Tough Crowd?

What is your opinion is ATS a tough crowd? What I mean is first there are the sceptics. Who I don't mind really because some of Psi is provable. Scepticism only becomes difficult for someone when they are describing things that actually happened to them but there is no proof of. Still it would be nice to be believed on things that can't be proven.

Then you have people who only think Psi can happen to people if they are among the faithful, and believe in God, Buddha, etc. and anything else is probably not real. If someone says I did this thing myself without having to go to a Higher Power than they are suspect. Either they are not giving some Higher Power credit, or they are egotistical. What about people who have other creative gifts like music, art, mathematical abilities, althetic abilities...society has no problem with these people taking credit for the work they put into studying for their ability, practicing for their ability, developing their ability, and suceeding or failing in their ability? Why is Psi different from that? Of course, not even creative people can take credit for being born with a gift. That is something that happened due to luck, genetics, or perhaps design by a higher being.

Then I have meant intellectuals who say some methods are wrong, such as self studying, and learning through experience. These people love experts, books, and studies, and if you haven't gone through those hoops, it doesn't matter what you can do, because that doesn't count either.

Then you have people who do some Psi/Pk things that other people may feel threatened, frightened, and worried by, or can't understand why they can't do it...so these people are also suspect.

Does anyone find such sentiments antiproductive, or is it ok with everyone that these attitudes exist here? I know these attitudes flourish in the real world. But do people that are coming here to share their paranormal experiences find themselves inhibited/intimidated from speaking at all about their paranormal experiences, because of others belief systems?

Would anyone would like to venture an opinion?

[edit on 12-3-2006 by DeeplyAwake]

Hi,

I believe that ATS is very much the world of the jaded souls. We have seen so many things that have been shot down or proven hoaxes for so long its pretty difficult to actually take someone at their word when it comes to conspiracies and such.

That is both the blessing and the curse of ATS.

Then again, how someone is received often depends on the story they are telling and how they tell it. I've seen people make posts saying they know the whole truth and are here to enlighten the world. Those people usually end up crucified. Others who come on with an open mind and a caring disposition, wanting to share and grow with the other members, are usually well received and given the benifit of the doubt.

Hope this helps my dear,

Wupy

Thanks Wupy, for your thoughtful comments! Yes, I hear what you are saying. It is hard to believe in conspiracies and the paranormal, when there have been people here intentionally trying to do hoaxes or outright lie. And, I bet the longer you have been here at ATS the more you have seen of that sort of thing.

And, I have seen the openminded caring side here too. Where we are all just people trying to understand other people.

And nobody likes a bragger or a know it all...that's so True! Although, some people here actually do know a hec of a lot I think...and I love learning from them.

You cheered me up ty!

p.s.

Although I guess part of what I was also talking about is even if you do come on with the right truthful attitude, it is hard to please everyone all the time, and sometimes people take exception to what you are saying, because of their own belief systems. I haven't had too much of this happen to me, because I have tried to be careful about what I say, so as not to tread on anothers belief system or theory, or so as not to appear 'braggy'. I have been reading the threads to try and see what/where the potential hurdles are. I always bring a flashlight along to help, when I am fumbling around in the dark. Although, I'm still a clutz and trip anyway..lol!



[edit on 12-3-2006 by DeeplyAwake]

Sometime you should drop in on the sites where there's no "tough crowd" and take a good look at what people post and want others to believe. I find it kind of chilling that anyone can come in there and post the most ridiculous things and everyone will support them.

Skeptics are people that contain a lot of fear in my eyes and rely on rationality to overcome overwhelming emotions that they do not feel comfortable expressing. Just my opinion of course.

Originally posted by DeeplyAwake
Although, some people here actually do know a hec of a lot I think...and I love learning from them.

Amen to that. I've met some seriously intelligent people on this board. People that I would never even have approached in the real world seem perfectly at ease sharing and teaching what they know with the rest of us slackers.

I think thats why I hang around here so much. Its like getting a free education thats both fun and enlightening.

Love and light,

Wupy

Sometime you should drop in on the sites where there's no "tough crowd" and take a good look at what people post and want others to believe. I find it kind of chilling that anyone can come in there and post the most ridiculous things and everyone will support them.

