France's no-work ethic

Why is it that so many French people would rather riot than work?
For nearly a fortnight, French students repeatedly have taken to the streets in protest of a modest labor reform proposed by Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin. It seems that Mr. de Villepin had the audacity to suggest that companies hiring workers under the age of 26 have the ability to fire those workers in the first two years of employment. Mr. de Villepin's far-from-Draconian reform is a reaction to the country's government-planned entitlement state, overregulated labor laws and sky-high jobless rate.
...
Indeed, at the heart of the French problem is a statist-run socialist economy that is massively overtaxed and overregulated. France's public government sector, for instance, accounts for more than 50 percent of GDP. In other words, private business in France is in the minority.
Added to this, France's top personal tax rate is 48 percent, with a VAT tax of nearly 20 percent. So that means French laborers face a combined 68 percent tax rate on consumption and investment. No wonder France has created less than 3 million jobs over the past 20 years, compared to 31 million in the United States. Economic growth in "cowboy capitalist" America has exceeded that of France's worker paradise by nearly 50 percent.

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Dismiss this all you want, but France and the rest of Europe is in tall weeds. Socialism is poison

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[edit on 28-3-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Socialism is not poison...poorly regulated socialism is poison.

However, capitalism, poorly regulated or other wise, seems to be poison as well. Should we eat the poor?

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Socialism is not poison...poorly regulated socialism is poison.

However, capitalism, poorly regulated or other wise, seems to be poison as well. Should we eat the poor?

Huh? Socialism has failed every place it’s tried. It’s the most murderous ideology ever visited upon this planet.

Will you be sending me a postcard from Havana anytime soon? Now there’s a workers paradise for you.

Capitalism at its core, it just a voluntary exchange between buyer and seller. Any interference in that exchange (apart from those involving public goods) is a restraint on liberty.

Originally posted by ElTiante
Capitalism at its core, it just a voluntary exchange between buyer and seller.

Maybe "at its core," but not in reality. Just ask the bottom 50% here is America. I think you are referring to capitalism without the hand of gov't playing middle-man?

And Cuba would be doing considerably better if Uncle Sam would play nice. '62 was a long time ago. The embargo needs to go. We are only smothering the people at this point.

Originally posted by ElTiante
Socialism has failed every place it’s tried.

You are absolutely correct. Every one of Marx's ideals
and prophecies has been proven wrong. Every one.
Even sociology classes in leftist colleges are having to
admit that.

I just smoked some Cohibas.

I bought them legally too! I have the privledge (or luck perchance?) of living in a country which, for now, permits me to travel where I will. Perhaps if the U.S. government would lift a forty(!) year old embargo and both sides layed off the propaganda the two nations could benefit from each others diversity. But lets face it, the situation is as it is because someone is benefiting from it. The Canadian, American and Cuban governments are mere pawns for a greater power.

Capitalism as a voluntary exchange between buyer and seller is fine provided there is no system of usury in place; This would ensure that money is simply used as a a medium for the exchange of value. Money should not be used, it cannot be used, to create money. But via interst, loans and fiat credit, we have turned this seemingly simple system of augmented barter into a collective fuedal nightmare. We were set up to fail. Through spiralling debt, true wealth (i.e. land and natural resources, the mass media) and thus control is being funneled into the posession of the few, those with the power to create money and "credit". They are the elite, the ones who are truly at liberty save from their greed. They have alliegences to no nation; In fact they create and destroy nations as it suits their needs. They may do as they see fit, playing with the world while the rest of us goof off, a bunch of lowly pleebs, indentured permanently through our own ignorance.

As Orwell described the class struggle, the rich are on top and do whatever they can to stay there. The poor are on the bottom and couldn't care less about those above them, for they struggle with survival itself on a day to day basis. Those in the middle and thus more able to persue their desires want to get to the top and revolution, violent or otherwise, they will eventually overturn those in power. Socialist, Feudalist, Capitalist, it's all the same. Rinse and repeat.

The ideal of one class of people is universal. It isn't socialist or democratic, left or right, or anything you care to name it. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the right to bear arms, universal healthcare, all can be considered socialist ideals as well as democratic. They are all reflective of a society where all people are equals. Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. Nor is communism and democracy. Capitalism can be made to work with abolishment of usury and a few other adjustments (i.e. intellectual property laws, banking laws), allowing for a sustainable and equitable free market to exist within a classless (or socialist/communist/democratic if you must label ideas in a partisan manner) context. No one gets a free ride, no one starves or freezes to death on the streets.

