Gaza raids a "War Crime" -- Amnesty International

Seems that Amnesty International particularly looks down on the raids in Gaza by the IDF, which left 1500 homeless and 8 Palestinians dead and 80 injured.

Is this not the WORST way to fight terrorism and the WORST way to gain a positive world image for Israel?

How many more suicide bombers will this create among the 1500 left without homes? Any estimates? I would say that maybe, MAYBE 0.5% of Palestinians would be willing to kill themselves to kill Israelis.

So that's 8 from this "raid" alone.

www.news24.com...

"Gaza raids a 'war crime'
14/10/2003 14:44 - (SA)

London - Human rights group Amnesty International on Monday condemned Israeli raids at the weekend on the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah that killed eight Palestinians, describing the operation as a "war crime".

"The repeated practice by the Israeli army of deliberate and wanton destruction of homes and civilian property is a grave violation of international human rights and humanitarian law... and constitutes a war crime," Amnesty said in a written statement issued in London.

"Amnesty International calls on the Israeli authorities to put an immediate end to the practice of destroying Palestinian homes and other properties, and of using excessive, disproportionate and reckless force against unarmed Palestinians... which frequently result in the killing and injuring of unarmed civilians, including children."

Amnesty also urged Palestinian armed groups to "immediately halt" deliberate killings of Israeli civilians.

Eight Palestinians were killed and about 80 injured during the operation launched on Rafah on Thursday night, which Israel says was aimed at destroying tunnels used to smuggle in weapons from across the border with Egypt.

About 1 500 people were also left homeless in Rafah refugee camp, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees has said. "

Quite strange how "Amnesty International" labels this action as "war crimes", yet fails to mention that these very same Gaza raids have been going on for a very long time.....why haven't they mentioned that or claimed the same declaration about this 'raid' when the numerous others occurred? Just some examples at how long this has been occurring.....yet no mention of any condemnation by Amnesty International...till now...:

As reported on Friday, Mar 07, 2003, by The Hindu:
"Israel strikes back; 11 Palestinians killed"
Link:
www.thehindu.com...

As reported on December 14, 2001, by CNN.com:
"New Israeli raids hit Gaza"
Link:
www.cnn.com...

Just do a 'google' on "Gaza Raids".....many, many articles on this re-occurring event. One striking thing I have noticed in every occurance is that these 'raids' were always....always a reprisal for a suicide bombing, mortar attack on Jewish settlements, etc., etc.,.......
Also, seems strange that in half or more of these 'raids', that the Israelis are finding weapons caches, etc., also.

Israel has claimed, and has been claiming since the raids began, many years ago, that these "refugee camps" have been used by militants and Hamas, etc., as staging areas for a variety of attacks against Israel.

Seems that in one of those "Gaza raids," on or about Jan. 24, 2003....this was one of the many things found:
"Arafat Memo Details Funds Funneled to Hamas"
Link:
www.israelnationalnews.com...

Excerpt:
".....documents seized during military operations in Gaza reveal that Yasser Arafat and members of his Palestinian Authority hierarchy are, at least, aware of monies collected for Hamas under the guise of charitable donations.

The IDF reports that the Charity Coalition (Aathlaf al-Hir) - an umbrella organization of Islamic charities that solicits contributions from Arab countries and the West - transfers funds to associations identified with the Hamas terrorist organization in Judea and Samaria. The documents seized by the IDF reveal that PLO leader Yasser Arafat was kept apprised of meetings held in Yemen between senior PA coalition members and Hamas terrorists, and of contributions collected from Judea, Samaria, and from among Israeli Arabs. The head of the Palestinian Preventive Security Service in Gaza, Rashid abu Shoubak, sent a memorandum of the meeting to Arafat wherein he stressed that the Charity Coalition financially supports the Hamas terrorist infrastructure."

The recent attacks of late....have been targeted at Hams connections, again, to these same "refugee camps" that Israel says has also been the staging area for Hamas terrorist operations against Israel.

In particular....Rafah:
"IDF In Pictures"
These pictures are of the weapon tunnels.
Link:
www.idf.il...
(That same link will take you to other pictures for various days that this "raid" campaign has been happening)

"Background Material: Rafah Weapon Smuggling Tunnels"
Link:
www.idf.il...