I've been there. Some people out there are disgustingly misinformed. I feel that skeptics are a necessary part of any sort of group. It keeps ideas from getting ridiculously out of hand. The best kind of skeptic, of course, is one that remains open-minded, however.

People that I would never even have approached in the real world seem perfectly at ease sharing and teaching what they know with the rest of us slackers.

True. The Internet is great at removing your inhibitions. Somehow the fear of rejection, etc is greatly lessened. I suppose it's the fact that you can choose to never talk to/see someone again with the click of a button. There is no doubt that some of the best information I have come across: practical, spiritual, paranormal, etc has come from the Internet.

When it comes to freedom of information, the Internet is God. More information than you could ever want is at your fingertips. I have this saying, "Google knows all." Honestly, you could pose any inquiry and probably find the answer with Google.

Then I have meant intellectuals who say some methods are wrong, such as self studying, and learning through experience. These people love experts, books, and studies, and if you haven't gone through those hoops, it doesn't matter what you can do, because that doesn't count either.

Unfortunately I tend to fall into this camp some of the time. I find myself researching and learning far more than actually DOING. It is especially important to many areas of the paranormal to remember to actually get in the field and get your hands dirty, not just reading what other people say about any particular subject. Gather information for yourself. It is far better to know based on your own experience, than to just blindly believe what someone else says. There are a lot of people out there with all the book smarts and all the fancy talk, but they have never experienced anything themselves.

As for the idea of ATS being a "tough crowd", I offer the following:
The truth cannot possibly be rejected by a reasonable person.

Most people accept that the Earth is round. Most people accept that gravity keeps you from jumping off the planet. Sure there are a few crazies out there, but for the most part, people will believe the PROOF.

The thing is, we haven't had a lot of truth/proof so far in regards to the paranormal. But it is my honest opinion that if the 'para'-normal or 'super'-natural is indeed true, it will eventually be proven to be normal and natural. The undenyable proof will eventually surface. People will shake hands with extraterrestrials. People will be able to dissect a bigfoot for themselves. All truths will eventually be uncovered. All lies will eventually be exposed. Good will always triumph over evil. Just because the skeptics don't believe you yet, doesn't mean you won't be making them eat crow in the future.

[edit on 12-3-2006 by Yarcofin]

Originally posted by DeeplyAwake
Scepticism only becomes difficult for someone when they are describing things that actually happened to them but there is no proof of. Still it would be nice to be believed on things that can't be proven.

There is a strong attitude of truth-seeking at ATS, so if you hope to share your theories or observations without any serious critical examination, you may be disappointed. However, you should absolutely expect the pursuit of truth to go both ways: To shut down an idea without giving it a chance isn't seeking the truth either.

In my opinion, it is the attitude of mutual respect and truth-seeking between believers and skeptics here at ATS that elevates it above all other forums of this type. When confronted with the unprovable, a considerate ATS skeptic won't respond immediately with "I don't believe you", but instead will respond with "I need (more) proof before I'll believe you." There are exceptions, of course, as there will always be in an open Internet forum. Try to be patient, the real inconsiderate people will probably eventually say something to get themselves banned anyway.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Skeptics are people that contain a lot of fear in my eyes and rely on rationality to overcome overwhelming emotions that they do not feel comfortable expressing. Just my opinion of course.

I disagree denythestatusquo. Although some people may reject new ideas out of fear, these are not skeptics in my mind. Skeptics simply want to believe in the truth.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
As for the idea of ATS being a "tough crowd", I offer the following:
The truth cannot possibly be rejected by a reasonable person.

I think everyone (believers, skeptics, and everyone in between) should chant this mantra three times each time they sign onto ATS.

"Tough Crowd"...rarely to never seen any of those around here. Most people come and share their knowledge and ideas and experiences. The "sceptics" aren't realy here I feel, but there are a lot of rational people that ask questions. Perfectly natural and it'll get rid of a lot of topics that are nothing but fantasy and will keep everyone down to earth.