We cannot just throw off an existing power hierarchy in the name the democracy or socialism, or any other -ism for that matter, because no matter the ideology, they are all subservient to the greater power of international finance. Only when we abolish this system of control and remove those in power can we attempt to reclaim our freedom and live in a world where we are truly equal, the market is truly free and no pigs walk upright. And it wouldn't be called communism or capitalism; It would be called progress.

And once again I find myself out of WATS in my time of need.

I like that. It won't be called capitalism or communism, but rather progress.


Will a Thumbs Up suffice???

Originally posted by ElTiante
Huh? Socialism has failed every place it’s tried. It’s the most murderous ideology ever visited upon this planet.

Correct. Socialism fails because it is based on the pretext that all men are equal, and are thus entitled to an equal portion of society's output. It fails to take into account the differences in the individual, and the benefits of competition. If everyone is guaranteed an equal share of the pie, then there is no incentive to succeed. The problem becomes severe real quick when the bills start rolling in.

Capitalism as a voluntary exchange between buyer and seller is fine provided there is no system of usury in place; This would ensure that money is simply used as a a medium for the exchange of value. Money should not be used, it cannot be used, to create money. But via interst, loans and fiat credit, we have turned this seemingly simple system of augmented barter into a collective fuedal nightmare

We have laws in place to prevent usury. Interest on a loan is the basis for re-investment and growth.

Originally posted by WithinyouWithoutyou

Capitalism as a voluntary exchange between buyer and seller is fine provided there is no system of usury in place; This would ensure that money is simply used as a a medium for the exchange of value. Money should not be used, it cannot be used, to create money. But via interst, loans and fiat credit, we have turned this seemingly simple system of augmented barter into a collective fuedal nightmare. We were set up to fail. Through spiralling debt, true wealth (i.e. land and natural resources, the mass media) and thus control is being funneled into the posession of the few, those with the power to create money and "credit". They are the elite, the ones who are truly at liberty save from their greed. They have alliegences to no nation; In fact they create and destroy nations as it suits their needs. They may do as they see fit, playing with the world while the rest of us goof off, a bunch of lowly pleebs, indentured permanently through our own ignorance.

Hey you know that a great idea. Listen, rents be kinda tough lately, so you won’t mind me crashing at your place for a while right? Hey, I won’t be payin’ any rent either ‘cause everything should be free you know? Hey that car of yours is nice, I’ll need that for while too.

What? You expect to be compensated when someone uses something of yours? Well it’s the same thing with money. Somebody earned that money and if you want to use it you’ll have to pay. If people don’t receive payment for the use of their money then they won’t be loaning it out.

I'm not going to wade into this debate except to say that there are some successful socialist governments and they're all Scandanavian.

Now, isn't that interesting? What are they doing right? That's what we should be looking at.

Which Scandinavian countries are socialist? Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are all Constitutional Monarchies.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Which Scandinavian countries are socialist? Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are all Constitutional Monarchies.

Realistically, they're socialist.

Money is an abstract representation of value. You can't posess value or give it away. You can only posess something of value, be it the labour of your body or your automoblie. Nobody earns interest...it's usury, money (value) for nothing. Those who have have the means to get more. Those who do not simply owe more of what they do not have to those who already have it. It is serfdom, so wake up and stop blindly defending whatever ideology it is that you ascribe to.

Nothing is free, no one is guaranteed a peice of the pie, but one should get what they work for; Inventing "credit" is not work. Fiat credit is practiced by all banks; It is the scam of lending more than you actually posess and expecting a return ,plus interest, in hard currency or assets. If you don't pay, you lose everything. It's extortion, not capitalism or the free market; A legitamized mafia.

Interest on a loan is the basis for oppression. The only growth involved is that of the banks wealth and power. By taking out a mortgage, I agree to pay 3 times the value of my home to the bank. When I sell it I do not get 3 times the market value, but the bank gets it from the new owners. This is not growth, it is not re-investment, it is theivery. Where does this extra two thirds go? Into the banks coffer. Where does it come from? It comes from real value, the labour and assets of people. Their homes, their land, their labour and their possessions. The banks and their controllers are vacuum cleaners, sucking the wealth and freedom out of entire nations. Have a look at how "growth and reinvestment" helped Africa and Brazil.

