Sceince cannot explain how Existence "Exists"...or can it?

MODS- im not shure if i can quote or refer from another forum, i just think this would be the quickest way to explain the story. Please correct me if im wrong.

Found here is a conversation on another forum that originaly started off as a simple or rather complex question on the purpose of our existance. As you read on it begins with simple answears based on peoples beliefs, but eventually evolves into a massive sceince vs. religion debate that i feel the Mods closed too soon.

Physics is based on an action-reaction basis. Everything has a cause. If you trace these causes back infinately, you have an infinity. The problem lies within. If the universe has been here infinately, it is ultimately impossible that we would have gotten to today. After all, it's impossible to traverse an infinity.

This in my opinion cannot explain the origin of existance itself, but for the universe to begin, something would have came from nothing therefore counteracting anything that sceince has to explain it.

Q: What makes existance "exist"??
A quote from Ulti_DOOM-

what were all trying to get at is what made the "creator" i think this is something that no human can possibly comprehend...no religion nor sceince can explain it.... and your right FghtinIrshNvrDi, something cannot be made from nothing. plane and simple. But what made existance - exist?? who or what made it? sceince? god? to say that something cannot be created from nothing when applied to this doesnt make sence...we are all looking to find the answears for the things in life that have never been answeared, its in the curious nature of humans to do this- but after some long hard thinking... this is now my conclusion.....
There are some things that man is not meant to know.

...this is also my own conclusion, what im asking is for everyones own intelligent opinion on this. i just think here would be one of the best places on the net to start...i HOPE mods wont close this thread its a very good topic.

*Use "ex" for external quotes*

[edit on 20-4-2006 by dbates]

this universe has probably not existed for infinity.. what if a universe is kind of like a galaxy.. and there are others around like a massive amount.. pure speculation here how do we know when we can't see that far.

Even thought we as a species or a planet might as well call it infinity since its probably involving too much time to have any useful comprehension for it.,

But if there are more universes or not still does not answer where did it come from or why.. so nothing solved here either.

I really doubt anyone will come up with the answer to why we or the universe exist (:

For us existing it might be just a coincidense.. but maybe life is not all that complex and it has evolved on lots and lots of planets.. but that still does not make our lifes more than a coincidense (:

Originally posted by The Collective

but for the universe to begin, something would have came from nothing therefore counteracting anything that sceince has to explain it.

I tend to agree, despite being a huge science geek. The problem of existence itself may not only be untouchable by science, but by logic or anything else at all. A scientist might tell you that existence of the Universe (with a big "U", meaning not just our patch of it) is just a brute fact. Or they'll say that the "nothingness" that existed before was unstable and decayed via some quantum fancy junk.

Now THAT's crazy. Because if nothingness is unstable, then it's not nothing. It's a very specific something that has the property of being unstable. So where did THAT come from?

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

I know I have my own beleifs that sway my decisions. That being said, the perverbial "start" of the universe is very much incomprehendable at this time. Call me crazy but coming from a scientific standpoint, to have an initiative force spring into action from nothingness could quite possibly be considered....supernatural?

I can almost garuntee that all of us here today will know at one point. Weither its the way we think we'll find out or not.

Hey man, there are five fundamental measurements of matter that don't derive from something else.

Mass
Length
Time
Charge
One other that I can't remember

Velocity, acceleration, weight, force, energy, momentum, voltage, capacitance, resistance, induction, conductance - all of these use the other five as their bases. But we can't even explain what mass is. Sure, we have a lot of insight on nuclear attractions and the new string theory... but nothing concrete.

Even Newton said that he can explain WHAT happens... but not why.

We've come a long way since one belief of the stars being pinpoints of light shining through the cover of sky with heaven on the other side, or thunder caused by gods bowling, etc. We also know we do not start out as tiny already-formed persons in the womb, nor is there a physical smallest unit, like a tiny ball. E=mc^2.
It's fascinating to delve more into our Universe with science, looking for explanations. Humans have always wanted to explain existence in that sense. What is Existence?--whatever is occurring at this very moment. What are You doing with that Energy? Yes, simple and complex at same time, like Loving One Another.
(I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you knew the ultimate answer, what would you do with it, because over time humans have had many ultimate answers.)