"The Rafah Smuggling Tunnels: A Historical Background"
Link:
www.idf.il...

"U.S. sees Rafah demolitions as 'self-defense'"
Link:
www.haaretz.com...


Seems that Egypt has claimed "no knowledge" of these tunnels and the "refugee camps" uses........
It's always a tragedy that innocent lives of men, women, and children are killed but I see nor read any of that same sorrow when I read about suicide bombings, mortar attacks, etc., when it happens to Israel....strange huh?

I wonder if Amnesty Interantional has been seen fit to read the "evidences and proofs" of these "refugee camps" and in the ongoing "Gaza raids".......from the past few years of this continued occurance?!

Using your favorite word play Jakomo....."what goes around, comes around......." Sad and tragic that innocent's will and are invovled though. I'm actually miffed' at why these terrorist keep hiding and operating among innocents when they know, and yes...they know, that those same innocents will probably suffer for their doings....or should I say..."war crimes"?


regards
seekerof

So they admit that they are at war now?

Takes two to tangle.

I guess terrorism is warfare now.

Seekerof: "Quite strange how "Amnesty International" labels this action as "war crimes", yet fails to mention that these very same Gaza raids have been going on for a very long time.....why haven't they mentioned that or claimed the same declaration about this 'raid' when the numerous others occurred? Just some examples at how long this has been occurring.....yet no mention of any condemnation by Amnesty International...till now...:"

Come again? Amnesty International has been condemning Israel since AI started. Here's an example:

web.amnesty.org...

"During Amnesty International's visit to Israel and the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian Authority (4-11 February 1996), the organization will be raising with political authorities concerns about human rights violations and recommendations for improving the human rights situation in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

The following summary highlights human rights violations committed since 4 May 1994, when the Israeli government and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) signed the Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area. It also reviews the key recommendations Amnesty International will be making during its visit."

They've been condemning both sides.

"It's always a tragedy that innocent lives of men, women, and children are killed but I see nor read any of that same sorrow when I read about suicide bombings, mortar attacks, etc., when it happens to Israel....strange huh? "

Um, that's because Israel uses hugely disproportionate force over a captive population. Call me crazy, but I figure Amnesty International has a better handle on what is really happening than you do. Suicide bombings make me sad, massive demoliton campaigns into refugee camps that are the MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREAS ON THE PLANET make me angry.

"I wonder if Amnesty Interantional has been seen fit to read the "evidences and proofs" of these "refugee camps" and in the ongoing "Gaza raids".......from the past few years of this continued occurance?!

Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical over your .il sources and Israel National News quoting "IDF officials" or "unnamed government officials". Again, AI is a far less subjective monitor.

"Using your favorite word play Jakomo....."what goes around, comes around......." Sad and tragic that innocent's will and are invovled though. I'm actually miffed' at why these terrorist keep hiding and operating among innocents when they know, and yes...they know, that those same innocents will probably suffer for their doings....or should I say..."war crimes"?"

First off, fundamentalist suicide bombing is not a "war crime" because it's not an organized military. It's a terrible terrible thing, but you can't prosecute anyone in the Hague for it (say, like Sharon for Sabra and Chatila).

Secondly, as to your feelings that these terrorists are to blame because they surround themselves with civilians (which is pretty deluded), answer me these questions please.

1). How many "terrorists" did the last raid in Gaza get?

2). How many of the 1500 homes destroyed belonged to terrorists?

I'll even take a few .il sources if you've got em.


jakomo

Jakomo said:
"Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical over your .il sources and Israel National News quoting "IDF officials" or "unnamed government officials". Again, AI is a far less subjective monitor."

Jakomo....your skepticism of any source but yours and those you will accept as "reliable" are quite well known here. I don't give a rat's-azz if you are skeptical of my sources...they are news sources none the less.
Whether you accept a "source" as acceptable is a matter of your opinion over anyone else's, including mine. Do you really think that the sources I use are the only one's reporting the IDF views of these current raids? LOL, I could have used others....but whats the point...you won't and don't accept them anyhow, correct? I use the IDF sources because I know that they are "Jewish sources" or "Israeli sources"...thus causing you to disregard them....!


