Jesus versus Masons

I am curious if you are a mason what is your personal thought on Jesus?

I have met many Masons that hold the belief that Jesus like moses and the Gods of egypt were nothing more than men that had false beliefs so to speak. IE the burning bush,walking on water etc anyone could do giving the proper belief/faith and enviroment. Thus creating no real messiah and well what God is who knows really.

I debate this in my mind often. I can see the point of yeah Hiram and Solomn were able to do what they did due to knowing the mysteries and I find it hard to believe in today's age Mason's stating that they don't know the mysteries nor practice them. Judging by any masonic monitor unless they have changed. This is nothing more than poetic practice of occult(craft).

Now a person's beliefs are a person's beliefs and I don't plan to spark up a debate on what is wrong or right hwoever I am curious if any Masons would like to share personal beliefs or thoughts on occult practice within masonry.

Many people claim a chain of command within masonry or other secret group and my only thought would be that the initate would be exposed to some form of scary experience(paranormal) and would scare them enough to not do anything speak of it or take any form of action. Judging by what is possible with telepathy and remote viewing I can see how the intimadation would be hard to beat for most however I imagine once you are exposed to such thing you may not have an idea how one or some do it but I would guess some would know how to conter such an event. Any thoughts?

Now one of my hardest problems is if you expose yourself to the truth ok anyone can do anything or manipulation via group ritual etc it still would equal to ultimate chaos if something goes a stray. Now I come to the question of well is Chaos true? If one was to open up the box bringing both worlds together would one person be able to get over taken by fears and make the whole planet explode for example? Or is there a balancing factor like God or other? Next up in thoughts of Chaos and reincarnation aka run and return system in kabbalah. Maybe there is no heaven or hell yet. Maybe some people who die are ready for the after life and others are not and than returned to live again to hope to makes things better. So considering the thought of Chaos if opened where does form come in? My only thought would be prophecy fulfilled.

I kind of went all over with my post just some random thoughts. Feel free to do the same

Well from what i heard and read Jesus himself was in fact a mason. Thats why we have the dead sea scrolls. The missing years of jesus life. I think if people knew how to use more or their brain i too can walk water, heal the sick. Feed the world. But hey thats just me lol

Well, seeing how Jesus Christ was a mythical character, I don't understand why a Mason or anyone would believe such nonsense.

Read the book:

The Christ Conspiracy The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S

And watch these three very important videos that shed truth on the whole subject on religion and christ:

Interview with Acharya S

The Naked Truth

Pharmacratic Inquisition

Share it with others. Especially The Naked Truth which I found extremely fascinating and quite moving actually.

Just a note, I think that this thread is fine within the bounds of this being a conspiracy site, often we hear that masons are against christianity, so the personal beleifs of people claiming to be masons should be acceptable in this thread (whereas normally we try to discourage simple discussion of being in the frat without reference to conspiracy).

I'm a Freemason. I dig Jesus. I try (and mostly fail) to live by his message. I wouldn't call myself a fundamentalist Christian, though, and I tend to distance myself from the main denominations in a theological sense.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Well, seeing how Jesus Christ was a mythical character, I don't understand why a Mason or anyone would believe such nonsense.

Well, there's more manuscriptural evidence of Christ's existence than Julius Caesar, so maybe we should all stop believing in Julius Caesar too...

I've read the Christ Conspiracy, and found it about as solid as Holy Blood Holy Grail (ie: lots of interesting parallels, but far from conclusive. It ignores a great many important facts).

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Well, seeing how Jesus Christ was a mythical character

Not true, Jesus Christ was indeed very real. The question is who was he not, did he exist.

-- Boat

Originally posted by nsawantsmedead
I am curious if you are a mason what is your personal thought on Jesus?

Mason, Lutheran.

Many people claim a chain of command within masonry or other secret group and my only thought would be that the initate would be exposed to some form of scary experience(paranormal) and would scare them enough to not do anything speak of it or take any form of action. Judging by what is possible with telepathy and remote viewing I can see how the intimadation would be hard to beat for most however I imagine once you are exposed to such thing you may not have an idea how one or some do it but I would guess some would know how to conter such an event. Any thoughts?

Many people believe a lot of things, and a lot of the time they're wrong. You in this case, are wrong. No occult, no paranormal, no 'chain of command' the likely sense that you are thinking of.

Originally posted by nsawantsmedead
I am curious if you are a mason what is your personal thought on Jesus?

