Misquoting Jesus

Produkt - i fail to see where you are going - it is as if you want to find something wrong with the New Testament.

1. the passage from the New Testament is explaining that the same text in the Old Testament is refering to Christ - that is why the New Testament says Christ and the old does not. There are dozens of passages in the New Testament that demonstrate how the Old Testament passages actually refer to Christ, Jesus.

2. the Jewish community that had the Dead Sea Scrolls - were called the Essenes and they lived in the Qumran area.

The Essenes were an offshoot of Judiasm - a cult of sorts. They lived in isolation - sort of like monks and they ceased to exist in 70ad. So there is no reason to believe that this Judaic cult would have mentioned Jesus. In fact - it is very possible that these texts were hidden in these caves before Jesus was even born!

Originally posted by Produkt
Just got done watching a quick interview with the author of the book titled Misquoting Jesus....

My query is rather more simple. If this chap Ehrman is telling us that the NT is a load of rubbish which we don't even have, why is he drawing a salary from the taxpayer to study it? And is the taxpayer happy to pay him?

I must say that abusing a chair in textual criticism in order to debunk a theological position seems fairly lacking in integrity to me. I want to see textual criticism done. But that discipline has no valid connection to the theological propositions being made.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

John 8:7 "John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

John 8:7 Ως δε επεμενον ερωτωντες αυτον ανακυψας ειπεν προς αυτους, Ο αναμαρτητος υμων, πρωτον επ αυτην τον λιθον βαλετω.


I have in front of me the oldest known manuscripts in digital format and it contains that verse.

It comes from the Greek Papyrus Manuscripts dated between 1st and 3rd century. I'm not aware of any older than that. So the person should quote what older source they are referencing to come to that conlusion.

What version and where can I find it? Link.

www.logos.com...

store.bibleworks.com...

the passage from the New Testament is explaining that the same text in the Old Testament is refering to Christ - that is why the New Testament says Christ and the old does not. There are dozens of passages in the New Testament that demonstrate how the Old Testament passages actually refer to Christ, Jesus.

How can a text refer to christ before christ was even around? That translation was added after Jesus had died.

The Essenes were an offshoot of Judiasm - a cult of sorts. They lived in isolation - sort of like monks and they ceased to exist in 70ad. So there is no reason to believe that this Judaic cult would have mentioned Jesus. In fact - it is very possible that these texts were hidden in these caves before Jesus was even born!

How can something dated to the time of Jesus' life be hidden in a cave before the time it's been dated too? Christianity is an offshoot cult of Judaism or possibly the Essenes. Why no mention of Jesus at all period by any culture durring the life of Jesus? None of the people he visited mention him. Nothing is mentioned untill years after his 'death'. Also, from what I've learned, the Roman's

en.wikipedia.org...

The Essenes are discussed in detail by Josephus and Philo. Many scholars believe that the community at Qumran that allegedly produced the Dead Sea Scrolls was an offshoot of the Essenes; however, this theory has been disputed by Norman Golb and other scholars. Some suggest that Jesus of Nazareth was an Essene, and that Christianity evolved from this sect of Judaism, with which it shared many ideas and symbols.

www.essene.org...

"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus"-- Thomas Jefferson

essenes.net...

www.essenespirit.com...

[edit on 16-3-2006 by Produkt]

Originally posted by NumberMan
www.logos.com...

store.bibleworks.com...

You said digital .. I'm assuming it's readable somewhere online? The actual biblical text, not some book to buy that claim's to have the 'original'.

www.rmbowman.com...

There is another version of that story. It starts the same way. The scribes and Pharisees bring the woman before Jesus, quote the law to him, and ask him what he has to say about it. He writes with his finger in the sand, and then says, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." At that moment a stone comes flying out of the crowd, hits the woman right in the forehead, and kills her instantly. Jesus turns and says, "Mother, I was trying to make a point."

That version of the story is, of course, apocryphal. But the point is not. Jesus was trying to make a point, not just to the scribes and Pharisees there, but to us who read about this incident two thousand years later.

en.wikipedia.org...

In Judeo-Christian theology, the word apocrypha refers to texts that are not considered canonical, part of the Bible, but are of roughly similar style and age as the accepted canonical Scriptures. Catholic and Orthodox Christian Bibles typically contain several texts not included in the Biblical canon by other Christians or by Judaism, who see them as apocryphal. Catholics and Orthodox consider these texts equally canonical as other books of the Bible, with Catholics terming them deuterocanonical (from Greek: "second canon," or "measuring rule").

