Why is race such a taboo subject?

I agree with you, riley. I don't like having "White Guilt". I want to be rid of it. Unfortunately it's not as simple as taking out the trash. Discussions like this thread help me to shed it, though, a little at a time. It's not an easy thing to just change one's mind about something like that. Simple, yes. Easy, not necessarily.

Give me time.

Ceci. Nothing to apologize for. Everyone has bad moments, from time to time. No big deal.

America, perhaps like no where else on Earth, is one place where we conciously attempt to be "color"blind. We aren't perfect, no. There still is a ways to go, and I acknowlege that. Perhaps a sign of just how far we have come, is the dust up that occured when Mr. Snow uttered that phrase. Would the same have occured even as recently as 30 yrs. ago? I am thinking unlikely. That is, of course, my own opinion, and may or may not be valid.

I am still unsure what is even meant by the phrase "White Guilt". Am I supposed to feel bad because blacks have been poorly treated in the past? OK. Then I guess I do to a certain extent feel it. Yes it was a bad time, and bad things happened. But I fail to see how attempting to instill a feeling of guilt in a group or groups of people for an institution, slavery, which was forcibly abolished more than a century and a half ago; helps in any way to bolster relations between the two races? Am I just not seeing it?

I know that I am not as sensitive to this topic as some. It might have something to do with the fact that I attempt to judge, as has been so eloquently phrased by Dr. King, "by the content of their character". I make no great claims to enlightenment, but I try. Which I suppose is all any of can do.

riley,

You have raised a lot of good points that made me take a step back and think deeply for a while. Let's see if I can give you a clear answer.

Originally quoted by riley
Even though you apologised.. you accused me to contributing to my own race attack before [[paraphrase] "something you may have said to provoke" are you going to be really honest now or do you want me to quote you?] you gave no explanation for the assumption so I still do not know whether you doubted my story, and therefore my charactor because of me or because of my colour.

For that, I apologize for. Sometimes when I write, I get too wordy. Or the other fact is, I write these posts sometimes late at night. It would be easy to think that I would be "blaming you" for your attack. But, I didn't then. And I don't now. Yet, you still weren't happy with my answer and that made me feel horrible. I must have really wronged you with what I said. And for that, I am very sorry.

On the bright side, I do think more carefully about my responses to people--especially after last week. So, your frankness about my answers to you did not go unheard.

I want you to know, however, I do consider the stories and emotions of other races of people (in this case, White)--especially when they are victims of racism. This is what I wrote to BH on the first page of this thread:

Page 1
Thanks Benevolent Heretic for saying that. I think that it is important to note that racism does not exclusively happen to a select race. It happens all around the bend.

And I expressed sympathy again--for BH's case of racism on page 2:

page2
It hurts me especially when Benevolent Heretic tells her stories of trying to make connections. She was trying to make connections and was rebuked. What she experienced was unjust. And I am very sorry it happened to her.

So I have expressed sympathy for whites on this thread. And not only here. I will always care about people regardless. I can understand your suspicion, though. But, I just wanted you to know that.

About framing questions on this thread and whether they are to get various response about Black people:

You see, riley, BH asked me a similar question when this thread started. I told her that I framed certain questions about race to get people talking. Generally throughout this thread, there are questions that are generally open for everyone to answer. But yes, I have included "racially specific" questions as well (such as "What is "white guilt"?; "Why are Jews and Blacks pitted against each other?" What is a "model minority" [I had especially asked for Asians to answer this one]).

So, no, I have not framed the questions to get opinions about how Whites feel about Black people. I don't know why you thought that. But if that's what you thought, I'm very sorry. Usually when there are questions, I sometimes don't think of a specific race at all. I just throw them out there. But, they are questions written from my experience, I guess. But don't forget the many times, I've "nagged" people to come up with their own questions too. Some have.

So, my questions are not "tricks" to get people to reveal their feelings about Blacks. On this board, there are plenty of posters who express their opinions about Blacks simply on their own. They do not need me to encourage them. As for other races too, there are plenty of people who just say what they want and not think twice. Read the immigration threads. They were notorious for broadcasting the feelings some posters had about different races.

