Where owning guns is a crime, only criminals will own guns...

Finally, it comes out! In a society so ardently anti-gun, you find blossoming gun violence, simply because the criminals are very aware that there is no armed citizenry to oppose them.



We are overrun by gun crime, says police chief
By Nick Britten
(Filed: 10/10/2003)


A chief Constable admitted yesterday that his officers are being forced to ignore thousands of burglaries, thefts and car crimes because they are swamped by increasing drug and gun violence.

The public's perception that the police were not interested in low-level and non-violent crime was underlined when Steve Green, Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire police, said there was not enough money or officers available to investigate all crime.

The emergence of Britain's drug and gun culture had impacted on his force to such an extent that "something had to give".

This year there has been on average more than one shooting every week in Nottinghamshire.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2003/10/10/ncrime10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/10/10/ixportal.html

Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Great movie, talks about gun violence and stuff. It was saying that in the Uk they had about 200 gun death a year. Geramny 150. France 100 Canada 68. and the good ole US of A: 11,500. Those numbers arent exact. of cource. now I wanna move to Canada.

yep seems like my country is falling apart at the seems, and all this when im being chased about a lame speeding offence! 5 MPH over limit on a motorway, now i ask you is that what the police force in UK should be wasting thier time on? Its insane!

you speak the truth dr. Some action has to be taken.

Originally posted by dreamlandmafia
Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Great movie, talks about gun violence and stuff. It was saying that in the Uk they had about 200 gun death a year. Geramny 150. France 100 Canada 68. and the good ole US of A: 11,500. Those numbers arent exact. of cource. now I wanna move to Canada.

Is in that movie where they link the possession of guns to fear ?

Well I don't think these numbers are that representative...

It lack of some points of consideration;

- Population of country.
- Population of that country who lives in heavy Urban environnement.
- Average Education of that population.
- Wealth of that population.


Maybe these points are explaining these numbers... It makes me think to that philosoph, Jacques Rousseau, who was thinking that initialy the human is of good nature, but when he meets society, he begins to compare himself and envy other peoples... That's how, for him, human becomes evil.

Altought I'm not for guns, exept hunting rifle, I still do not agree that these numbers are objective.

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by dreamlandmafia
Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Great movie, talks about gun violence and stuff. It was saying that in the Uk they had about 200 gun death a year. Geramny 150. France 100 Canada 68. and the good ole US of A: 11,500. Those numbers arent exact. of cource. now I wanna move to Canada.

Is in that movie where they link the possession of guns to fear ?

Well I don't think these numbers are that representative...

It lack of some points of consideration;

- Population of country.
- Population of that country who lives in heavy Urban environnement.
- Average Education of that population.
- Wealth of that population.


Maybe these points are explaining these numbers... It makes me think to that philosoph, Jacques Rousseau, who was thinking that initialy the human is of good nature, but when he meets society, he begins to compare himself and envy other peoples... That's how, for him, human becomes evil.

Altought I'm not for guns, exept hunting rifle, I still do not agree that these numbers are objective.

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

Ok, lets look at the reasons you sited for why these numbers don't work. You state population. Well, it doesn't take a genius to do the math and find that the gun murder rate in the USA is about 10 times other countries.

Ok, you mention heavy urban environment. Someone else in another thread mentioned that Canada has a low population density and that is why we have a low incidence of gun violence. It is true we have a low population density, but that doesn't mean we don't live in urban enviroment. If we take manitoba for instance. 75% of the population of that province lives in one city. I am sure countries like England and Japan have a high amount of people in urban environments.

Next you site education. It may be true that the USs education is lagging behind these other countries, I am not sure exactly, but I doubt it is far enough behind to cause 10 times the murder rate.

Next you mention wealth of the country. The US has a higher GDP than these other countries. I guess you are saying that wealthy people are more likely to kill people with guns, well I guess they can afford them.

A good try at an explanantion, but I don't think those are the reasons Salem.

I have lived in both countries, I can tell you this; the US is a country in love with guns, way more so than Canada.

