Pyramids at Giza were there BEFORE the Egyptians got there.

Originally posted by Cruizer
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against legitimate internet sources. There are whole books online now.

Said that I did,, yes? On the Pegasus site I have collected a lot of library links to just such collections of books.

The decent sites unfortunately have their dark reflections with sites pushing preposterous crapola.

The down side of freedom of speech and expression . But if you get a decent discussion board such as ATS, at least there is a better percentage of people willing to share ideas in a friendly manner. There is little that can be done about people that have formed ideas other than present your case in the best manner possible, but there are those willing to learn and those are the ones worth talking to. A martial arts teacher once told me that if he had just one student who truly understood his teachings and took them to heart to become a master in his own right, then his life would be complete.

My contention is simply why our friend Whatchamacallit is so sarcastic when he doesn't even have correct information about the subject. Anyone that mocks Petrie's and Edwards' careful observations and dismisses basic dimensional data doesn't deserve serious consideration as a participant in a discussion.

Sometimes I really wonder about those [general those, not pointing at anyone in particular] that spend hours a day in here hust knocking every new idea that comes along. I have seen labels on some avatars that say "subject expert" and while I mean absolutely no disrespect to those people, it would be nice to know just what their qualifications are. That label follows them to every thread.... so just which subject are they expert on, and how does any average viewer know that? I have asked respectfully numerous times for explanation of that, and have been met with silence.

One can always ignore the Whatchamacallits of the world ... but they have their uses. Many times in an attempt to prove me wrong, they have provided cool links to evidence I have been looking for... I wonder if that makes them turn red?

There is a lot open for conjecture on the trio at Giza and I don't particularly believe there is only one valid theory behind them. There are many plausible alternatives that we should be open to.

I may not be convinced that one or all of the pyramids at Giza are way old but I am confident enough to realize that I don't have all the answers and that anything is possible.

The old age of the Pyramid usually comes from them having been built before a major cataclism. My research has shown me [and others] that there was a major catastrophy. I won't bring details here now as its still a work in progress and all available on my site, but just for a moment lets say there WAS a really big catastrophy that involved most of the planet... IF that is true, then would that not wipe out most of what was there before?

Then there would only be traces left, such as the Giza group. There would have been survivors that would have tales of the old days before the catastrophy... I think you catch my drift...

What I do not understand about main stream scholars here is the selective picking of which of these old stories are the truth. The biblical version has been accepted by most in the west, and the east has the qu'aran version... both these are accepted as the absolute truth... both though do tell of mass destruction...

It has been shown that both these stories most likely have roots in Sunerian tales of disaster... BUT the Hindu's and the Tibertans also have stories... in those stories the destruction was much more catastrophic than the flood...

They talk of massive weapons, of flying machines and of ancient powerful races... yet for the most part the west ignores this as fairy tale.

So while it is true that there is no actual proof at this time on the actual age and who did build it, there is certainly enough material in old writings to make one think that there is another version than whats been accepted.

Perhaps what is needed is a new breed of researcher... one that considers both the scientific side and the esoteric side, because in my opinion the human experience is a combination of both... and somewhere in the middle lies the real truth.

It has been shown that both these stories most likely have roots in Sunerian tales of disaster... BUT the Hindu's and the Tibertans also have stories... in those stories the destruction was much more catastrophic than the flood...

more catastrophic than a disaster that wiped all but one man from the face of the earth
you wanna rewind that one and run it by me again

no wait
they didn't forget to turn off the pilot light on the oven as well did they
NOOOOOOOOOOO

[edit on 13-10-2006 by Marduk]

Originally posted by Marduk
more catastrophic than a disaster that wiped all but one man from the face of the earth
you wanna rewind that one and run it by me again

Yes sure thing...

The flood just wiped out critters... left a little water damage...

The catastrophy I refer to involves breaking up land masses, sinking continents and the like...

Not hard to understand the difference really...


Either way records got wiped out too... and if what you say is true that only ONE man survived in the whole world, that would mean ALL the ancient stories came from him...

But I guess when you live to be 900 years or so, you have time to come up with some real winners around the camp fire at mights.

also in the original story
he wasn't married
obviously that error got covered in later more fictional versions of the deluge myth


The thing I like best about the Noah story is that he built a ship out of planks in an age when everyone was using reeds and then afterwards when civilisation rebuilt itself they all went back to using reeds again for millenia
i asked a rabbi why this was and he said because Noah kept the details a secret
like yeah right whatever
so how do you know what his name was

denythestatusquo- Interesting concept that what we think are early pyramids are copies of the GP. I do know, in my heart, that nobody placed a bigazzed stone into its final position every 2.5 minutes for 23 years/5.0 minutes for 46 years job time.