[edit on 16-3-2006 by Produkt]

If you read the description you will see the origins of the texts and where they currently reside. They are scattered into various places.

Perhaps if it interests you that enough you can google the topic more and find out where the actual texts reside and where you can find digital pics of them. They are the oldest ones and the entire Book of John that has the quote of casting the first stone was found. I'm just saying if this person says the oldest texts don't contain this or that then perhaps these will shed more light on that subject matter.

You can always buy the product produkt.

Neither site says what the manuscript itself is called. I did abit of searching and found this however.

www.bl.uk...

Despite its rather austere appearance, the Codex Sinaiticus is a treasure beyond price. Produced in the middle of the fourth century, the Codex is one of the two earliest Christian Bibles. (The other is the Codex Vaticanus in Rome.) Within its beautifully handwritten Greek text are the earliest surviving copy of the complete New Testament and the earliest and best copies of some of the Jewish scriptures, in the form that they were adopted by the Christian Church. As one of the earliest luxury codices to survive in large part, the Codex forms one of the most important landmarks in the history of the book.

I'm not sure if this is the manuscript the book is talking about as it does not say at all on either site. This would just be the oldest most complete full version of the canonical bible.

No that would be the Latin ones mid 4th century.

The names your looking for are:

The Beatty Papyri
The Bodmer Papyri

Dated from 100-325 AD

Originally posted by onesharpbroadhead
Produkt.

Jerome finished his translation - i suggest you check out other sources than your methodist church site - a church that a great many Christian denominations do not even consider Christian!

The Dead Sea Scrolls are not older than the Septuagint which is from the 3rd century before christ. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been carbon dated from between the 2nd century before Christ to the first century AD. And guess what - THE REASON THAT THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS DO NOT MENTION CHRIST IS BECAUSE THEY WERE WRITTEN BEFORE CHRIST!

BTW - the Septuagint - matches the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I was watching the National Geographics Channel, and they had an interesting show. I believe it was called "The Three Kings". They tried to determine who the three kings were, and when they visited Jesus. They determined the correct birth day and year of Jesus by using Astronomy models, and what was written in the scriptures about his birth. Basically they concluded that Jesus was born in 6 B.C., on or around April 20th.
Here is a website that basically describes how conclusions like these were formed, excluding the astronomical model which had to do with the planet Jupiter, and the constelation of the Ram (these two astronomical events were supposed to signal the birth of kings): www.new-life.net...
Therefore, if they were correct in their calculations, Jesus was already alive, but still quite young.

I'm not sure why the song during the holidays uses "we 3 kings" ... lol

They were Magi / Astrologers

Wise Men - (Strongs # 3097) – Magos Μαγος - the name given by the Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes, Persians, and others, to the wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc.

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

That is why they had an interest with the night sky.

Again Produkt - you are digging real deep here.

you asked:
"How can a text refer to Christ before Christ was even around? That translation was added after Jesus had died.

Answer - the Old Testament PREDICTED CHRIST'S COMING! The New Testament - was demonstrating that the passage from the Old Testament in question - was indeed refering to Christ. This is not that difficult to understand.

Then you ask:

How can something be dated to the time of Jesus' life be hidden in a cave before the time it has been dated too?

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been carbon dated to be somewhere between the 2nd century BC - BEFORE CHRIST to the first century! So it is quite possible that these works were hidden before Christ was even born!

Then you make a bizarre and false statement that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or possibly the Essenes. Jesus CONDEMNED JUDAISM as a false religion - you see Judaism is not the true Old Testament religion - rather it is the religion of the Pharasees and Scribes - whom Jesus condemned on numerous occassions. Regarding the Essenes they were an even more bizarre breakoff of Judaism and was probably unknown to many at the time of Christ - since they lived like hermits out in the wilderness.

Regarding Jesus being mentioned during his life - the entire New Testament was written during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. During His life He never commanded anyone to write a thing. He spent most of His time with illiterate people - Jesus, being God - had no use for the "educated" hypocrites. The true significance of Jesus and Who He actually was was not realized until AFTER THE RESSURECTION by the majority of the people. He only lived to be 33 - His public mission was only for 3 years - that does not give one much time to write anything. And again - to even most of His Apostles - they did not realize Who He really was until AFTER HER ROSE FROM THE DEAD!

We know that the Ressurection was recorded by even His enemies - the Jews - who never denied that He lived and existed - they just claim He was a liar.