Originally posted by greenkoolaid

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by dreamlandmafia
Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Great movie, talks about gun violence and stuff. It was saying that in the Uk they had about 200 gun death a year. Geramny 150. France 100 Canada 68. and the good ole US of A: 11,500. Those numbers arent exact. of cource. now I wanna move to Canada.

Is in that movie where they link the possession of guns to fear ?

Well I don't think these numbers are that representative...

It lack of some points of consideration;

- Population of country.
- Population of that country who lives in heavy Urban environnement.
- Average Education of that population.
- Wealth of that population.


Maybe these points are explaining these numbers... It makes me think to that philosoph, Jacques Rousseau, who was thinking that initialy the human is of good nature, but when he meets society, he begins to compare himself and envy other peoples... That's how, for him, human becomes evil.

Altought I'm not for guns, exept hunting rifle, I still do not agree that these numbers are objective.

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

Ok, lets look at the reasons you sited for why these numbers don't work. You state population. Well, it doesn't take a genius to do the math and find that the gun murder rate in the USA is about 10 times other countries.

Ok, you mention heavy urban environment. Someone else in another thread mentioned that Canada has a low population density and that is why we have a low incidence of gun violence. It is true we have a low population density, but that doesn't mean we don't live in urban enviroment. If we take manitoba for instance. 75% of the population of that province lives in one city. I am sure countries like England and Japan have a high amount of people in urban environments.

Next you site education. It may be true that the USs education is lagging behind these other countries, I am not sure exactly, but I doubt it is far enough behind to cause 10 times the murder rate.

Next you mention wealth of the country. The US has a higher GDP than these other countries. I guess you are saying that wealthy people are more likely to kill people with guns, well I guess they can afford them.

A good try at an explanantion, but I don't think those are the reasons Salem.

I have lived in both countries, I can tell you this; the US is a country in love with guns, way more so than Canada.

Well Green, Obviously you misunderstood me...

Canada is Urbanised, but your comparing cities such like Chicago, New York, Washington and Los Angeles with our urban environnement; Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver ( for the biggest ones )... I wish that you already noticed that New york city has more population than the entire Province of Qu�bec.... Making a comparaison between our Urbanism and their wont prove anything. That's why I said "heavy urban".

Wealth of a country doesn't mean that the population will be wealthy;

I guess you are saying that wealthy people are more likely to kill people with guns, well I guess they can afford them.

Happy to hear your opinion but, No, that wasn't what I was saying.

You make me say the inverse of what I meant, Poverty and Crime are always ( mostly ) going together. That's what I meant.


It's about the second time you misunderstand me... Does my english is that bad ?

[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Salem]

Ok, New York is an exception, there is not too many places on earth the size of New York. But other countries have cities comparable in size to the other large cities in the US. But without the murders.

As for my supposed second misunderstanding, I was being sarcastic. I know you meant that poverty equals more murders. What I am saying is that the US has the highest standard of living of any of the countries listed on Bowling For Columbine, so therefore, you arguement is not true.

Oh yeah, the only sentence that made no sense and where your english was actually bad; was the sentence where you asked if your english was that bad.

Not that my above sentence is much better.

" A chief Constable admitted yesterday that his officers are being forced to ignore thousands of burglaries, thefts and car crimes because they are swamped by increasing drug and gun violence. "


No ... not forced ... They CHOOSE too. Instead of doing thier job's they're gunna let # go all because they might get shot in the line of duty? DUH DER ... detards ... They KNEW what might happen when they joined the force. They took the risk.

One thing to point out in the analysis of gun deaths versus population, population density, average income, ect, is that different areas of the US have different gun laws.

It is rather easy to legally buy a gun in say Tucson AZ, just walk in, select one, fill out a Form 4473, let the dealer call NICS, pay for it and leave. In NYC on the other hand, you have up to a 6 month waiting period.

It is very VERY interesting to point out that the cities with the most restrictive gun control (NYC, DC, LA, Chicago) all have the HIGHEST crime rates...