I pretty much agree with Albert Pike:

Jesus of Nazareth, the "Son of man," is the expounder of the new Law of Love. He calls to Him the humble, the poor, the Pariahs of the world. The first sentence that He pronounces blesses the world, and announces the new gospel: "Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted." He pours the oil of consolation and peace upon every crushed and bleeding heart. Every sufferer is His proselyte. He shares their sorrows, and sympathizes with all their afflictions.

He raises up the sinner and the Samaritan woman, and teaches them to hope for forgiveness. He pardons the woman taken in adultery. He selects his disciples not among the Pharisees or the Philosophers, but among the low and humble, even of the fishermen of Galilee. He heals the sick and feeds the poor. He lives among the destitute and the friendless. "Suffer little children," He said, "to come unto me; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven! Blessed are the humble-minded, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven; the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth; the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy; the pure in heart, for they shall see God; the peace-maker, for they shall be called the children of God! First be reconciled to they brother, and then come and offer thy gift at the altar. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away! Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you; and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you! All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye also unto them; for this is the law and the Prophets! He that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me. A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another: as I have loved you, that ye also love one another: by this shall all know that ye are My disciples. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend."

The Gospel of Love He sealed with His life. The cruelty of the Jewish Priesthood, the ignorant ferocity of the mob, and the Roman indifference to barbarian blood, nailed Him to the cross, and He expired uttering blessings upon humanity.

Dying thus, He bequeathed His teachings to man as an inestimable inheritance. Perverted and corrupted, they have served as a basis for many creeds, and been even made the warrant for in-tolerance and persecution. We here teach them in their purity. They are our Masonry; for to them good men of all creeds can subscribe.

- Morals and Dogma, p. 309 - 310

Now a person's beliefs are a person's beliefs and I don't plan to spark up a debate on what is wrong or right hwoever I am curious if any Masons would like to share personal beliefs or thoughts on occult practice within masonry.

That would depend upon what you mean by "occult", as unfortunately, in more modern times, the word has lost its true meaning, and now it seems to mean "evil".

The Latin word "occult" only really means "hidden". In this sense, Masonic ritual is a thing "hidden" from outsiders, so it is "occult" in the classical sense, but not the nefarious. Also, traditional "occult doctrines" are spoken of throughout Masonry, but technically, these are no longer "hidden", as anyone can go to a library and check out a few good books on the Kabalah. However, at the time the Masonic degrees were composed, this was not the case, so it was originally occult.

Many people claim a chain of command within masonry or other secret group and my only thought would be that the initate would be exposed to some form of scary experience(paranormal) and would scare them enough to not do anything speak of it or take any form of action.

In Masonry and other semi-secret, Kabalistic societies of the past, the initiate swore an oath to keep secret those things revealed to him. This was due much more to the danger involved in discussing non-Catholic doctrines than any intrinsic importance in secrecy itself. As mentioned, these days, anyone interested can read all about the Kabalah in the library without having to join an occult secret society, although the latter also provides fellowship with like-minded others.

Judging by what is possible with telepathy and remote viewing I can see how the intimadation would be hard to beat for most however I imagine once you are exposed to such thing you may not have an idea how one or some do it but I would guess some would know how to conter such an event. Any thoughts?

Telepathy and remote viewing may exist in reality, and it may be only a figment of one's imaginiation. In any case, Freemasonry does not concern itself itself with such things. Again, I agree with Pike that Freemasonry is primarily a "Grand Kabalistic Association", and an istrument to educate men in the liberal principles of the Enlightenment.

over the years many things we take for granted have been classed as OCCULT practices and/or teachings.
All forms of science
all forms of healing
writing
any form of reproducing the image of another
reading
association with certain animals.
non conformity or questioning of the " expressed truths" of the church.
and on and on.......

Originally posted by Boatphone
Not true, Jesus Christ was indeed very real.

Really? How do you know?

And even if he was a real man, how do we (the world) can ever possibly know he was the one and ONLY true GOD creator of every living thing on earth? (seems like we would know about such a magnificent person, have massive evidence to prove his existence, and prove once and for all he is the only God for humanity) and...Why can't you accept the possibility we have been mislead with this creation of a Son of God figure? (and by the way, the same Son of God story has been retold many many times for thousands of years using different gods). Did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe we could lead happy and worry free life, not restricted by religious chains, not worrying what a god will think of you, what destiny you have in the afterlife (hell or heaven), not having every human hate one another over religious differences (which provokes wars and political conflicts)...allowing us all to simply live. LIVE. Without Fear. Without these ongoing debates and heated arguments that will never end because we truly will never know...never.