Time did not exist before the universe came into being. So to ask what came before the universe got started is meaningless. Whatever you imagine was there before the universe began (the monobloc, the cosmic egg, God or what have you) didn't actually exist, because there was no time in which it could have existed. Counter-intuitive, I know, but one gets over it.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Time did not exist before the universe came into being.

That's not strictly true. OUR time didn't exist before the big bang, and to ask what was before that is indeed like asking what's north of the North Pole.

BUT - just because there's nothing north of the north pole doesn't mean there's nothing ABOVE it, or off the surface entirely. What I'm getting at is that reality may be many universes, some of which have different dimensions from each other. Some have no "time", some do. Maybe this big multiverse has its own timeline that's not really related to the ones in "baby" universes like ours.

So, you see - it *would* make sense to ask about stuff that happened before our universe existed and its clock was started. After all, a clock has a history from before it was set running (it's parts being put together, etc..)

I think that it is so hard to apply what you see withing the universe to something external to the universe, as you are always thinking from within the universe - sort of like the way you cannot percieve the 4D perspective, but you can TRY to apply things to it, but it will be impossible to see it correctly.

Something HAS to exist for something NOT to exist. Simply because if nothing existed, nothing could not exist. (yeh confusing).

Anyway. Why ANYTHING ever started it rather weird. Makes me feel odd. Why does there need to be a point where nothing existed?

The question of existence can not be answered by us humans. We are simply not able to answer that question.

Every possible answer to this question leads to a paradox.

It does not make sense that the universe is eternal, due to cosmic background radiation. The big bang is a fairly established model, almost proven.

If the universe was created by someone, then this someone is God.

But the question still remains: who made God?

If God is eternal, why the universe can not be eternal?

If someone else made God (let's say God A), then who made God A?

If this universe is a simulation, then who created the universe of those who run the simulation?

These are philoshophical questions that have been bothering mankind for as long as it exists...and we will never get an answer.

The question about existence is similar, if not the same, with Goedel's incompleteness theorem: for every system that can be explained with laws, there are always some laws that are axioms, i.e. we accept them without ever being able to try to comprehend them or being able to prove them.

It seems that the universe is such a system.

I would tend to go with the idea that we are not intelligent enough etc. to know the true nature of the Universe.

I think it's a distinctly human trait to wonder or even believe that the Universe has a beginning or an end. I give equal credence to the theory that the Universe has no beginning and no end. To me, it is just as possible because I recognize the fact that as a human, it's only natural for me to conceptualize a beginning/end to everything.

Originally posted by transparency
I can almost garuntee that all of us here today will know at one point. Weither its the way we think we'll find out or not.

I agree, i think we are limited in our ability to comprehend in our physical bodies. Im sticking with masterp's answear, it does lead to a paradox... but that would mean that its impossible to explain it using physical means. But still its easy to say the universe was made by God then what made God? ect...ect... but the big question is what made existance? or what makes it what is the very force behind physical being? when you think about it, a reigious belief would be more plausable than any sceintific explanation on this because simply...science cannot answear it.

I believe that we are only a part of a much larger being/biosystem, who's birth was the big bang. The multiple universe theory would mean that our universe is only a part also of a larger universal community of architects/engineers/gods. Of course the question still remains who created these super beings and so on infinitum. The purpose of our existence could merely be as microbes within this entity, it at least gives us a purpose for being here albeit in a minor role..Great discussion topic, though there are no sure answers to this question. My thoughts on this at this thread..

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Cheers
M4S

(edit to fix link)

[edit on 20/4/06 by mojo4sale]

Originally posted by mojo4sale
I believe that we are only a part of a much larger being/biosystem, who's birth was the big bang.
My thoughts on this at this thread..
www.abovetopsecret.com...
[edit on 20/4/06 by mojo4sale]

That would make us like bacterium in a infinantly sized bio sphere. Good explanation, but it kinda takes away the purpose of our inteligence.