As you say, duplicating the scenaro today is not feasible at all. Picture a crane at about the 200 foot level. Operator lowers main cable and hook to ground. Must have a pallet suspended by trio or quartet of cables to place stone on. Ok we have a ready-to-lift pallet and stone. Ground personnel attach hook to pallet cable fitting. Operator takes up slack slowly via radio command. Gets "OK" for full lift. Begins elevating the load up to the 300 foot height where work is proceeding. Obviously the operator can't raise too fast or the load will get to swaying. If he pulls at 10 feet per second it'll take 30 seconds to reach 300 feet.

Then the guys up top have to guide the operator by radio with diections like, "down, down, slow, left 2 feet, forward 1 foot, down," and so on. I've watched crews lower new sewer pipes into the opened street in front of my house and they took way more that 2.5 minutes from ground level to 8 feet down in the trench and carefully connect it to the previous section of pipe!

So now that the pallet is at the position at 300 feet the stone has to be moved off of the pallet somehow so the block fits exactly in its place for all eternity. Ever "walk" a big refrigerator into a narrow place in a kitchen after releasing the strap holding on the dolly? Crap that takes more than 2.5 minutes! What if the fridge is 10,000 lbs?

So now our crane operator has to lower the hook and empty pallet 300 feet down taking at least another 30 seconds. Ground crews detach it and guide him into position to hook up the next stone. NAW!!

Zorgon the flood is universal. Every culture has some version of it in their historical legends. Something took place for sure. And yeah epics like the Ramayana, the Vedas, the Yantra Sarvasva,the Surya Siddhanta, the Samara Sutradhara and the Mahabharata allgo into great length describing, well, technological things in ancient India. As you said, aircraft are included. But the level of details is so fine that it boggle the mind that these obscure unrelated sources were written with such imagination. It is obvious that a very thorough knowledge of the heavens abounded then which really shouldn't have until at least the Galileo era of telescopes. The atom and sub-atomic world was also perceived before modern microscopic observation devices also.

Chroniclers in times long begofe Jesus were able to describe a level of science and technology in detail that is frankly impossible to have gotten right by fanatsy imagining alone.

It would be nice to throw everything out that we think we know and start with a level playing field and open minds to assess the evidence and history of the past.

Originally posted by Marduk
The thing I like best about the Noah story is that he built a ship out of planks in an age when everyone was using reeds and then afterwards when civilisation rebuilt itself they all went back to using reeds again for millenia

Silly duck... there was also no way to get 14 of each species of clean beasties into that little tub... Don't you realize yet that the "Ark" was a space ship carrying the seed of the critters? Of course it was a secret... the wooden boat is the cover story, cuz who would ever be able to understand a space ship concept?

so how do you know what his name was

That has to be about the dumbest statement you have ever made...

I know many people with Top Secret clearance... I know their names, even where they live, but they still don't reveal their secrets..

:bash:

Originally posted by Cruizer

Zorgon the flood is universal. Every culture has some version of it in their historical legends.

Quite well put... mind if I quote you? you do put it so well...

My favorite is Plato's comment that there is no such thing as a vacuum...

He was describing zero point energy without realizing it

Zorgon the flood is universal. Every culture has some version of it in their historical legends.

the flood isn't universal
but the story of one is
hey heres an idea
has anyone checked to see where everyone was living when the largest flood in the history of mankind took place


Zorgon
as well as there not being enough room there is no evidence that every species of animal was reduced to a pair at some point in history
every aniimal found on earth today has a verifiable archaeological record that proves it evolved where it is found today
so nobody at any point collected two of every animal on earth
there is also no evidence of aliens anywhere in earths history
ditto no evidence of an earth covering flood
I can't but help you guys that think there is are either missing something really simple or that you are just basically simple yourselves
nerr

Genesis 7:2

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

---

Alrighty then. That's CLEAN beasts by SEVENS (2 of each kind, male and female)

Genesis 7:3

Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

---

CLEAN by sevens, 2 of each, male and female.

Might wanna try reading the bible for yourself instead of parroting the latest skeptic? Ain't an unclean beast in the mix of seven, and they were taken in groups of seven (some male, some female). The unclean were taken in groups of two.


It'd probably be something like:

clean 7 cows, 3 males, 4 females.
unclean 2 pigs, 1 male, 1 female

It's even worse than you thought. It's not just two of each kind.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by undo]

I think it's possible on both sides of it. There's too much for both sides of the main theories of this debate.

It's even worse than you thought. It's not just two of each kind

youre problem is that you dont think and you cherry pick whatever evidence you think supports your ridiculous hypothesis
thats not scientific Beth you might as well just make it all up
because the end result in your case is the same
the bible is fiction Beth
how many beasts clean or unclean were on the ark of Upanapishtim
how many on Ziusudras
the Noah story was based on these earlier mesopotamian tales are you going to try and deny that ?
did you never compare the wording in the Biblical flood story with that in the story of Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh: -
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

Genesis 7
8 And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth

Gilgamesh
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.