Jakomo said:
"Um, that's because Israel uses hugely disproportionate force over a captive population..."

That's is total BS! woozers...if #z could walk, it would be after reading this propagandish BS.


Jakomo said:
"but I figure Amnesty International has a better handle on what is really happening than you do...."

I would hope so....I would almost figure likewise for you there Jakomo..........mute point.


Jakomo said:
"Suicide bombings make me sad, massive demoliton campaigns into refugee camps that are the MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREAS ON THE PLANET make me angry."

Yeah.....think about that next time that a suicide bomber blows himself/herself up in congested Israeli club, or bus, or densely populated shopping/merchant area, etc.....talk about getting angry..........
To you, it gets ignored and called "justified.".....right...

Jakomo said:
"First off, fundamentalist suicide bombing is not a "war crime" because it's not an organized military..."


Jakomo.....what kinda #z do you smoke dude? You telling everyone here that reads this that "terrorist" acts....including suicide bombings is NOT are not "war crimes" and are not of an organized militant group?!? Hamas is a organized militant group.....dude, they buy weapon's, rockets, rocket propelled launchers, etc....and they are not an organized militant organization that can be technically associated to militaristic operations and structures?!? Get freakin' real.....more excuses backing these TERRORIST ACTS...simple as that...you can "justify" them and call them what you wish....the Israelis think otherwise, thus they put foot in their azz'z, etc. (you know...what goes around comes around thingy). It's really a shame that Arafat cannot be brought up for those very same "war crimes" that you claim upon Isreal/Sharon, etc.! It's an even greater shame that even the Palestinian's are silently saying, as others in the Arab world are, that are after "real peace", that peace will never really and truely come to the area until Arafat is gone! Think back to what his current appointed PM has said recently.......Bet on it?!


Jakomo said:
"How many "terrorists" did the last raid in Gaza get?"

Jakomo...cry me a 'river' ok....your song is being played on the world's smallest violin.....!

Let me rephrase that: You read the EVIDENCE that I posted showing what is being found in those past week operations in the Gaza??!

"Background Material: Rafah Weapon Smuggling Tunnels"
Link:
www.idf.il...

"The Rafah Smuggling Tunnels: A Historical Background"
Link:
www.idf.il...

Reported by Haaretz, on 10/14.....Oh, and this is reported by the AP, as well, as other news sources:
"IDF reenters Rafah in latest action to expose arms-smuggling tunnels."

"Israel Defense Forces units Monday night entered the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip in the latest operation to uncover arms-smuggling tunnels.

Dozens of armored vehicles were operating in the area to the west of the "Brazil" IDF outpost on the Israeli-Egyptian border, according to Palestinian sources. Tank and gunfire were reported on the scene.

Two columns of armored vehicles entered the camp from two directions, heading for a different section of the camp from the one targeted earlier, Palestinian witnesses said.

Military sources confirmed that an operation was underway, saying it was a continuation of the three-day mission that began Friday.

The IDF on Sunday had completed the first stage of its operation to uncover arms-smuggling tunnels in Rafah and had pulled its troops out of the refugee camp, redeploying them along the Egyptian border.

Eight Palestinians, including two children, were killed during the 72-hour operation that began early Friday morning. Some 100 houses were destroyed, leaving about 2,000 people homeless, according to assessments by International aid organizations and UNRWA officials.

Earlier Monday, IDF forces operating in the West Bank village of Arabeh arrested a Palestinian man planning to carry out a suicide bombing attack in Israel.

The man was arrested along with four other Palestinian terror suspects in the village, located southwest of Jenin.

Itim reported troops arrested 15 Palestinian terror suspects villages in the Jenin area on Monday. The curfew on the northern West Bank city is now in its ninth day.

IDF troops carrying out a predawn arrest raid Monday in the Askar refugee camp in Nablus arrested three more wanted suspects, including one Hamas operative. An Islamic Jihad man was also arrested in another raid in the West Bank city.