I guess it's in our nature to believe such grand stories to make us feel at peace within ourselves and to live a life without temptation or "sin".

But it rarely works out that way. Just look at the world now...


So is religion the answer?

The question is who was he not, did he exist.

-- Boat

Well there's your problem. Just the very idea of asking yourself who this Jesus was is enough evidence for me to conclude that if indeed a God walked on earth, all human life on earth by now would have known about his existance and who he truly was. It could have avoided all our pain and suffering on earth that it's caused because it's obvious we DON'T KNOW, and because of this we search..and search...but still, nothing.

Probably because there's nothing there to find.


You can continue to argue on how you feel Jesus's presense or feel that his words are talking to you when you most need it...but guess what, the mind is a powerful and wonderful tool, whatever you believe, whatever you put in it, you will believe. Images and symbols and words will create your gods and your beliefs. That is why we are blessed with imagination. We dream and we create.

It does not mean it is true, or that it is words all mankind should live by.


If I wanted to believe that this character:


[ Zeus ]


is our God, I have that freedom to do so.


It is our freedom to believe whatever we choose. And because we have this ability to freely choose, then who's to say who's god is right or wrong?


But we as a society don't respect this kind of freedom. And as a result, the planet has payed a terrible price.

Originally posted by eudaimonia


It is our freedom to believe whatever we choose. And because we have this ability to freely choose, then who's to say who's god is right or wrong?


But we as a society don't respect this kind of freedom. And as a result, the planet has payed a terrible price.

The ultimate irony: you're starting to sound like a Mason!

This is scary!

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by eudaimonia


It is our freedom to believe whatever we choose. And because we have this ability to freely choose, then who's to say who's god is right or wrong?


But we as a society don't respect this kind of freedom. And as a result, the planet has payed a terrible price.

The ultimate irony: you're starting to sound like a Mason!

This is scary!

I should also add (I will probably be bashed for this)...but because the planet has payed the price of religious conflicts resulting in death and destruction, and because humanity will never respect the freedom of another's beliefs, and because I see no end in the discussions of "Who is the real God of man?", I say...bring an end to the freedom of religion and any beliefs in gods.

I say...focus on simple basic human needs like love and support, and share this with one another.

Isn't that all we need to survive and have planet earth grow into a wonderful paradise?

Originally posted by eudaimonia


Isn't that all we need to survive and have planet earth grow into a wonderful paradise?

Perhaps. But how exactly would you "bring an end to the freedom of religion"? Do the ends justify the means, even if the means are holocaust?

From my own study of religion and history, I don't think there's anything wrong with religion itself. What's wrong is that the unscrupulous use religion as a tool to control the masses.

As long as religion is balanced with reason, there's never any real problem. It's only when reason is thrown out the window that fanaticism leads to bloodshed.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Perhaps. But how exactly would you "bring an end to the freedom of religion"? Do the ends justify the means, even if the means are holocaust?

It will never happen because we're so knee deep with our blinded faith that it will take a god him/herself to come down and bring an end to our madness.

From my own study of religion and history, I don't think there's anything wrong with religion itself. What's wrong is that the unscrupulous use religion as a tool to control the masses.

Again, I hate to say this, but I think it's too late. Too late to use religion for good. The corruption is so deep, only death can save it.

As long as religion is balanced with reason, there's never any real problem. It's only when reason is thrown out the window that fanaticism leads to bloodshed.

I blame mostly our government and media for this. But our government is drowning in the blood of millions. As long as a government exists with eyes of opposition, we can't be saved.

Why waste time with the masons, when they are a smokescreen front for a much bigger cabal?

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Again, I hate to say this, but I think it's too late. Too late to use religion for good. The corruption is so deep, only death can save it.

I must disagree. The Salvation Army, World Vision, and Anglicare do an excellent job of sharing Christ's message of love and compassion.

There are a dozen local organisations I could name too, but I doubt you would have heard of them (as I'm from Australia).

Jesus isn't my god. It doesn't have a name. It just is. It's the higher power.