Genesis 7
7 And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth

are you going to claim that the story of Noah is an original now when the dates for gilgamesh are two thousand years older than the ones for the bible
are you that ignorant

the way you speak I expect you don't even know how the Hebrews defined what animals were clean or unclean in the first place
fyi
it was because certain animals were not accepted in akkadian temples as offerings to the gods because of their tendency to defecate all over the floor

lets see now
the Hebrew definition of a clean animal comes from the akkadians
the hebrew story of Noah comes from the akkadian story of Gilgamesh.
the Hebrew language has loan words from akkadian
the Hebrew god YHWH is Enlil of the akkadians (he sent the same flood and has the same image)
the idea of serpents being evil is akkadian (Babylonians and sumerians worshipped them)
the reference to shinar in the bible is derived from the akkadian word shumer
the Akkadians were semites Beth. do you think the Hebrews would base their cosmology on that of the non semitic sumerians or the babylonians who enslaved them
Ishmael who the Hebrews claim was the father of the arab nation was Akkadian.
his father Abraham lived in an akkadian city
think Girl think

the sumerians are not the source for Hebrew religion
and therefore your claim that aliens were in contact with the Sumerians and Alien technology is depicted in the bible is invalid even if it was true that the sumerians knew aliens (it isn't but even hypotheticallY)
Sitchin does what you do all the time. you're obviously a big fan
heres some of his latest crap
"The Epic of Creation and other relevant Sumerian texts are supported by other pictorial depictions, such as the cylinder seal VA-243 in the Berlin Near Eastern Museum"
It should actually read
"the Babylonian epic of creation is not relevant to other Sumerian texts and is not supported by other pictorial depictions, such as the Akkadian cylinder seal VA-243 in the Berlin Near Eastern Museum"

Sitchin gets away with this because he is ignorant of the actual details of Mesopotamian history as are you and all his other pitiful little fans who wouldn't know an Akkadian from a Sumerian or Babylonian deity if one walked up and punched them in the face

you take any thing you think will support your alien past and the blinkers that puts on you prevents you from seeing the simple truth
the end result is that anything you do will never be accepted by anyone who has actually studied what you think you know
and will never be accepted by anyone with any common sense
you will eventually end up disillusioned because people will never take you or anything you say seriously and as a result people who do know things will not bother to enlighten you. you'll become a laughing stock basically if you are not in fact one already

now stop wasting everybodies time and get with the program
History is not a story book for you to add extra details to because you have a theory
its already written and to put it together you just need to read it
why do you constantly prove yourself incapable of doing that


you want to spend some time working on something worthwhile then try this because its the key to understanding everything
why are the sun disks all over the world based on the same template
a disk with a crown with two legs supporting it
heres a hint
it has nothing to do with spaceships


[edit on 14-10-2006 by Marduk]

[edit on 14-10-2006 by Marduk]

[edit on 14-10-2006 by Marduk]

Okay, it's very complicated. I'm kind of busy tonight, so I'll read it again, later.

I'm wondering how all this talk about Akkadian, Sumerians, the Biblical Flood, etc...ad nauseum...Relates to the age of the Giza Pyramids.
How about getting back on topic, please?

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
I'm wondering how all this talk about Akkadian, Sumerians, the Biblical Flood, etc...ad nauseum...Relates to the age of the Giza Pyramids.
How about getting back on topic, please?

Okee day.

My opinion on this is still somewhat in limbo, after reading the details in this thread. I think it's older than 2600 BC, but I don't know by how much. Maybe the earliest and latest carbon dated item from the cement, is the clue. They started building it in 3800 and finished around 2800 BC. Then Khufu renovated it and claimed it when he and his gang migrated to the area? I could see him doing that, if the entire originating civilization was gone due to catastrophe, and he found the area devoid of inhabitants with a massive building of godlike proportions.

Originally posted by Cruizer

Zorgon the flood is universal. Every culture has some version of it in their historical legends. Something took place for sure. And yeah epics like the Ramayana, the Vedas, the Yantra Sarvasva,the Surya Siddhanta, the Samara Sutradhara and the Mahabharata allgo into great length describing, well, technological things in ancient India. As you said, aircraft are included. But the level of details is so fine that it boggle the mind that these obscure unrelated sources were written with such imagination. It is obvious that a very thorough knowledge of the heavens abounded then which really shouldn't have until at least the Galileo era of telescopes. The atom and sub-atomic world was also perceived before modern microscopic observation devices also.

Thanks to your reply to my previous post. I know what you mean by today's construction technology. It may be possible to build a copy of the great pyramid but how long and at what cost? Still when you get to the greater heights your problems increase greatly so maybe I'm being generous here.