Originally quoted by riley

I was extreamily disapointed with their initial reactions and their endless apologies for racism that they were never responsible for. As I remember.. someone even apologised and called themselves a racist for being 'too nice' to blacks. People should apologise when they have wronged someone.. if it's just because they are white it is self depreciating.

Well, people have different points of view regarding certain issues. Not everyone is going to agree in unison. That is what makes a discussion unique. On this board, I have witnessed people post racist things and feel no guilt about it. And there are others who are quite apologetic. You might find the feeling of guilt distasteful, but others don't. We can find a middle ground. That's why we're hashing it out here.

I had written an entire essay on this issue called "Between "Guilt" and "Having a Conscience". It was addressed to BH in regarding the definition of White Guilt. Here's what I said:

Page 10
We've got to take terms like "White Guilt" and throw it out the window, imho. It is as bad as the N-word in my point of view. It stigmatizes people for caring and feeling emotions for other people. Showing concern for others should never be negative.
[...]
So, in essence, we must not feel guilty, but still have a conscience about things and people. That is the most important thing to take away from the lessons of guilt. We only have to say sorry for the things we do. It's sad that people have to dredge up all this history and force others to feel accountable. Instead, educate with history, society and politics. Critically think about it and then try to place it in today's context.

Well, that's one half of your inquiries answered. The next part will be in the succeeding post.











[edit on 28-5-2006 by ceci2006]

You asked about how I view white people as stereotypes. And I told you that I'd think about it and get back to you. So, I will do my best to answer your question.

Originally quoted by riley
It's a shame that despite all your calls for honesty about how people REALLY feel about 'blacks' you couldn't do the same about whites.

Stereotypes

To be honest, most of the time I don't think about white stereotypes because I have dealt with different types of Whites my entire life. So, it's not really a big deal. However, for other people their pre-conceived notions contribute to their fear and assumptions. So, here goes.

1)the rural white southerner with the gun rack and the stars n' bars on the back of his truck.
2)the snotty white girl who looks down on everyone because "daddy gave her the money".
3)the impetuous "finger-wagger" who feels they are "giving advice" to people of color.
4)the burn-out stoner who surfs
5)the pious, church-going white lady who does a good acting job being religious, but isn't in action especially towards people in color.


There you go. There are some of the "types" I think in my head depending on the places I go. There are plenty others, but this doesn't really rule my life. I don't go around with these concepts as I meet people and talk to them. The only exception is when I get into the "deer in the headlights" situations.

Besides, I would like to thank yo for keeping me on my toes. It's good to take a step back and reevaluate my thinking about people and things from time to time. And like I said before, we are all "works in progress". We continue to evolve and move forward. So, you can't stay in a stagnant position regarding your attitudes about other people.

I have to especially thank BH for reminding me of that this week.



[edit on 28-5-2006 by ceci2006]

As I continue to gather my thoughts to address some of the larger issues this far, I am going take time to answer a few short messages at this point.

Originally quoted by Seagull
America, perhaps like no where else on Earth, is one place where we conciously attempt to be "color"blind. We aren't perfect, no. There still is a ways to go, and I acknowlege that. Perhaps a sign of just how far we have come, is the dust up that occured when Mr. Snow uttered that phrase. Would the same have occured even as recently as 30 yrs. ago? I am thinking unlikely. That is, of course, my own opinion, and may or may not be valid.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for your comments regarding the events of last week. I appreciate you for being understanding about what happened--especially where it ended up. Because of the subject matter posted and some of my responses, there are still a lot of bruised feelings. I've done my best to apologize, but in some cases the damage is done.

This leads to the second point. Yes, we in America are gradually moving forward about our attitudes regarding race. But, sometimes there are hot-button issues that cause a regression in race-relations. During those points in time, we have to be especially vigilant, especially when it has to do with restricting civil liberties of a certain group of citizens. Furthermore, a lot of think that because the Civil Rights era happened, racism is gone. It's not. It happens every day. But, some people can see it. Other people choose not to see it. That is the difference. But, we have to continue to talk about these issues from time to time to keep a check on our attitudes.