Regarding your "scholars" - there are "scholars" who say anything - it is meaningless. There is no evidence at all that Jesus was an Essene - that is absurd - Jesus condemned that type of religious observance.

Regarding Thomas Jefferson - who cares what he thought or thinks - He was a deist and a Freemason - so his credibility is ZERO on this matter.

Howdy Produkt,

I just finished Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus; I think a lot of those posting in this thread would be less scandalized if they actually read the book.

I was especially interested in his addressing the issue of apparent inconsistency in Pauls attitude towards women as voiced in different places in 1 Corinthians.

I enjoyed the work, though I thought the author's bias was evident at times.

Ehrman plainly states that of the "30,000+ discrepencies (he claims)" between manuscripts, almost all have absolutely no impact on the message of scripture, being quite simply differences in spelling of a word, accidently leaving a word or a line out, etc., resulting from a scribe's being tired, inattentive, hungry, whatever...

I think he makes a strong case for the insertion of Paul's famous "I will have no woman to rule over me..." verses in 1 Corinthians, given his attitude towards women in the rest of that same epistle.

And, as he noted at the end, if purposeful "miscopying" of texts were not a possibility, then why would John close Revelation with a warning not to add to or subtract from it's message (Rev. 22:18-19)?

I believe the crux of the problem lies in the fact that we don't have any of the originals.

Answer - the Old Testament PREDICTED CHRIST'S COMING! The New Testament - was demonstrating that the passage from the Old Testament in question - was indeed referring to Christ. This is not that difficult to understand.

Really? Where did it predict Jesus' coming?

judaism.about.com...

JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
   
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
   
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
   
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
   

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

Did Jesus bring an era of world peace? No. In fact, he state's that ...

I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Mathew 10:45)

If he himself is saying he is not bringing peace, then how is he fulfilling the entire messianic prophecies? There are even more discrepancies through out the bible and life of jesus that show he was not the Jewish Messiah the Jewish people were looking for.

Was there supposed to be a second coming for the Jewish Messiah? No. The lord was to save the Jewish Messiah. Jesus died.

You come forth to save your people, to save your anointed one. You crush the heads of the wicked, you lay bare their bases at the neck… (Habakkuk 3:13)

www.geocities.com...

In the old testament, there's a verse as quoted here ...

i will bring forth people who will perform miracles but if he tries to change one word of the Torah then he is a false profit and you should not fall for this.

Interesting, no? The christian biblical text's read differently then the Torah. The christian bible twists the Jewish prophecies to make it appear that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, when in fact he was not. Perhaps this is why the Jews killed this false Messiah.

Then you make a bizarre and false statement that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or possibly the Essenes. Jesus CONDEMNED JUDAISM as a false religion

Where in the bible does Jesus condemn his own religion? Mary was a Jew and was subject to Jewish law's. Had she not twisted the prophecies to make it appear that her bastard son was born of god, she would have been stoned to death per Jewish laws. Jesus was a Rabbi, how many Christians rabbi's are there? I know of none. Jesus never says to become a christian, but to love god and love thy neighbors etc. He never condemns any religion. But he does say that he is the only way, which would be false when you read the messianic prophecies in full, which he does not fulfill in full.

The true significance of Jesus and Who He actually was was not realized until AFTER THE RESSURECTION by the majority of the people. He only lived to be 33 - His public mission was only for 3 years - that does not give one much time to write anything. And again - to even most of His Apostles - they did not realize Who He really was until AFTER HER ROSE FROM THE DEAD!

How can this be so if the Jewish Messianic prophecies were used to explain away Mary's bastard son. It was known before his birth that he should have been the Messiah prophesied in the Jewish prophecies. There should have been no doubt before his supposed second coming which was never prophesied in the Jewish Prophecies.

Did you read todays news? It happened yesterday. People had time to retell a story of an event that happened the day prior to the story being written. How is it that no one had time to write anything of Jesus' teaching's and life durring the entire 30ish year's of his life?

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been carbon dated to be somewhere between the 2nd century BC - BEFORE CHRIST to the first century! So it is quite possible that these works were hidden before Christ was even born!

The dead sea scrolls were dated to have been written as early as 200BCE and as late as 68CE. Jesus died between 29-36CE, well before the youngest of the dated dead sea scrolls, leaving no possibility for a scroll written around say, 40-68CE to be hidden before Jesus' birth between 3-6BCE. He was definitely alive during the time of some of the dead sea scrolls being written. Even still, the supposed ressurection is still very much in debate!

www.bbc.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...
hamsa.org...

islam.itl.org.uk...