But I want to address your response to Zorgon since you are a well read person. Have you come across the concept that earth at one time had an atmosphere that consisted of a water canopy? or some may have called it a vapour shield.

Those that suggest or believe or know of such a thing as this water canopy argue that the canopy fell as a catastrophic event in the past which led to the world wide flood. It may have destroyed Atlantis for example who some argue build the great pyramids in the first place.

The canopy fell when mars entered our solar system and caused a lot of disruption with the moon and earth due to gravitic effects.

I agree with you, that's the most likely scenrio and look at the other builidings older than Egypt around the world about 3600 BC. It makes since, that if your a military King, and you stuble on to a God-like building in the middle of no where and want the public to become co-dependent on you. Your going to renovate and claim it. Then act like it was yours.

But I'll check out the other theories later.

Originally posted by undo
I think it's older than 2600 BC, but I don't know by how much. Maybe the earliest and latest carbon dated item from the cement, is the clue.

That point was based upon the Radio-Carbon dating method...As already pointed out, Egyptians were more likely to use old wood that wouldn't have any other useable purpose before carbonizing it to put in the mortar...RC dating isn't accurate beyond giving you a likely frame of time & only at the point when that organic source-material died. Therefore, using only the age of the wood-carbon in the mortar as a potential clue can be very misleading: Various clues must be pieced together, much like a detective solving a murder case. Observation (of clues) & deduction (of how the clues fit together) are the detective's key tools.

Originally posted by undo
They started building it in 3800 and finished around 2800 BC. Then Khufu renovated it and claimed it when he and his gang migrated to the area? I could see him doing that, if the entire originating civilization was gone due to catastrophe, and he found the area devoid of inhabitants with a massive building of godlike proportions.

Again, not likely. The archeological record shows continual inhabitance of the Nile Valley & Delta region even earlier than the time I mentioned back on this page of the thread. Tomb U-J was dated at 3250 BC & that was uncovered at Abydos: Even before the desert nomads began migrating (during a period of a few hundred years, but occuring about 4,000 BC or so) into the River Valley/Delta areas, there were people already living there...Even Hierakonpolis was already established as Egypt's most prominent settlement by 3,500 BC.
It was the migrating desert nomads that eventually developed the society & accomplished the national unity that comes to identify Dynastic Egypt as it is known in modern times.

This is where a lot of people go wrong...Including Robert Shoch's theory about the older age of the Sphinx. Egyptology is like working a jigsaw puzzle when there's an unknown number of pieces still missing: It is not a single discipline. Egyptology encompasses geology, philology (the study of languages, word-meanings & origins: BTW, Egyptian Hieroglyphs are still not completely decyphered), archeology, theology...On & on. Egyptology is a combination of scientific disciplines as they pertain to puzzling out Egypt. Everything I put in my long post (linked above) represents all of those scientific disciplines combined into finding & decyphering numerous clues to figure out what Egypt was in ancient times.

Even the study of other ancient civilizations should be treated the same way...Single-clue theorizing leads the wrong direction, unless you can find enough other clues to rationally support the original theory. Such as the "vapor shield" theory mentioned recently...What other clues exist to support it? Where are the references to back up that theory?
After all, isn't this what research is all about?

[edit on 14-10-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]

Well, there just theories for now. So when people can actually learn and study from them, then we can debate why which theory is right.

Yes, still theories: Even a lot of Egyptology is still theory too. I was merely asking about the references to the "vapor shield" theory. I gave my references; Zorgon & Marduk gave their references; A lot of others gave their references. Where's the references to some of the "unsubstantiated" theories that have popped up in this thread a lot?

[edit on 14-10-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]

I'm wondering how all this talk about Akkadian, Sumerians, the Biblical Flood, etc...ad nauseum...Relates to the age of the Giza Pyramids.

The dating of everything in Egypt post dates anything in Sumer
by establishing a correct chronology in Mesopotamia it would be easy to then tie in both technological progress and architectural skill in Egypt
because in all cases the Mesopotamian culture was years ahead of the Egyptian one. (Sir Leonard Woolley estimated that they were about two thousand years ahead and he excavated extensively in egypt and Mesopotamia as well as many other areas in the middle east )
the fact that the Hebrews based their cosmology on the Mesopotamian model rather than the egyptian one is clear evidence of this
if you want to have the best you copy the best role model
and thats not the egyptian one
People claim it was harder for instance to build a pyramid because the blocks were bigger than the bricks in ziggurats
compare an estimated 2 million blocks in a pyramid with over 20 million bricks in a modest sized ziggurat
and then compare these



Duplo
for ages 2 and up
with these

Lego
ages 6 - 60


once the problem of moving the blocks is overcome as it obviously was in egypt the logistics of building a ziggurat are far harder