About Tony Snow: I think "dust-up" is a pretty accurate term for what happened on that thread. It is amazing what occurred between each other and our responses. I do recognize that "tar baby" has two different meanings. But the one I'm most familiar with is the negative one. That is what I was trying to get other people to recognize and admit. But for most responses (not all), no one would tell me that they consider tar baby has the legacy of a racial slur. I still wonder why to this day. Some people acknowledge the two different meanings. But others don't. And they refuse to. And some, pessimistically, never will. So you're right. It is a milestone that we are having that discussion at all.

And that is also why I decided to make peace with it and move on. No more could be done.

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

To be honest, I don't have the strength or desire to read through the entirety of that other thread. The negativity (from all sides) makes me a bit ill. I hate it when good threads 'go south' like that. It's so sad.

I don't even have it as one of my subscribed threads anymore. Just like "English as National Language", both threads are now blocked out of my mind. I think I started them both off wrong and they ended up disastrous. I regret for even introducing the subject matter. They both did generate a lot of negative energy and I am not proud of that. I'm ashamed. I regret them. Sometimes, I wish I could erase both threads from the server and get rid of their essence for good.

I also think of the aftermath and I wonder if anyone had gotten anything out of those two threads. I can't answer that question. But I think about it a lot.


I will answer JackofBlades and others later in a future post. Keep patient! Ask questions!


[edit on 28-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Sometimes when I write, I get too wordy. Or the other fact is, I write these posts sometimes late at night. It would be easy to think that I would be "blaming you" for your attack. But, I didn't then. And I don't now.

:shk:
Why did you apologise then?
Actually.. it's easy to think because you did.. you also said to "stop blaming all blacks' when I never even mentioned skin colour [and he wasn't black anyway].
Paraphrased: "I'm sorry that you misinterpited my words as racist Riley." ..a better apology would've been "I'm sorry I was racist Riley." There is a big difference and I'm hoping you are now able to realise [for yourself] what it is. Personally I believe deep down know what I mean but are reluctant to admit to it publically.. regardless I did not misinterprit anything.
For the record.. I'm not offended but it is the princible of the thing. Please do not take my decision about not wanting to stay in the discussion personally as I do like you.. I just feel it has proven itself to be unproductive and repetitive.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by riley]

Thank you, ceci, for those posts. Good stuff.

I don't have any questions right now but I do have something to say. (duh!)

Originally posted by ceci2006
I do recognize that "tar baby" has two different meanings. But the one I'm most familiar with is the negative one. That is what I was trying to get other people to recognize and admit. But for most responses (not all), no one would tell me that they consider tar baby has the legacy of a racial slur. I still wonder why to this day.

Maybe this will clarify. Before this Tony Snow fiasco, I had never heard the term "tar baby" to my conscious knowledge. When I saw it in the news, I thought WTF is that? I pictured in my mind a literal baby made from tar, but thought surely that isn't what he was talking about. I had to read about it to discover the different meanings and why it would be an issue with some people. So here I am, a woman in her late forties, who has 'been around the block' a few times, dated interracially, internationally, has lived all over the US, including Biloxi MS, been immersed in different cultures, is educated and open-minded and I had never heard the term to my conscious knowledge.

Ceci, when people tell you something, they're probably telling you the truth. There are those few on discussion boards who get off on lying, but that's the vast minority. So, it's possible that the reason no one 'admitted' that tar baby was a racial slur was because they honestly didn't see it that way. You tend to get your mind made up about what people think or feel and you won't let go of it even when they tell you the contrary. Sometimes you just have to take what others say as the truth instead of thinking you know better.

I don't know if that's what happened, but that's how it looked to me. Being 'head-strong' can be a good trait. Just ask me. But when it gets in the way of truly understanding and communicating openly with others, it can be detrimental. Just ask me...

Benevolent Heretic, I will answer you comments later. But yes, I am "headstrong" (I will say more about this) about certain principles. And yes, that is part of the reason why the fiasco that happened on that thread. I will talk about my interpretation about it and give you my take.