The Qur’an, however refers to the crucifixion only once and can be interpreted as denying both the crucifixion of Jesus and his death on the cross by the hands of the Jews. Muhammad is said to have received this revelation in response to a boast of the Jews that they had killed Jesus Christ. It states:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise (Surah 4:157-158).

[edit on 17-3-2006 by Produkt]

"I will bring forth people who will perform miracles but if he tries to change one word of the Torah then he is a false profit and you should not fall for this."

Interesting, no? The christian biblical text's read differently then the Torah. The christian bible twists the Jewish prophecies to make it appear that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, when in fact he was not. Perhaps this is why the Jews killed this false Messiah.


What is that verse number by chance above? The source also misspelled "prophet"

www.aish.com...$.asp
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

KJV Bible.

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

The Christian version of the commandment's read's differently from the Jewish commandment's as I noted earlier above.

www.faqs.org...

Furthermore, Christianity contradicts Jewish theology. In
Christianity, the notion of "Trinity" breaks G-d into three separate
beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
However, the basis of Jewish belief is captured in the Shema: "Hear O
Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare
the One-ness of G-d every day, writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and
binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of G-d's
One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the
last words uttered before he dies. In Jewish law, worship of a
three-part G-d is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal
sins which a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This
explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave
up their lives rather than convert.

[edit on 17-3-2006 by Produkt]

Well, well, the truth comes out - Produkt is not interested in learning the truth - he is interested in promoting an idea - a falsehood.

I have no doubt at all now that Pordukt is a jew (actual or at heart) - his referal to Jesus as the "bastard son of Mary" is right out of the satanic talmud.

His judiac misquoting of prophecy that refers to the Spiritual Kindgom of Jesus Christ, Who made it clear to Pilate that His Kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD, his bizarre unwillingless to accept the obvious truth - all betray his judiac spirituality.

But most telling is his bizarre insistence that Jesus was a follower of Judaism.

Lets see what the New Testament has to say about Judaism. In fact - it is clear from the New Testament that the Pharasees and Scribes were not even the blood decendants of the Hebrews - of which Jesus and Mary were.

John 8:31-34

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free. They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham: and we have never been slaves to any man. How sayest thou: You shall be free? Jesus answered them: Amen, amen, I say unto you that whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

Note well - that these Jews, who did not believe in him (the ones whom He was originally speaking too - beame his disciples) said that they, as the seed of abraham - have NEVER BEEN THE SLAVES TO ANY MAN - well we all know that the TRUE HEBREWS WERE INDEED SLAVES TO THE EGYPITIANS FOR MANY MANY YEARS!

Abraham had two lines - Isaac and Ismael - the jews would love to have you believe that the arabs are the sons of Ismael - but as the New Testament reveals it is those who say that they are jews - who are the descendant sof Ismael and Esau. You see - Isaac's line split also - between Esau and Jacob - twins - whom God said would form two peoples - one blessed and one not. Esau sold his birthright for a bowel of protage!

Jacob was blessed - Esau was not.

The sons of Jacob were slaves to the Egyptians and were the true Hebrews that were the "chosen" of the Old Testament.

The sons of Esau were not Jews - in that they followed the true God and true Faith - instead they invented JUDAISM, which Jesus and the New Testament CONDEMNS!

So we can see from the New Testament - that the followers of Judaism - who by their own admission have never been the slaves to any man - are NOT THE TRUE HEBREWS or Jews and hence their religion is FALSE!

This is why we find the Apostle St. John refering to them as the synogogue of satan.

Revelations: 2:9

"I know thy tribulation and thy poverty: but thou art rich. And thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Revelations 3:9

"Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee."

These sons of Esau have been very successful in their lies - and have gotton a great many "chrisitans" to believe their lies and even to aid them in establishing the kingdom of satan on earth.

They have been so successful that anyone who opposes them is immediately named an anti-semite and is considered a racist - and the lemmings keep being led by the nose and refuse to see the truth.

St. Paul in Scripture clearly says that the Jews are the enemies of all mankind - here by the term "jews" he clearly refers to the sons of Esau.

1 Thessalonians 2:13-16:

"For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.


If Produkt is not an actual son of Esau - he is indeed a spiritual one.

"A fool convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

One other thing worth mentioning is its impossible to prove anyone exsisted when you go far enough back in time. They are on paper, carved stone or artwork. Did they really exist? You can't prove it, you can only show things that point to the possibility. Even with many references it's just a piece of info you can use or not use to prove a point.

Get them on Video and then you have a real person.