Everyone who works, whether a janitor or a doctor, a socialist or a capitalist, deserves to own a home. Am I incorrect in saying this? A simple change such as interest free mortgages would radically alter the economic landscape with virtually all workers owning a home and personal debt falling through the floor. But removing a major source of income for the bank would prove difficult at best and fatal at worst as evidenced by the interest free currency attempts of Lincoln and Kennedy.

We can't lay blame on nations and their people. We shouldn't be attacking personal ideologies. We must get to the root of the problem, the common ground that capitalist and socialist countries share. We are all getting shafted by international banking in all it's forms. To say that socialism/capitalism is evil, that competion can't exist in a socialist economy or that equality can't exist in a capitalist context is ludacris. It is playing the bankers game. All men are created equal in every way that matters, and we can have a free market economy without bank interest, international loans and outright theft. So lets recognize that we are all human beings and we are all being opressed by the same forces. We can work together to rectify this injustice and benefit all of humanity. Or is that too group (i.e socially) oriented for some of you?

[edit on 31-3-2006 by WithinyouWithoutyou]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Which Scandanavian countries are socialist? Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all Constitutional Monarchies

Socialism is an economic system not a system of government. Your nation can be a constitutional monarchy or a republic and still be considered a socialist country.

The French have really worked themselves into a corner here. They've raised their children to believe you can walk into a job at 22yrs old work a 35hr week and enjoy months long paid vacation then walk out 30yrs later with full pension and benefits. Their parents had these priviledges why shouldn't they. Well because in spite of all the free time the French people have on their hands they obviously spent little of it having sex. Their population scew has made it impossible for the French welfare state to continue in its current incarnation.

France has to wake up if it is going to survive in this globalized world they're going to have to make some changes. If France thinks they've got it difficult know just wait until China and India come on line. I have to hand it to Dominique de Villepin he's at least trying to acknowledge this crisis and take appropriate measures unlike Chirac who has put his head in the sand and done nothing to move the French people towards reform.

If France and europe as a whole is to survive they must adapt. Europe has done this in the past. To survive to be a great society you must adapt. But the moment you stop adapting either because you can't or you won't your society is pretty much doomed. Why because their is always someone looking to take your place.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Socialism is not poison...poorly regulated socialism is poison.

However, capitalism, poorly regulated or other wise, seems to be poison as well. Should we eat the poor?

Agreed. Any system that does not have some form of regulation - be it socialism or capitalism - automatically becomes a perversion where either society is paralyzed by unions, or a very rich oligarchy gets richer while the poor get poorer and capitalist intellectuals blame the poor for being "lazy".

Humans cannot be trusted to respect their fellow beings enough not to exploit them. Some restraints have to apply.

Exactly...we could have peaceful anarchy if we werent a bunch of greedy animals. We need a system of control...just not this one.

History has yet repeated itself again...and again

Never fear!
France does what France does best: capitulate.







seekerof

Seekerof - France didn't capitulate... Chirac did. Let's resist the tendency (very widespread on ATS) to paint an entire country the same color.

From what I heard in the past few days, De Villepin's way of reforming first-employment contracts was poorly designed...

The CPE is a new work contract for under-26s with a two-year trial period. In that period, employers can terminate the contract without having to offer an explanation. *snip*

The government argued the measure would boost opportunities for young workers, many of whom can only find short-term contract work at best.

Some employers say they are reluctant to take on new staff because of the difficulties of firing them if they prove unsuitable or are no longer needed.

However, critics warned the new legislation could make it even harder for young people to find a permanent job, and it could be misused by larger employers.

I know that there were fears that employers would summarily dismiss employees a few weeks before their 26th birthday, or that some young workers wouldn't bother looking for a real job before they hit 26... so maybe the French government needs to go back to the drawing board and craft a bill that curtails the difficulties in firing an unsuitable employee, without penalizing workers who just happen to turn 26...

Edited to fix quote box.


[edit on 10-4-2006 by Otts]

The problem with euros and especially the french is they're too hidebound and risk averse. In America, most everyone can be fired at moment's notice. This creates an incentive for employees to work hard not only so they can keep the job they have but so they can get a better one. Firings don't look so good on a resume (CV).

Europe is trying to preserve this socialist status quo when the only thing you can count on is change. Creatures that don't adapt to change die.

[edit on 11-4-2006 by ElTiante]

Originally posted by ElTiante
France and the rest of Europe is in economic trouble.

Great Britain is not in economic trouble. The British economy is growing at the pace of 1.7%, unemployment in Great Britain is 5%, and the British national debt is low.

Originally posted by ElTiante
Socialism is poison

True.