And yes, I do in a debate take my side like a bulldog and not let go. And sometimes I think so much about keeping that side, that I miss the little nuances of what people say. See. I told you I'm not perfect. Being headstrong is great sometimes, but it can be a personality flaw. It's just like my mom says sometimes, "You're being hard-headed." So, my stubborness is something that I have to work on. But, I will explain this a little more on this concept later.

Thank you for your opinion, though. I am beginning to learn more about this entire situation now that I have time and distance to think about it.


riley,

I don't know what to say to you. You have pretty much made up in your mind that I solely want to gear these issues toward blacks, that I blame all whites for racism and for their racist attacks and that I don't give whites sympathy. I don't think I was being racist when I answered your first posts. I was merely giving advice.

I will bury the axe with you, riley. I am sorry for being racist in your case. I still think in my mind I wasn't, but if you perceive what I said was racist, then I give you the most humble apology. The reason why I am doing it because I feel I have wronged you and to keep the peace.

But, you have constantly preached things about me and this thread as that aren't true. That is why sometimes I have to be careful around you because if I use any expression you might perceive it as being "racist" and "geared for Blacks" and "against whites". I would also like to request that you must also get out of your crystalized position of refusing to acknowledge the suffering of other races except white people. However, before now I have refrained from asking as such because I wanted people to give their true feelings.

Well, let's say the the tables were turned and instead of fighting for the acceptance of the racism of Whites by other races and you were talking about Blacks, well, other people on the Board would accuse you of "screaming about race". I ought to know. They slapped that signifier on me. And they pretty much make it stick on nearly every thread I participate in.

So, be lucky there are not people who take your comments as "playing the race card" or "whining about race". Believe me, I see what you mean. However, I have tried to keep an even keel of things on this board. And I'm sorry that you think that our subject matter is tired. But I will keep on writing what I think about certain issues whether or not you think so because I believe that this issue is important for all people.

My only suggestion is to start your own thread about racism against whites and talk about it with others who share your views.

The only other recourse, is to be a little bit more forgiving of other people and their opinions. It's okay to be frank, though.

Originally quoted by riley
Actually.. it's easy to think because you did.. you also said to "stop blaming all blacks' when I never even mentioned skin colour [and he wasn't black anyway].
Paraphrased: "I'm sorry that you misinterpited my words as racist Riley." ..a better apology would've been "I'm sorry I was racist Riley." There is a big difference and I'm hoping you are now able to realise [for yourself] what it is. Personally I believe deep down know what I mean but are reluctant to admit to it publically.. regardless I did not misinterprit anything.
For the record.. I'm not offended but it is the princible of the thing. Please do not take my decision about not wanting to stay in the discussion personally as I do like you.. I just feel it has proven itself to be unproductive and repetitive.

Where did I say "stop blaming all Blacks"? Where do you get the impression that I was being racist toward you in the first place? And what is it with the assumptions? This is what I mean by the "finger wagger".

You think, despite your frankness, that you are pious in your assumption that Blacks blame whites. So, you haughtily accuse me of being "racist" even despite evidence that proves the contrary.

Sigh. If you can find evidence that proves the contrary where I have blatantly said things like "tell me what you think about Blacks" or "stop blaming all blacks", I will try to refute them and address your principles.

Will you apologize for being racist for your assumptions about what I've said in this thread? I hope so in the most optimistic sense. But my cynic's p.o.v. tells me, no.

Again, thank you for your comments. I like you too. And I hope that your feelings change about the thread. Please come back if you do change your mind and have other questions or comments.













[edit on 28-5-2006 by ceci2006]

I only took issue with it was because you apologised, then you basically retracted the apology and said it was because you were just overly 'wordy' which meant you failed to understand my original gripe. At any rate it doesn't really matter.. I just thought it was abit of a backflip. I read through the first few pages to make sure I didn't misinterprit you and I didn't. The only thing I misquoted you on is "You shouldn't blame all blacks." when you actually said "You shouldn't blame an entire race." [which I didn't].. I'm sorry for that part.

Again.. it was the princible of the thing.. you seem to really have a problem with terms like 'tarbaby' etc. when you have actually pushed the limits yourself. You seem to think you've been misunderstood.. maybe others have as well.