Now, the great metaphysical challenge I was thinking about the other day is this- many people believe that once you die there is nothing- "dust to dust" as some would say. Yet "nothing" is still either basic intuition or a category of thought dependant upon a biological framework. So what happen's after we die? It certainly won't be oblivion since that is a "thing" dependant upon your still living faculties.

Originally posted by Nakash
Now, the great metaphysical challenge I was thinking about the other day is this- many people believe that once you die there is nothing- "dust to dust" as some would say. Yet "nothing" is still either basic intuition or a category of thought dependant upon a biological framework. So what happen's after we die? It certainly won't be oblivion since that is a "thing" dependant upon your still living faculties.

The physical being can be destroyed, but the "soul" (as some would put it) cannot. I think free will remains when you leave physical being. what makes you think that its dependant on living faculties? its trapped in it.....Were off topic here

Of course! Thus we have a rational basis for religion. Yet the question still remains- the realm of the soul is different in essence/quality than that of the physical world. How can we (if we can) describe it? How can we "know it" so to speak? How is it connected to this realm?

I love this question. I have often thought about it, and it is my sole basis for believing in a supreme being/force (God). It's just crazy to think about.

Everything we know is has a cause and effect, but if this is so, how is existence possible, we tend to believe that nothingness must come before something. But nothing can come from nothingness, therefore something must have somehow always existed. And this something must be the supreme being/force (God).

- Attero

Originally posted by Attero Auctorita
we tend to believe that nothingness must come before something. But nothing can come from nothingness, therefore something must have somehow always existed. And this something must be the supreme being/force (God).

- Attero

Exactly. I couldent have put that better if i tried So existance is infinante but the universe is ever-expanding, and in the end (whatever your beliefs are) God or a God created the universe into being...thus why i strongly believe that ALL religions originate from a single source reguardless of your beliefs, we all worship the divine being that made existance into being.
It still doesnt give us any apparent purpose.
[edit on 20-4-2006 by The Collective]

[edit on 21-4-2006 by The Collective]

Physics is based on an action-reaction basis. Everything has a cause. If you trace these causes back infinately, you have an infinity. The problem lies within. If the universe has been here infinately, it is ultimately impossible that we would have gotten to today. After all, it's impossible to traverse an infinity.

I've heard this statement before, but its flawed, VERY flawed. (Though still insightfull) Its used quite often in the arguments that religions put forth.
The problem is that no, its not impossible to traverse an infinity.
Take for example space itself. Its scalar dimensions are infinite, yet we are capable of traversing a small portion of those dimensions within that infinity. Or else we would not be able to move about. Time itself works much like a dimension, in that its quantities are somewhat scalar, and descrepancies are often referred to as "hills" of time.

we tend to believe that nothingness must come before something. But nothing can come from nothingness, therefore something must have somehow always existed. And this something must be the supreme being/force (God).

Nope.
You can get something from nothing.
Youre just not thinking mathematically.

We can safely assume that at one point during the infinite length of time, there was nothingness. A total void. 0.
We can safely assume that we are in fact interacting with a positive amount of matter as we speak. (We'll call it 1... cause boolean is simple).

Now, we started with 0, we now have 1 (WITHIN our universe)... therefore, to complete the equation, there must be a -1 also within our universe.
1 + (-1) = 0.
There exists an equal amount of negative matter and energy within our universe as there is positive matter and energy.

0 -> 1 and -1
Hence you have created something, from nothing.

The real brain masher is the fact that if you ADD EVERYTHING in the universe together, the sum is NOTHING!
Therefore, the universe itself is actually nothing at all!
Think of that next time youre smoking a joint!


Its all very basic math. Stuff we immediately overlook when thinking of something as complex as the universe.


Now that the religious have posed a question as such, and I have given you your answer...

If some GOD created EVERYTHING... what created god?
And the creator of god...
And its creator...
THAT I know you CANT answer.

Unless of course you say that he came about as a result of the big bang... the divide of nothing into positive and negative quantities which resulted in our universe.

But then again... that answer is already claimed by science.