Military sources: operation underway in Rafah is a continuation of three-day mission that began Friday. (AP)"

Let me say this also about "sources"......
Envision two hands here....on one hand, the leftist media says that the Palestinian do not have any homes and they sleep on the street, and on the other hand, the media then says that the IDF destroy's their homes.
Just like the word: "occupation"........
On the one hand, the leftist media say they are "occupied", and on the other hand, they say the IDF is making "incursions into their" territory....
Question: How can the IDF be entering a place they are already supposed to be "occupying"?
Terrorist propaganda and this fake word of "occupation".......play of words and meanings....

Try finding a university with great resources and documentations on this conflict and you will find the information based on the truth, not reading propaganda materials from leftists sources or anti-Israeli sites, media, etc.....


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Terrorism is 3rd generation warfare yes. Who cares if Amnesty International says Israel is at fault. Israel has a right to defend itself, and I'm glad they are our ally. No other country has been under attack by fundamental Islam for longer.

Ever since the 1940's Israel (Jews) HAS BEEN under attack by Muslim countries. The Muslim fundamentalists want all Jews dead, period.

The Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights were all taken in the War of 1967 when Egypt, Syria, and Jordan were lined up on Israel's border ready to invade again. I think the desicion to give it back should be up to them. To secure democracy in Middle East they will probably have to though.

I know that if Canadians were coming into our country, one after the other, blowing up innocent women and children in Pizza Huts and Mcdonalds I would demand the Canadian Government to crack down and stop it. Otherwise fundamentalists living in Canada would become American targets I hope.

All you fr*ckin liberals want to do is sit on your hands and hope the problems of the world go away on their own (like Homer Simpson hiding behind a curtain). The problems don't go away ont heir own, they must be dealt with or else the problems grow to be monsters for our children to take care of.

If you're a liberal before 25 you have no heart. If you're a liberal after 25 then you have no brain. - Winston Churchill

Israel should stop killin people, who have done nothing wrong. I do not agree with Israels actions

WHAT!?!?

Israel should stop killin people, who have done nothing wrong.

So all Israelis who have been blown up on busses or eating lunch were guilty of something?


Puleeaasseee

no, Israel are the ones going into the gaza strip and killing anyone they can find

Amnesty International can go and jump off a cliff..

The whole gang..

I dont give a # what those assholes say!!!



Bunch of tree hunging hippies..



Im not saying that the RAID was good or just.. it was just something IDF felt had to be done.. done in war against Palestinians..

War is ugly, but i hate when some 3rd party is sticking their nose in somebody elses business and saying:

"This is war crime.."

"You are terrorists.."

Etc..

Amnesty International # OFF!!!

Let them deal with it between themselfs.

Originally posted by Fry2
WHAT!?!?

Israel should stop killin people, who have done nothing wrong.

So all Israelis who have been blown up on busses or eating lunch were guilty of something?


Puleeaasseee

Btw boys..

THEY ALL NEED TO STOP THIS!!!

Both sides.

yeah, they should learn to live in peace. Get around a table and talk, no one dies that way

Seeker: Nice. I mention that your sources might be a little suspect, and I ask you how many terrorists were captured and you quote the IDF's website to prove what they found. I'm STILL laughing.

I wrote: ""First off, fundamentalist suicide bombing is not a "war crime" because it's not an organized military..." "

You retorted:
"Jakomo.....what kinda #z do you smoke dude? You telling everyone here that reads this that "terrorist" acts....including suicide bombings is NOT are not "war crimes" and are not of an organized militant group?!? Hamas is a organized militant group.....dude, they buy weapon's, rockets, rocket propelled launchers, etc....and they are not an organized militant organization that can be technically associated to militaristic operations and structures?!? Get freakin' real.....more excuses backing these TERRORIST ACTS...simple as that...you can "justify" them and call them what you wish...."

Well I'm not justifying suicide attacks at all, I'm saying they're not a "war crime". They're murder. The murder of civilians.

When someone is caught for planning a terrible murder, they are prosecuted for it. Murder 1, manslaughter, whatever.

When it's something systematic, and performed by a nation's military, it's called a WAR CRIME. No criminal court. It takes place in international court (like the Hague).

Clearer?

I just joined Amnesty International early last week. We're quite unpopular for protesting against "oppressive" governments and violators of human rights. Yeah, it does get annoying sometimes.

www.amnesty.org...