Tell me your view of what I said. Because obviously it is the principle that you want to address. If you think I am so unfeeling toward whites, say so and bring up proof. Especially if what I said is what you didn't misinterpret. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you are highly more sensitive about reading things below the surface. So do it. I will try to answer your grievances.

But in my defense, I don't have periphial vision when I write my opinions. And in that manner, do you think I should be allowed to have opinions? Or only should you be allowed to have your opinions only?

That's the main question here.

After that, I don't presume to have the clearing house of knowledge about what Black people think. I have said such. I can only speak about my point of view. As you do too.

But, I wonder if you are blind to the racism of other races because you solely fight for the acknowledgement of your own so much? That's the impression that I get from you. It is much easier for you to attack others about their racism than deal with your own.

Well, I guess for two headstrong ladies like us, riley, we both have a problem.




[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Political correctness, nothing more.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Tell me then, what is your view of what I said? Because obviously it is the principle that you want to address. If you think I am so unfeeling toward whites, say so and bring up proof.

I don't think you are unfeeling towards whites.. I think that you have lost some of your misconceptions from earlier.

But in my defense, I don't have periphial vision when I write my opinions. And in that manner, do you think I should be allowed to have opinions? Or only should you be allowed to have your opinions only?

Of course you can have opinions.. this thread is quite long already. Not sure where you get the idea that you can't.. I was annoyed at earlier assumptions and had my say but I do regret bringing it up again.

But, I wonder if you are blind to the racism of other races because you solely fight for the acknowledgement of your own so much? That's the impression that I get from you.

There have been several anti-white threads in this forum.. [one was from a guy who was condemning bi-racial marriages- he said blacks should be 'pure'.] I first joined this disscusion they were begginning to get attacked so I dived in. I'm definently NOT blind to other racism.. all forms of biggotry piss me off but usually when the subject gets approached it soon talks about the evil whites oppressing blacks. Yes it happened.. but while we are looking at history we lose sight of the present.

It is much easier for you to attack others about their racism than deal with your own.

I don't consider myself to be racist so there's really nothing to deal with. I admit I don't quite understand it as it's just skin colour, something which becomes darker or lighter depending on the climate. IMO it's as trivial as hair colour so I'm not sure what the point is of trying to dig deeper in what should be a simple issue. People should judge others on skin colour [culture is a more complex issue, some are not very compatable which is why we have civil wars- but thats politics].

Well, I guess for two headstrong ladies like us, riley, we both have a problem.

I'm not headstrong!

[edit on 28-5-2006 by riley]

Hey riley,

Do me a favor. Would you link me to those threads? I would like to see them.

Btw, I am not racist toward Whites. I wish I could prove it to people not only that, but I'm not racist at all. Now do I have biases? Yes. Everybody does. And I'm working on them. And your right, my attitudes are changing.

Which means I am not a hopeless case.

See? The thread's not so tired after all. You brought your concern and energy to the thread. And there are others who do too.

So, I continue to thank you for your comments. And I continue to certainly urge you and others to ask questions.

Now it's true that from my dry, pointed writing that some people might perceive me of having a burr up my behind. I don't, but if it seems that way to you, don't be afraid to say so. Because, I do like people in general and if people are perturbed sometimes, it is okay to tell me. I will always try to remedy the situation.





[edit on 28-5-2006 by ceci2006]

I think it's on page 3-4, not sure which, but again it doesn't matter.. I should have dropped it. I don't really think that if someone makes a racist remark they should be branded for life or are even racist.. [unless they do it continually]some might be racist because they don't like an individual so go for the cheap shot.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by riley]

riley,

It does matter, because in your experience you felt you were slighted. I know if I were slighted in some way, I would make it matter. I did so on the "Tony Snow" thread--much to everyone else's chagrin. I also believe that if you say a racist remark, you aren't branded a racist.

However, if people make a habit of it, then someone has to intervene, don't you think? I think that this thread is useful because we--from our experience--can correct each other if need be. It is much better to notice than to ignore it. If you make someone notice their mistake, they have the chance to clear it up and explain themselves.