There are many forums I've come across that don't have such a crowd to balance it all out. On such boards you get a lot of fluffy bunny love talk and the most amazing stories from people that lost touch with the world. Everyone supports each other, everyone thinks they are an indigo kid and are so damn special. Huge ego's where authistic behavior is promoted. And then there are many religious communities which talk about devilish/demonic stuff and make everything a lot scarier then it actually is.

Here at ATS it is pretty balanced out although there are extreme opposites, but not as much as you find elsewhere.

I'll post a quote of what I placed elsewhere...

Originally posted by Enyalius
Don't confuse Skeptics with Scientists.

Scientists indeed keep an open mind, well most of em. They don't think "oh it's not proven so it can't be". No they will form theories and ideas about a posibility that it could be true or not and then investigate. Their findings will then be presented to a form of tribunal where they can present their findings. If other scientists can confirm it all then it is accepted as being proven to be or not to be.

Sceptics say before hand "It's not proven so therefore it isn't so". Sceptics are nothing more then science wanna-be's. No matter what proof you present they will always find means with equally invalid views and standpoints to proof their own point. So it is usually a "your word vs mine"-argument. Depending on how open both sides for another standpoint determines the amount of flaming/mudslinging taking place between them. Both the sceptic and believer will rationalize an idea to be "right" in their point of view. Anyone who disagrees is seen as making an attack on their point and thus their ego feels attacked. Heated discussions over nothing.

A scientist would come in between the 2 groups and say. It is Not proven to be nor is it proven to be. But I shall investigate and share my findings with you. A scientist and Occultist are very similar...both seek evidence and do research and try to find balance in almost anything.

I too do research and try to proof certain aspects. But for who are you doing the research? For yourself? Or to better mandkind and give them more insight? I personally don't care for sceptics and having to deliver proof to them. It's not my problem they can't see more then there is nor does it bother me in the slightest

[edit on 13-3-2006 by Enyalius]

Hi, Thanks everyone for all your points of view! They were all honest and encouraging and on the high end of the brain train! I think they gave me and whoever else is semi-new a good perspective on ATS, and the kind of people who are here. Tough but Fair people. Not pushovers but not stifflers, either. If you don't mind I will say something to all of you, but don't let that be the 'Kiss of Death' on this thread. If more people would like to post I would love to hear your viewpoints also. Because all of your posts have made me think.

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Soccer, You made a good point. Not very interesting if things are ridiculously unbelievable. Might as well be doing something else with your time then wasting it in La La Land.

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MrWupy, I will never turn down anything that's free, not even a free education..lol. Love and Light to you too!! Thank you.

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Deny, I feel the same way as you do about skeptics that come in only to flame..that they are fearful, but I believe some questions are needed as checks and balances, and by people asking us for proof it makes us try harder to prove things, still that's difficult and maddening sometimes for the average person, because scientists have their funded research and we don't. Without proof we have only our experiences and the hope we will be believed. It would be difficult and expensive to do some of the research that is needed to prove/disprove much on many paranormal things. Plus, scientists can't even prove many paranormal things. People can do what they can do, witness and record what they can, and take along cameras and hope to catch a pic of an orb, or a ghost, or record an evp. People can do Psi/Pk tests, and hopefully skeptics will acknowledge those. SteveR and his team is doing good work here with PK and keeping records of their trials, and videos.

Fortunately there doesn't seem to be any 'hard nosed skeptics' here, people are reasonable and willing to listen. And, if we all listen to each others stories (both proven and nonproven) and listen to the truth we may find clues/commonalities that will put us on the road to a better discovery. So, I believe it's very important no true account proven or unproven remains untold. That's really why I started this thread, it's so people would realize how important their truth is, and that there are people here who will grant them the telling. I am so glad everyone came forward and said the things they said, because you just might help someone feel brave enough to tell their story...whose story may trigger something off in you. Someone who is maybe afraid of being doubted, of being called a wacko, or judged in some other way.

