Virginia class sub suited for the shallow waters off Iran

I just watched the NGC Megastructures program on the Virginia class sub. very interesting. I wouldn't be supprised if one isn't sitting off the coast of Iran right now


NSSN VIRGINIA CLASS ATTACK SUBMARINE, USA

The Virginia Class New Attack Submarine is an advanced stealth multi-mission nuclear powered submarine for deep ocean anti-submarine warfare and for littoral (shallow water) operations. Although the Seawolf submarine was developed to provide an eventual replacement for the US Navy Los Angeles Class submarines in combating the Soviet forces, the prohibitive unit cost and changing strategic requirements led to the US Navy defining a smaller new generation attack submarine.

channel.nationalgeographic.com...

you'll have to find out when its on again. it was impressive.

Wouldn't a sub in shallow water be a sitting duck?

Easy to spot from the air and from ships.... no matter what you make it from or how silent the engines run.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Wouldn't a sub in shallow water be a sitting duck?

Easy to spot from the air and from ships.... no matter what you make it from or how silent the engines run.

Shallow is a relative term. They are really designed for "Littoral" operations in addition to deep ocean. As long as the water is over 200 feet deep and they are not trolling off the coast of say Tahiti with that blue clear water they should be okay from a visual sighting. May be able to get a MAD reading off of them easier in shallow waters, but I doubt one would park itself right in the middle of a Iranian harbor.

That being said, the USS Virginia is the olnly one launched to date with the USS Texas due to be launched in a few months. Id be surprised if they had one parked out there when the 688 class subs are already adequate.

The Mission for this class is

Covert Strike by launching land-attack missiles from vertical launchers and torpedo tubes;
Anti-Submarine Warfare with an advanced combat system and a flexible payload of torpedoes;
Anti-Ship Warfare, again, using the advanced combat system and torpedoes;
Battle Group Support with advanced electronic sensors and communications equipment;
Covert Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance, using sensors to collect critical intelligence and locate radar sites, missile batteries and command sites as well as to monitor communications and track ship movements;
Covert Minelaying against enemy shipping; and
Special Operations, including search and rescue, reconnaissance, sabotage, diversionary attacks, and direction of fire support and strikes.
www.globalsecurity.org...

it can stay submerged for up to 3 months or more. it was a good late night program to watch. it didn't even need the year alotted for repairs after the shakedown cruise. very little went wrong during sea trials

[edit on 15-3-2006 by bigx01]

i would actually like to point something out that alot of people dont udnerstand the biggest problem with going into shallow water is that it is usally near land and you can get hit by torpedos becuase torpedos can go upto 40km distance and you can launch them from the edge of the country into shallow depth areas without actually having to step 1 foot into the water. there are many land launched torpedo systems configurations for example the basic is a helicopter that drops a sensor in the water and when it gets a lock calls for a torpedo from the land to hit the target by passing on information.

Originally posted by bigx01
it can stay submerged for up to 3 months or more. it was a good late night program to watch. it didn't even need the year alotted for repairs after the shakedown cruise. very little went wrong during sea trials

[edit on 15-3-2006 by bigx01]

3 months is a standard time for most nuclear subs, its limited by how much food they can carry. The standard RN patrol is 90 days of which 99.9% will be submerged.

When they say she is designed for littoral waters, you have to understand exactly what they mean. she will not go within a few miles of the coast in most places (depending on the seabed profile). You have to remember she is still a very BIG boat

Originally posted by iqonx
there are many land launched torpedo systems configurations for example the basic is a helicopter that drops a sensor in the water and when it gets a lock calls for a torpedo from the land to hit the target by passing on information.

But if the virginia class is as quiet as its supposed to be then the sensors and torpedos wont be able to pick it up.

Justin

Originally posted by justin_barton3

Originally posted by iqonx
there are many land launched torpedo systems configurations for example the basic is a helicopter that drops a sensor in the water and when it gets a lock calls for a torpedo from the land to hit the target by passing on information.

But if the virginia class is as quiet as its supposed to be then the sensors and torpedos wont be able to pick it up.