What I do not like are people who say a racist remark, yet ignores the fact that it is. That is what bothers me.

You and BH are people that say what is on your mind. I respect you for that. You both ask questions. That is something I also like.

But there are plenty of people who don't. They say anything they want without questioning the implications of what they said. And when you do bring it up and try to make them notice their words, they think you have "issues" or that what you're mentioning is a "conspiracy".

That bothers me a whole lot. That's also what happened on the Tony Snow thread. And because of that reason, things got a little hot under the collar.

I would like to tell you though that sometimes, I am rather awkward about what to say regarding race. So, I put my foot in my mouth. Hey, it happens. But I would never blatantly say anything to hurt anyone in a racist way just because I felt like it. Now, there are times that I used examples to show people an example (like in the Tony Snow thread), but I think that even those comments could be misinterpreted. But no, I would never just simply call someone something unrepentantly. There is always a reason behind my words. And I consider a whole lot before I post it. But it doesn't always work out smoothly.


But, never deny your experiences. Believe me, I do care about people in general even though because of my writing doesn't clearly say so. I wouldn't discuss this matter with you if I didn't care. I do. I wouldn't write these posts answering your questions if I didn't feel any empathy about your point of view.

Just think about all the other people who don't do this. They just say what they say and go on with their business. Nothing more, nothing less. No consideration of feelings at all.

For example, they would call another racial group "trash" and "garbage", clogging up the streets. And then, they would say that they aren't being "racist" in their outlook simply because they live around the said race when clearly they have definite opinions that can't be changed. And what is more, they continue to call the other race derogatory names while proclaiming that they will sleep well at night, doing so. Those people practice hypocrisy.

People from all stripes do this.

In that case, I would much rather have them just tell me where they stand and be done with it. Some posters on the Board are very consistent and clear about how they view other races in a negative light and are unrepentant. They will continue to view another race in a derogatory fashion and continue to say so on every topic without seeing the other side of the issue.

Now those are the ones that truly worry me.

Btw, riley, don't worry. I will try to seek them out. If I find them, I will post them here.





[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

Ceci, when people tell you something, they're probably telling you the truth. There are those few on discussion boards who get off on lying, but that's the vast minority. So, it's possible that the reason no one 'admitted' that tar baby was a racial slur was because they honestly didn't see it that way.

Benevolent Heretic, that was true in some of the cases. And I took it as such. Those that did admitted it had to do with Joel Chandler Harris' books. That's what happened at the very beginning with dbates' and darkelf's comments. However, there are others even though that they admitted this, had said that my view of the word was "idiotic" and embracing "lunacy".

Those were the posters I had a bone to pick over. They did not need to say I had "issues" and that "I had hatred in my heart for Whites" when I could pick out passages from this board of those very same posters saying racially derogatory things about another race.

One thing that truly bugs me is the fact that the posters that said that devalued my experiences and as a result, they made me feel that myself and others who felt this word was a racial slur need not be heard.

One especially felt bothered by the use of "collaborator" on another thread. I wonder why this word was being jumped upon as "hate-filled rhetoric" while tar baby was not?

You tend to get your mind made up about what people think or feel and you won't let go of it even when they tell you the contrary. Sometimes you just have to take what others say as the truth instead of thinking you know better.

I know. That comes from my stubborness. As I mentioned above, when I take hold of an issue, I grab it and never let it go. I tenaciously fight for that side until I've sucked out all the marrow. It's a good debating tactic, but uncivil in its outlook. I will promise to be more thoughtful in my approach to people's answers. But that doesn't mean I will leave my practice of being a tough interrogator behind. People sometimes have to answer for why they think the way they do.

In the end, it might seem that other people would think I was morally superior by how I voice my opinions sometimes. But in the end, I don't think so. I would much rather get to the truth of the matter. And some posters don't want to simply answer the question. There are people that are repressed when approached with troubling questions about their attitudes. Instead, they rather attack other people than simply being truthful.

But for the most part, you are right. I have to take people at their word.