I think Isreal really needs to work out it's problems.

Hmmm...ok....

This was posted in 02/27/2003 by IMRA:
"An Analysis of Amnesty International's Reporting of Human Rights Issues in the Arab-Israeli Conflict"
Link:
www.imra.org.il...

And this on June 2, 2003, by FrontPage Magazine....:
"Amnesty International - Not a Reliable Source"
Link:
www.frontpagemagazine.com...

Excerpt:
"In the name of �protecting human rights,� AI regularly and repeatedly endorses the political goals of the PLO, including its �right� to its own state, and has condemned Israeli �occupation� of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since when is taking one side in a territorial dispute a form of defending human rights? Would AI have supported Hitler�s demands that the Polish, Czechoslovakian and French �occupations� of what he regarded as �German lands� - all in the name of human rights? AI has also discovered that Palestinians have a �right�, not only to their own state in the West Bank and Gaza but also to migrate to and reclaim any property inside Israel they may wish to claim. Of the countless hundreds of millions of people who became refugees after World War II, the only ones with such an AI-recognized �right� are the Palestinians.-----
"BACKGROUNDER: The Palestinian Claim to a �Right of Return�"
Link:
www.camera.org...


"AI has never had anything to say about the rights of Jews who were evicted from Moslem countries to reclaim their property, and their property was worth perhaps a hundred times more than anything left behind by any emigrating �Palestinians�. It is only a question of time before AI discovers that Tories evicted from the US by patriots in the 1770s also have the right of return."

Further on:
"AI�s own wesite links to a large number of pro-terrorist, anti-Jewish, pro-violence, extremist organizations. The Anti-Defamation League has repeatedly denounced AI for its anti-Jewish bias (www.adl.org...), although has praised AI efforts on behalf of the imprisoned Iranian Jews who were �convicted� in an Iranian show trial. AI has participated in anti-Israel political rallies and collaborated with Arab and other anti-Jewish propagandists."
"Links To Israeli And Palestinian (Human Rights) Organizations"
Link:
web.amnesty.org...

"When neutral observers aren�t so neutral"
Link:
www.jewishworldreview.com...

"Quite clearly such a �right to return� to their homeland does not evidently apply to any Jews. AI has sponsored events in which the PLO�s official spokeswoman, Hanan Ashrawi, spoke, leaving little doubt about AI�s political position regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict. AI has participated in many other Bash-Israel rallies and events."
"Truth Demolition in an Anti-Israel Road Show"
Link:
www.camera.org...

"Amnesty International�s website is crawling with Israel-bashing materials, containing the telling heading: "Israel-Occupied Territories - Stop Destroying Lives." AI has been sharply criticized by the �NGO Monitor� for this sort of politicized bias and for selective reporting and outright lying."
"Israel and the Occupied Territories: An ongoing human rights crisis" (look to top of the page)
Link:
web.amnesty.org...

"An Analysis of Amnesty International's Reporting of Human Rights Issues in the Arab-Israeli Conflict"
Link:
www.jcpa.org...

"Other forms of anti-Israel bias fill AI reports. In his recent publication, Illegal Construction in Jerusalem, Justus Weiner documents how AI chose discuss how Amnesty chose to employ one Anthony Coon as their expert on town planning to review Israeli actions in Jerusalem; Coon had demonstrated a long-term commitment to defending illegal Palestinian construction and had previously worked for two years as an employee of the PLO front group Al-Haq. Weiner provides evidence of another instance of a former Al-Haq employee writings its reports on the Middle East."
"Anti-Israel Bias at Amnesty International"
Link:
www.israelaustin.com...

"The Jerusalem Post discovered that AI reports had been retroactively altered in order to make Israel look bad. Jewish newspapers have often denounced the anti-Jewish bias of AI. AI also has a long history of promoting moral equivalence between acts of violence by terrorists and acts of violence by those defending themselves against terrorist atrocities."
"Children Under Fire"
Link:
www.honestreporting.com...