Justin

nothing is truely quit or invisible like the f-22 it can be seen the only difference stealth of sound or radar does it decrease the distance that it can be detected at. if yuo put enough sonar or whatever modern equivilent of it is in the watar they will be able to detect the sub becuase its close on the other hand if the sub was 100km away it would be impossible to detect. coming into a zone which is very tight like shallow water is like close quater combat any advantage you had at long range is sevearly reduced. kind of like a sniper would be wortless at 2 metres from the target the enemy could just shoot the sniper with a pistol.

dont get me wrong its not that easy to detect a sub even in shallow water its still incredibly hard even if you have thousands of self-homing torpedos and sonar there it would be very hard to detect especially all the decoys in the waters such as rock faces and such deflecting you detection system but it does severaly decrease the majority of advantages you have over your enemy kind of like an f-22 and a mig-21 in a 3km radius dogfight the stealth radar is pretty much useless at that distance when your enemy can see you out the window and shoot you with his cannons. same witht the shallow waters the closer you are to your enemy the more your BVR capabilites are reduced.

i dunno what measures various navies are ACTUALLY taking to counter such threats , but " if i ran the zoo " - and was in charge of ASW efforts in littorial waters against an advance foe with super stealth subs - i would start a MAJOR seabed mapping project

and rely on ACTIVE emmitters - in arrays -

the sonar equivilant of " ir beams " in building security - that measure the distance to a mirror on the wall opposite

it does not matter how stealthy the sub is - when it passes in fron to an emitter - the sensor will no longer see the emmitter on the see bed - and alarms will trigger

idealy these will aoutomatically fire a spigot motar system - or rockets - similar to the WWII hedgehog projectors

24 shaped charge warheads would land in a pattern - right on top of the sub - majour ouch

this sort of system would be costly - and limited in scale - but could pritect VIAL apporoaches and harbours

diring WWII - we [ the rn AND USN ] had entire units and training schools dedicated to ` boon defence ` - and the mainainence of torpedo nets and other measurews

now - no one has a clue - is it time to start relearning - using the advantages of modern electronics and materials ???

the american top millitary minds arent stupid. they will have thought of this and have either already found a solution (destruction of the torpedo launchers by arial bombardment maybe or special forces raid) or will find a solution before they send ships near enough to iran for the torpedoes to be a danger.

Justin

[edit on 15-3-2006 by justin_barton3]

a diesel boat with a good skipper will kill a nuke boat 90% of the time

Originally posted by Harlequin
a diesel boat with a good skipper will kill a nuke boat 90% of the time

The Virginia class is equipped with brand new best that money can buy state-of-the-art sonar that can detect even the better diesel-electric sub. And most countries that have diesel-electric subs that America might have to fight some day, don't have very good skippers.

[edit on 15-3-2006 by NWguy83]

One of the Littoral features of the Virginia class is that she can stay in one spot for days and weeks on end without ever moving in any direction. It has computer stabilized surfaces to help it remain virtually motionless despite currents. By the way the Virginia is the most sensitive (sonar wise) sub the US has, it has I believe 10 sonar arrays, and it has a chin turret with systems to help it detect enemy mines.

[edit on 15-3-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by Harlequin
a diesel boat with a good skipper will kill a nuke boat 90% of the time

Please cite the historical data that supports this incredible revelation. How many real Nuke vs Diesel submarine encounters have there been? How many underwater duels to th death have ever been?

I'm always amused at the way such statements are bandied about... Until the bullets start flying... Or in this case, the torpedos start running.

Zero Monkeys, not just for being the answer anymore...

with the ability to maneuver in shallow waters, to sit in one place for days on end, the ability to launch and retrieve covert ops teams, to get in close and gather intelligence, makes this one deadly vessel. not to mention the fact that it is a hunter killer also.

the best information they would give on NGC is that it can go below 800 feet, that with it's towed array it is dificult to sneak up on and that the ducted prop makes it extreemly quiet.

now we can make a good guess that it will go deeper than 800 feet based on what we know from previous subs.

my best guess is that it can probably opperate down below 1000 feet and probably deeper

Shhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Quiet!!!!!! Shhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!


Thanks,
Orangetom

The Virginia's that quiet huh?!

When you are on a US Submarine getting ready for sea..you sometimes see posters on the doors or bulkheads that say

"Think Quiet"

To remind the sailors what one of the goals twords which they are working. ..to be quite...the silent service so to speak. Very Quiet.

THe reference to bigx 01 is not to say to much on performance data also...this too is " Quiet" Understand??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Being quiet only gets you so far; a torpedo will find you using active sonar witch sends sound waves in all directions and then it analyzies the waves bounceing back and follows a route based on it's analysis. Nuke vs Diesel
In that battle the nuclear sub will win, our sailors are among the very best trained in the world, most countries with diesel boats have training programs that are not up to par with the USN's.

True about the torpedos..Senor Vicente. But Submarines are usually gathering some kind of intelligence information. They dont usually struggle to give away any noise. By being quiet it helps their listening capability... also keeps them more undetectable if they dont do anything to stand out. Submarines are not in the habit of making any noise until they absolutely must do so. Its just the nature of this beast.

Hence..."Think Quiet" is the religion or religious dogma. Woe to any sailor on the team who does not live this mantra under way.

Thanks,
Orangetom