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Hi There, Yarco, As you said the best kind of skeptic is the one who remains open minded. I Agree... well put! We need proof and without people telling their accounts of the phenomenon they have witnessed/experienced the scientists would not know of anything to research, or write books about. Without the peoples testimonies into UFO's they have seen, without psychics and telekinetic people to extensively do research on, what would any of us have? Scientists know what they know about ESP because psychics who have the gift of telepathy told them how they felt, and how it works, and about their visions. That's how it started anyway. Then scientists came up with their own tests to try and explain things and prove things to their own satisfaction, studying brain waves, and light spectrums and particles and waves..and btw...

Have you seen this video by Ross Rhodes on the Double Slit experiment? "The Central Mystery of Quantum Mechanics". I haven't watched the whole thing (because I can't get stuff to load...it takes ages) and it doesn't get into the Psi mystery part until towards the end. But, one of my scientific type friends told me it was very good. Thought you might like it.

www.bottomlayer.com...

You said: "People will shake hands with extraterrestrials. People will be able to dissect a bigfoot for themselves. All truths will eventually be uncovered. All lies will eventually be exposed. Good will always triumph over evil. Just because the skeptics don't believe you yet, doesn't mean you won't be making them eat crow in the future."


I sure hope we figure out some of this stuff before I die of curiosity..lol. And, if not hopefully in the afterlife they will tell me all about in a study group. Thanks for all your help.

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Ahoy There Saltman!!! , You said "There is a strong attitude of truth-seeking at ATS, so if you hope to share your theories or observations without any serious critical examination, you may be disappointed. However you should absolutely expect the pursuit of truth to go both ways: To shut down an idea without giving it a chance isn't seeking the truth either."

Yes I agree.

"Try to be patient, the real inconsiderate people will probably eventually say something to get themselves banned anyway"
LOL Saltman!

I think everyone (believers, skeptics, and everyone in between) should chant this mantra three times each time they sign onto ATS.

Here!!! Here!!! Right On!

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LOL Enyalius, Lmao at "everyone thinks they are an Indigo kid and so damn special!" Not me I think I'm a Crystal kid (that's a more evolved Indigo kid...Lol..just kidding).

I love your post "Don't confuse Skeptics with Scientists". I think you differentiated between the two types very well. Scientists are calm and cool and mean business, and go through all the steps and do the research. True full-time skeptics are irritating. And the skeptics don't go and try to prove anything and do research like the scientists do. Although, I think a person can be skeptical without being a skeptic, as you said a rational people asking questions. Hey! Maybe some people who call themselves skeptics here, really are only rational people asking questions and not skeptics at all! Especially the people who are doing research on their own.







[edit on 13-3-2006 by DeeplyAwake]

When I came here to ats I started posting in a few different boards while I found that I could talk to people about things I had to deal with their thoughts aswell.

So I began to post only in the para board,no one really talked to me
so I just started replying to others giving what info i could and learning much at the same time.

I have started to do alot here now on ats and have gained respect amongst many members,but no one in other places talk to me
in the podspace board I rarely have had any kind of input at all,I was starting to lose faith and think that no one cared when Deeply Awake came and found me,somewhere or somehow.

I think I should thank a few more members aswell,Mr.Wupy makes me feel welcome and HMITD too thats in podspace.As far as ATS as a whole I have interacted with alot of the staff and I must say what a great bunch of people,always helping me with what ever issue I have.Thank you so much!!

It might be that im new here but as far as getting anywhere with alot of the members I have been trying hard and I am starting to get somewhere
I now consider some of you my friends like Picklewalsh and sparhawk(where is he?),and you Deep.

It takes time effort and good posting.Be careful as to what you say.Try not to direct it at anyone but thats me.

Scarecrow

I have to say that from my short time here on ATS I have found both. While I believe that ATS has a tough crowd in some instances, I think also that it seems to be a fair and more or less objective crowd. What I try to remember and others should also is that there are people who regular this site who are experts at their chosen field and take their research and credibility very seriously. So when a noob like myself will come along and post a thread that seems to be brilliant and original in my own eyes..lol,...I often forget that the same topic has probably been done to death already and my limited input is most likely viewed as useless and amateur in the eyes of those who have been at this for years.