I don't know if that's what happened, but that's how it looked to me. Being 'head-strong' can be a good trait. Just ask me. But when it gets in the way of truly understanding and communicating openly with others, it can be detrimental. Just ask me...

I know what you're saying. I'm the original headstrong, stubborn woman. On certain issues I have more confidence in, I can be shamefully blunt. And my bluntness can blow people away. Most of the time, I do not do that because I do try to understand what people are saying. I've also witnessed the detrimental effects of being stubborn so what you say here is true too.

But, a lot of time would be saved if people would simply state their opinion than playing around. That's how I see the attacking of character in general. Or, if people could be more open-minded and simply ask questions why I felt the way I did, I probably would have been less beligerent in that thread.

Although, I can be sarcastic as well. And sometimes because people simply believe "the truth" of a post, other posters can miss my sarcasm or sardonicism. As a result, I get into deeper trouble. Case in point, the two "poisined" threads. So, I have to be more careful when approaching sensitive topics because I find that humor, sarcasm or playing "Devil's Advocate" doesn't disarm people about such issues.

So, yes, I have to rework the way I approach topics, especially when posting my opinions. But I will not give up trying to defend my position because that is just as important too.





[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

posted by ceci2006

“When people tell you something [on these boards], they're probably telling you the truth.” However, there are others who even though they admit this, said my view of the word was "idiotic" and bordering on "lunacy."

I'm the original headstrong, stubborn woman. I can be shamefully blunt. My bluntness can blow people away. Yes, I have to rework the way I approach topics, especially when posting my opinions. But I will not give up trying to defend my position because that is just as important too. [Edited by Don W]

I am not going to repeat myself except to say the America is afflicted with racism which it seems it cannot get over. It is too bad and a national disgrace that so many politicians repeatedly exploit those groundless fears. The Willy Horton ads come to mind. The “pink slip” ads comes to mind. Many unapproving references to bussing [school children] come to mind. The constant substitution of “quotas” for the law’s “goals” and all that implies. The unending derision and lampooning of public university’s efforts to demographically integrate the student body. Well I said I wouldn’t do this then I did it. Sorry about that. I guess I was born a gadfly.

You cannot treat the malady until you recognize you have it.

It seems to fall to me to remind my fellow whites of their disability. For which effort I get very little thanks. Unlike Flip Wilson’s ‘Geraldine’ I offer “God made me do it!”


[edit on 5/29/2006 by donwhite]

Willie Horton was a law enforcement/rehabilitation case. When you try to make it a racial issue, you foment racism.

Originally posted by donwhite
You cannot treat the malady until you recognize you have it.

Ack! You just eloquently and succinctly stated in one sentence what I was going to make a long rambling post about!

Oh, well, I will anyway.

Years ago, my husband and I took some adult classes for generally doing better in life. One of the ideas was that to move forward in any direction, we first must determine where we are. Just as with a roadmap... it's totally worthless unless you know where you're starting.

One of the tests we took determined what sort of leadership traits we had. I'm sure you've all seen those personality tests that tell you which 'quadrant' you fit into... Well, turns out I'm what's called a "controller" by this particular test.

"What"? I thought... I'm not a controlling person! The test was flawed! So I took the test to some of my friends and asked them to answer it, not for their personalities, but for mine. And they did. And I was a controller. And they ALL agreed with the results! The point is, after much self-evaluation and shedding of negative connotations, I finally realized that yes... My name is Benevolent Heretic and I am a Controller...

*Applause*

This story is going somewhere, really. And I'd like to point out that no one is 100% in one quadrant. I also have traits that are fun, soft and amiable. Controller is just the prominent quality. And there is good and bad about each quadrant. One isn’t better than the other. Moving along…

So, I began to recognize and embrace the controlling traits within myself. I figured, given that I am apparently a controller, I might as well learn to live with it. One thing I realized is that trying to control someone else is one of the more destructive qualities of a controller. And that’s something I noticed that I did in my life. I had a natural tendency to control, so it seemed to me that other people were fair game.