I'm happy with Freemasonry because it doesn't force a name or face on me. There's nowhere in bluelodge I've ever heard the word Jesus come up. For all the conspiracy nutballs that say you have to kiss a bible.. i've seen that switched to the torah, koran, and other holy books of worldly religions. Masonry was so beautifully crafted to allow everyone to have their own choice in deity and not have it interfere with the teachings of Masonry. Religion plays a part, but nowhere does Masonry force anything on you.

There's absolutely no devil or satan related stuff anywhere at all either. Do you really think all these guys involved would be worshipping the devil!? There's no occult. If you have any doubts they can all be squashed by going to any lodge prior to the nights meeting. Im sure youll find some nice guys, interesting conversation, and a free meal too.

Seriously, all the negative stuff out there on Masonry is made up. It's just a mens group that does charitable work. Of course it has rituals, rules, orders, and secrets - but those are teaching tools, guides, and ways for other Masons to know how involved you are. Plus, theyre fun. You are only promoted through the ranks of Masonry based on what you learn.

Masonry attracts good men. And makes them better.

Originally posted by ARIST0CRAT

Jesus isn't my god. It doesn't have a name. It just is. It's the higher power.

The higher power? Can you describe what this higher power is?

I consider Love a higher power. The highest, actually.

I'm happy with Freemasonry because it doesn't force a name or face on me. There's nowhere in bluelodge I've ever heard the word Jesus come up. For all the conspiracy nutballs that say you have to kiss a bible.. i've seen that switched to the torah, koran, and other holy books of worldly religions. Masonry was so beautifully crafted to allow everyone to have their own choice in deity and not have it interfere with the teachings of Masonry. Religion plays a part, but nowhere does Masonry force anything on you.

What have you decided to believe?

What I find odd is that Freemasonry provides you with the freedom of choosing whatever you want, you get to hang out in a nice looking temple/lodge, to practice these beliefs and Freemasonry I guess steps in and "improves" on all this?

So if an atheist decides to join Freemasonry, what is being taught to them? How does Freemasonry make an atheist a better man?

What is being done in Freemasonry that makes men better??

There's absolutely no devil or satan related stuff anywhere at all either. Do you really think all these guys involved would be worshipping the devil!? There's no occult. If you have any doubts they can all be squashed by going to any lodge prior to the nights meeting. Im sure youll find some nice guys, interesting conversation, and a free meal too.

So, can a satanist join?

Seriously, all the negative stuff out there on Masonry is made up. It's just a mens group that does charitable work. Of course it has rituals, rules, orders, and secrets - but those are teaching tools, guides, and ways for other Masons to know how involved you are. Plus, theyre fun. You are only promoted through the ranks of Masonry based on what you learn.

Masonry attracts good men. And makes them better.

This is their selling point. Take men and make them better. HOW?

Do men really apply because they feel their so lost in life? Depressed maybe? Looking for the meaning of life? Finding who God really is? Free meals?!

What is the appeal at its core? There must be something deeper that we non-masons are not understanding.

Is Freemasonry really a necessary final solution to get the answers to your burning questions?

Originally posted by eudaimonia
What I find odd is that Freemasonry provides you with the freedom of choosing whatever you want, you get to hang out in a nice looking temple/lodge, to practice these beliefs and Freemasonry I guess steps in and "improves" on all this?

Not exactly. Masonry provides an opportunity for personal and spiritual growth and exploration.
It encourages you to be the best you can be in the faith of your acceptance and unites men of similar mind.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
So if an atheist decides to join Freemasonry, what is being taught to them? How does Freemasonry make an atheist a better man?

It doesn't, an atheist may not join regular masonry.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
What is being done in Freemasonry that makes men better??

It provides a constant reminder of the things in life which make a good man,
reinforcing those values which he learned through his faith.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
So, can a satanist join?

I do not believe there is anything that specifically states a satanist may not
but I'm sure that if the satanist where honest about his beliefs, he would not
be accepted. Also my understanding of satanism(Anton Lavey) is that thier beliefs are
similar to that of an atheist with a bunch of mumbo jumbo tossed in, which would disqualify them from joining.

I agree with Angelwitch.

An Satanist in the style of Anton LaVey is directly at odds with Freemasonry's views on The Supreme Being, given that he worships/reveres the "Great Enemy".

A typical modern-day Satanist (ie: one who prizes individuality and selfishness above all) is essentially an atheist. Satan is merely a symbol for rebellion and a self-serving existence. Again, this would preclude him from joining Freemasonry.