"AI has repeatedly endorsed the attempt by Belgium and similar busybodies to indict American and Israeli leaders for �human rights violations� for such things as their campaigns against terrorism. AI has been dramatically indifferent to violations of the rights of Jews by Palestinians"
"A "Sane" Visit by Amnesty International in Jerusalem?
Link:
israelvisit.co.il...!sane

......and the article goes on........Amnesty International is a joke....I tried to indicate this before but nicely....They can take that Nobel Prize, given in 77', and literally shove it.....media is "biased" and good ole Amnesty International is no freakin' different!


Here's a comment from a fellow friend and what he said about AI:
"When I was young and dumb, I joined AI. I repeatedly asked for information about political prisoners and "prisoners of concience..." All I ever received was fundraising letters. I got really pissed off and received a letter from some AI official, telling me how expensive it was to do the work they're doing. I never did get a single name of a prisoner, or the name of an official to send protest letters to."





Yeah...."I'm STILL laughing" too.......


regards
seekerof



[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Seekerof]

I hope Israel pay you well Seekerof, you sure do dedicate a lot of time to their cause.

You always spin these topics into defending the Israeli side to the death. WHY?

news.bbc.co.uk...

"This attack is just another step into uncontrolled chaos in the Middle East that is caused by unstable establishments and polarised irreversibly by the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict and rising Islamic extremism - it's hopeless.
Abdo Shair, Jordan


Both sides are guilty in this conflict; it's a circle of blood, circle of revenge. Indeed, perhaps the US is in favour of Israel. However almost all other leaders of western countries do take the Palestinians' side. We're all victims in this conflict. People from both sides get killed on a daily basis.
David, Israel"



[Edited on 16-10-2003 by Peace]

Yeah..

Seeker,

I am with Peace in this.. partly..

Why to defend Israelis?

It is much easier to make Anmesty to look bad, than make these people see that both Palestinians and Israelis are just doing what they feel need to be done..



War is ugly, and methods are ugly.. lets not waste our time to try to explain these hippies what is war about..



Btw, in my mind both sides have a just cause in here.. (Jews and Palestinians..) and what they need to do is a peace..

Palestinian (PLO) Police or Para-military.. what ever must join forces with IDF to rid the place of the fanatics..

It should be quite easy actually, as there arent really that many around..

Peace said:
"You always spin these topics into defending the Israeli side to the death. WHY?"

First off Peace and Fulcrum.....
Who the hell do you people think you are to accuse me of "spinning" anything?! Peace....you think that you have the correct answers on anything and everything....!! To tell me and then demand an answer to "why" I "spin" issues!!!?? You people think you God or something? Is there a historical book missing in a few universities on this that I am not finding or has been removed to your freakin' houses?! Just who the freak do you people think you are?!

Secondly...ALL NEWS is "biased", just as mankind's recorded history is "biased." Any worthy historian will agree and atest to this very fact.....and fellas...get your heads out your collective azz's and recognize this!!! You have noexception to the truth...you own no exclusive rights to the truth! Who in the hell are you to think, for one freakin' minute, that you are even onto ther truth or even have it?

A number of you flatly accuse Israel of "wrong, evil, war crimes", etc., #z for anything and everything Israel does....question: Are you the leader of Israel or Palestine? Are you making national security decision's foer them? Hell, freakin' NO. So that makes you, as well as me, outsiders.....giving observational comments that mean squat. You take sides with what you feel is the truth and I take sides with what I feel is the truth.
Speaking of which.....prime number one example is "Amenesty International"! They are "biased"....plain and simple....I presented the case last night and gave the links......and all you can do after that is say: "WHY"?!?!?

You guys are sad excuses of people who try to dictate, through belittling questionings, comments, statements, that an individual poster here has no right to object or try to prove something otherwise then it was presented! If one does not conform to others views and opinions...then you get told and asked the question: "You always spin these topics into defending the Israeli side to the death. WHY?"...........

" I always spin?" Peace.....you better be careful with your accusations buddy.....very careful....! You "spin" about as darn well as anyone of us here can! I got your "spin"!!!


Fulcrum/John......sometimes I seriously wonder about you.....your first post to this thread contradicts your second.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 16-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Seeker,

Cool off!!!

I am with Peace in this.. partly..

Why to defend Israelis?

They need no defending.. that is the only thing that i agree with Peace!

That is my 'partly'..



Nothing more..

Israelis can well defend themselfs..