I also must say that I have encountered more highly intelligent people on this board than any other site to date, which is why I keep coming back. It is impossible to learn anything of use from people that are dumber than you are. But the downside is that within such a gigantic community of highly enlightened and highly educated people it will be near impossible to pull the wool over anyones eyes or sneak garbage past as good info, because you WILL be called on it. Overall I have had good experiences so far and met a lot of very friendly and interesting people, and the few who have been less than cordial certainly had their reasons (im learning to try and steer clear of the WOT threads altogether..lol...that whole avoiding politics and religion thing) .

Most here seem at least patient and willing to listen and are polite and helpful. That's about all you can ask for. Like someone else said before, if there were no skeptics and nobody here keeping this place grounded in reality it would certainly become another of many of these conspiracy type sites that already exist that are unreadable and virtual wastelands of stupidity and mindless drivel. Im glad that I joined here and I would recommend this site to anyone who shared an interest - after all, it's not every place you go that you can debate the various methods of alien impregnation with 300 other people and not have your sanity questioned repeatedly.....lol..cheers

[edit on 15-3-2006 by BlackOps719]

Hello Tor!!

Excellent advice as always. You wrote that you "started replying to others giving what info... (you)...could and learning much at the same time."

What a wonderful unpresumptious beginning you gave yourself. You are a natural at knowing the ways of people. You were not pushy...only helpful and humble, and people respected you for that. Also, you make other people feel valued, and that is an awesome thing! When you give out that type of energy you will get that back and then some extra coming back to you. In this scary age it is important not to make people feel 'threatened' in any way. And yet, sometimes it's hard to avoid it. No matter what one's opinions may be...it can be threatening to anothers belief system...especially if as you say its not carefully put. As you wisely said take time and effort posting and try not to direct it at anyone..very sound advice!!!

Also, I thought the advice you gave new members on your 'Scarecrow Report' #1 Podcast was very wise and encouraging and supportive, see link below:

#1
www.abovetopsecret.com...


I just noticed you out there swinging Tor, in fact, I came to this site because of your post on Psi Experiments. I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you. It's like fate. The Gotpsi website was down and I was bored and I put Gotpsi in the browser, and found that ATS had a thread (started by you) about the games at Gotpsi. So, I came here (from the other side of Cyperspace) to read what you and others said on that thread, and have been here ever since. And, also I have followed all your posts and have enjoyed them since I came here. Also, your music videos and Podcast adventures and advice series..are great. Thank You for your kind words and for all your efforts!!

Yes, I like Mr.Wupy too, he's a true gentleman! So, is Yarco, he was very helpful to me on the Astral projection thread, and has helped me on other threads. And, I like several other people here, Menguard, SteveR, Be Bop, Iori, and others. If I forgot someone..sorry... its just because it's past my bedtime.

You are one of my friends now too Tor. We are sympatico in spirit and have gone through some of the same things in life. I look forward to more learning and sharing with you here.

~ Deep







[edit on 15-3-2006 by DeeplyAwake]

Hi BlackOps!!

Your post was great!! Killing must not be your only business because you are a great writer too!

You said: "What I try to remember and others should also is that there are people who regular this site who are experts at their chosen field and take their research and credibility very seriously. So when a noob like myself will come along and post a thread that seems to be brilliant and original in my own eyes..lol,...I often forget that the same topic has probably been done to death already and my limited input is most likely viewed as useless and amateur in the eyes of those who have been at this for years."

Yes that is sooo true. Except in your case, even if its amateur I am sure the experts find it humourous, intelligent, and entertaining! I forget what a dingus I am sometimes, and yet I have been told by many that I am a 'truly bizarre' person. (But wait...those people who think I'm bizarre weren't people from here...they were 'normal' people...LOL). So far, my usefullness to science has been more in the way of being a guinea pig tho. I guess I get excited at my own evolution, when something occurs to me, even if everyone else already knows about it.

ROFL at what you wrote "It is impossible to learn anything of use from people that are dumber than you are." and Also,

"Im glad that I joined here and I would recommend this site to anyone who shared an interest - after all, it's not every place you go that you can debate the various methods of alien impregnation with 300 other people and not have your sanity questioned repeatedly.....lol..cheers "

Where is that alien impregnation post?? I'll have to go read it now!!!

~ Deep



[edit on 15-3-2006 by DeeplyAwake]