Originally posted by greenkoolaid
Oh yeah, the only sentence that made no sense and where your english was actually bad; was the sentence where you asked if your english was that bad.

Not that my above sentence is much better.

Well not so bad for a college english grade .

Any way I wish Canada will never allow free guns policy.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Salem]

I stick to bladed weapons and corssbows. Heh... how can they ban something you can make yourself? It didn't work during the Prohobition, it isn't going to work with knives.

What is your knife going to do at 200 Yards?

Just wondering.

Nothing wrong with owning a gun. I mean if the government lets us buy them then it MUST be ok... right... I think not. Personally I disagree with any ordinary guy having a gun but if it's for the safety of others (Policeman, FBI, ATF) then I'm ok with it.

My knife won't do anything... but the crossbow, however... is something else.

Granted, guns have a purpose... but when they come knocking on your door and take them, what'll you do? Or when they raise the prices of ammo? Can you re-load yourself?

If you had to hide in the woods for a long time, is your ammo in water-proof containers? Do you have an infinite supply?

I know I don't... but a new bolt head can be made... hell, I can re-use my old bolts... can't do the same with bullets.

I would say the problem in the US is a disconnection from reality. To many, their perception of life is shaped by what they see on TV, or what they think is hip or tough or whatever appeals to them. THey are obsessed with their image and reputation, and have lost their empathy for others, lost their ability to comprehend the consquences of their actions for anyone save themselves. So you have people who are entirely selfish and value the lives of others very little. Add to that the popularity of "urban" ghetto/thug style culture, what can you expect but violence? Guns arent the problem....no concept of reality is the problem. People no longer care who they are....only what they are, and that what they are is better and badder than everyone else. For men, its to be tough, fearless, and without empathy....heartless.....for women, its to sacrifice anything for image, and to not be "overshadowed" by men.

(I do realize those are generalizations....but when talking of those who commit a large percentage of violent crimes, those generalizations are quite accurate.)

Man den you don�t want to life in South Africa

21 000 people were murdered in South Africa last year, a woman is raped every 23 seconds in South Africa. According to a study by Unisa, based on police information, a million women and children are raped annually.

And 75% of Murders where Gun related
Gun-related deaths stand at more than 30 a day.

Believe me its bad here we are every day afraid that someone is dona shoot you or hijack you�re car from you and cell hone crime is totally bad thy mugged me about 3 weeks ago and take my cell from me and you cant do anything and all the people only look no one will help thy are to afraid to help. I�m gust glad to be still standing.

The criminals kill for cell phones here.

And you can get a gun easy but you cant use it only the criminals if you shoot some criminal
In you house, I mean in you�re house you go to jail nice hay.

Be glad you don�t life here��.

I'll tell ya why the numbers in Bowling for Columbine don't work. They're completly fabricated. You watched a movie, a film. Made for entertainment. ET,s not gonna stick his glowing finger up your backside anymore than Mr. Moore is going to tell you the truth.

What DR posted is fact, what you watched there was a made up movie script.

We've covered this 6 times in ATS so far. Its wasted bandwith. Eventually someone has to come up with the link to the interview where Mr. Moore admits that he fabricates to make movies. It doesn't make him a bad guy, it just realizes the difference between the big screen and reality, something I think we all could remember from time to time.

Originally posted by Twisty
Nothing wrong with owning a gun. I mean if the government lets us buy them then it MUST be ok... right...

I think not. Personally I disagree with any ordinary guy having a gun but if it's for the safety of others (Policeman, FBI, ATF) then I'm ok with it.

Heads up. You have no personal safety, other than that which you provide for yourself. The Supreme Court made this obvious fact even clearer when it ruled in a case where a lady was raped and beaten while the cops didn't show up for hours that there is no individual security guarranteed by the government.

Furthermore, the second amendment was protecting the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms, in case one day we have to take back the nation from tyranny or arbitrary rule. This would not be done by the army, the FBI (which is not supposed to have weapons except for defense, not what has blown into today), or any other governmental agency.