But now, having realized this less-than-constructive behavior, and having realized and embraced the fact that I am a controller and there are certain behaviors I should watch for in myself, I was able to consciously decide not to control other people. The only person I can control is myself. Being aware that I am a controller is the only way I can take steps away from the destructive behavior that sometimes goes along with it. Accepting and embracing the fact (even though I was very resistant at first) that I have a controlling personality is the only way I could move into more healthy control of myself, instead of other people and things. I even wanted to control the test if you remember…

Now, here comes the point of this whole story. Yay! My husband and I decided that it’s one thing to be a controller and be aware of it. But it’s quite another to be a controller and not know it. Controllers who aren’t aware of it are the most unpleasant people. They’re bossy, they’re always right, they don’t back down, they always put themselves in charge and they speak their mind without constraint. And when confronted about it, they deny. They’re not willing to look at faults in themselves, but are more than willing to point them out in others. (Much of this comes from deep underlying insecurity.)

They can also be very loving, open-minded, sweet, generous, humble, beautiful people. Controllers are not bad people. But if they’re blissfully unaware of it, they can miss out on a whole lot of introspection and self-education that comes from really knowing who they are and what drives their communication with others. They can also turn people away, put them off. Because of their harshness, sarcasm, brutal honesty and desire to control the situation, many people tend to discount them as selfish and rude know-it-alls.

So… This is just some stuff I’ve learned since I discovered that I am a controller about 20 years ago. And I’m telling you Ceci, that not only are you a controller who isn’t really aware of it, you have racist tendencies and you’re almost totally unaware of it. I could go through these threads and pick out all the racist comments you have made, and there are many, more than anyone else in these conversations. But until you realize that there may be truth in my words, it wouldn’t do a bit of good because you would deny it and have an excuse for it, such as the fact that you’re not perfect or if only other people had spoken differently… No, you’re not perfect. And one of those imperfections is that you are quite racist.

We all are to a certain degree and we all have our imperfections, too, and if other people wouldn’t make us so damn angry, we wouldn’t say the things we do. But for you, a black woman, to be so “into” race and call racism at every turn seems a bit hypocritical to me. Just because a person is black does not absolve them from racism nor give them immunity from racism.

Let’s talk about ‘putting your foot in your mouth’. You have copped to doing this several times when you got called out for making a racist statement. What kind of an excuse is that? You make a blatantly racist statement, then brush it off by saying you ‘put your foot in your mouth’. That term means that something (the truth) accidentally slipped out. Or an idea one wishes to keep hidden leaks out in conversation. Think about that.

My main point here is that there is no healing racism in this country as long as we deny that we are ALL racist to some degree. And I’d much rather deal with a flaming racist who knows they’re racist and is right up front about it than one who is unaware and in denial, all the while pointing the racist finger at others.

Ceci, Instead of searching for racism in everyone else, I’m asking you to take notice of how hard you’re looking at the mote in your brother’s eye, while not fully considering the beam in your own.

posted by jsobecky

Willie Horton was a law enforcement/rehabilitation case. When you try to make it a racial issue, you foment racism
[Edited by Don W]

If you say so, JBecky

Explain, if you will, how coime you and Willie Horton are the only 2 people in America who think that?

posted by Benevolent Heretic

posted by donwhite

You cannot treat the malady until you recognize you have it.

“ . . my husband and I took adult classes for doing better in life . . One test we took determined what sort of leadership traits we had . . turns out I'm what's called a "controller" by this particular test . . I finally realized that . . My name is Benevolent Heretic and I am a Controller . . I'd like to point out that no one is 100% in [any] one quadrant. One thing I realized is trying to control someone else is one of the more destructive qualities of a controller . . now, I was able to consciously decide not to control other people.

Here comes the point of this story. Yay! [Controllers] can also be very loving, open-minded, sweet, generous, humble, beautiful people.

Controllers are not bad people. And I’m telling you Ceci, you are a controller who isn’t aware of it . . We all are [controllers] to a certain degree . . My main point here is that there is no healing racism in this country as long as we deny that we are ALL racist to some degree . . “

[Edited by Don W]

May I add my agreement, as edited, B/H, with your post?



[edit on 5/29/2006 by donwhite]