Seeker: Okay, let's pick apart your diatribe point by point.

"Who the hell do you people think you are to accuse me of "spinning" anything?! Peace....you think that you have the correct answers on anything and everything....!! To tell me and then demand an answer to "why" I "spin" issues!!!?? You people think you God or something? Is there a historical book missing in a few universities on this that I am not finding or has been removed to your freakin' houses?! Just who the freak do you people think you are?!

Um, you use predominantly Israeli sources, and when we say ISRAEL IS COMMITING WAR CRIMES, you deflect, and put up quote after quote on how all Palestinians are terrorists. You never directly answer the question of Israel's illegal behavior without bringing some historical fact that vaguely backs your assertion. Never your own words, always someone elses.

And we think we're reasonable human beings, fyi, as I'm sure most people reading this thread can attest to.

"Secondly...ALL NEWS is "biased", just as mankind's recorded history is "biased." Any worthy historian will agree and atest to this very fact.....and fellas...get your heads out your collective azz's and recognize this!!! You have noexception to the truth...you own no exclusive rights to the truth! Who in the hell are you to think, for one freakin' minute, that you are even onto ther truth or even have it?

So first you rail on ANYONE for accusing you of bias and then you say EVERYONE is biased. Why don't you pick one?

"A number of you flatly accuse Israel of "wrong, evil, war crimes", etc., #z for anything and everything Israel does....question: Are you the leader of Israel or Palestine? Are you making national security decision's foer them? Hell, freakin' NO. So that makes you, as well as me, outsiders.....giving observational comments that mean squat. You take sides with what you feel is the truth and I take sides with what I feel is the truth.
Speaking of which.....prime number one example is "Amenesty International"! They are "biased"....plain and simple....I presented the case last night and gave the links......and all you can do after that is say: "WHY"?!?!?"

Now you throw in the BIAS again. This time Amnesty International. An anti-Israel bias, not anti-Semitic, I guess. And WHY would they have an anti-Israeli bias? Because Israel is committing war crimes. That's why.

"You guys are sad excuses of people who try to dictate, through belittling questionings, comments, statements, that an individual poster here has no right to object or try to prove something otherwise then it was presented!"

ROFL. You say we're SAD EXCUSES OF PEOPLE because we belittle? What exactly do you call calling people sad excuses? I would say that's a tad belittling, wouldn't you?

And you can TRY to prove anything you want, but when we see through your feeble attempts, you flip out.

"If one does not conform to others views and opinions...then you get told and asked the question: "You always spin these topics into defending the Israeli side to the death. WHY?"...........

" I always spin?" Peace.....you better be careful with your accusations buddy.....very careful....! You "spin" about as darn well as anyone of us here can! I got your "spin"!!! "

You post up link after link APPARENTLY backing up your stories, but if anyone actually bothers to read them, they would find the non-.il ones are pretty fair. Far fairer than you.

From YOUR links:

web.amnesty.org...

"The human rights situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories continues to deteriorate. In the past three years the Israeli army has killed more than 2,200 Palestinians and some 800 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian armed groups. Most of the victims were civilians and included more than 380 Palestinian children and some 100 Israeli children. The Israeli army has assassinated more than 100 known or suspected Palestinians militants, killing scores of men, women and children bystanders and injuring hundreds others.

The Israeli army routinely use F-16 fighter jets, helicopter gunships and tanks to bomb and shell densely populated Palestinian residential areas and Palestinian armed groups deliberately target Israeli civilians in frequent suicide bombings in buses, restaurants and other public places.

In the past three years the Israeli army has demolished more than 3,000 homes and damaged thousands more, and has destroyed large areas of agricultural land and other public and private properties, and water and electricity infrastructure. Thousands of Palestinians have thus been made homeless and tens of thousands have lost their main or sole source of income.

The disproportionate and discriminatory restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have had a devastating impact on the lives of three and a half million Palestinians. Closures, military checkpoints, curfews and a barrage of other restrictions confine Palestinians to their homes or immediate surroundings"

You call that Anti-Israel bias? Really? They're the FACTS. All of them are FACTS. How is reporting the facts a bias?

You spin like a dredel, Seeker.


jakomo