Judas Gospel To Be Published

Originally posted by MadGreebo
Judas was doing the devils work when he betrayed Jesus. Thats why his punishment from God was so bad.

A sect that supports him? well I guess its kind of like having a religion that glorifies the Devils work, like second hand satanism.... lol

Sorry but thats the most uninformed answer I've ever heard, grow up, God isn't a entity bent on punishing...


People've got it all wrong...

First of all, it was his own conciousness that led him to suicide. NOT Your idea of GOD

and second

You aren't concious enough to understand what God is.... Neither am I.

Thirdly, .... Jesus, THE Christ, was merely showing us the pattern to obtain Christ conciousness, he showed us the possibilities of man, the possibilties of our mind/conciousness.


Judas sold out Jesus because Judas thought it would be a good idea for Jesus to speak privately with the "officials" and explain himself and teach them.... Judas never thought he was sending Jesus to be executed, or he would never have actually done it, ...

Its as if a world renowned teacher your very familiar with (Best friends) is misunderstood by a bunch of "leading experts" and they call you to them and offer you money to tell you where he is, so they can speak with him....
Same thing... they never explained to Judas they were going to kill Jesus, heck half of the disciples had no idea what Jesus was talking about when he told them he was going to leave them to a place where they cannot follow...

I just saw a recent add for this thing on television. The add presents it as a gospel unheard of before, that is still being translated, and that its 'secrets' are being unlocked.

Which is unfortunate, they go for hype and sensationalism rather than serious consideration, but what else can we expect from television.

Things to remember about the other Gospels:

1. They were written ABOUT Jesus, not BY Jesus, therefore they're merely points of views rather than fact.

2. They were all written ~30 years after Jesus' death, and after 30 years it wouldn't be that easy to recall, easily, everything you knew about a certain person.

3. They don't know everything about Jesus, they were merely close friends. And so if Jesus did have discussions with Judas, they wouldn't of known about it.

Why the carbon dating on the gospel of Judas doesn't matter:

1. This is not the original writing, the original would of been written in Hebrew, not greek.

2. (assuming it's true) This would be a writing of Judas' follower's follower, two-three generations down, if you know how they preserved books and such back then you'd know what I'm talking about.

Also, I don't know if it's true or not, I wouldn't oppose thinking it is.
But if they're true:

It'd be a beautiful situation, poetically.

In order to obey Jesus, he had to betray Jesus. Kind like from creation comes destruction, and from destruction comes creation.

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Originally posted by forestlady
There is a show on National Geographic channel in April about the Judas gospel. I imagine we might know more after seeing that. I haven't heard of it before, you'd think it would have been in MSM by now. Go figure.

The people who own it are rather dubious, supposedly. They have done a deal with National Geographic to publicise it in the US. That's why no-one else has a look in.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

So you are suggesting that it is a forgery then? It should be quite easy to determine whether the actual document itself is a forgery or not. At that point it is up to people to decide for themselves if what it says is true or not. Many Christians fed on King James heavily edited NT (based on Catholic Church 5th century), will not find favour with it that is for sure.

King James went through the bible knit-picking what he liked and what he didn't, supposedly he removed a couple pages where Moses was seeing bright red "flaming discs" in the sky, in Egypt.

Also I know the Vatican censored a lot of books and such, and over the years a lot of people wanted to remove Revelation because it "didn't make sense", I know that Martin Luther King Jr. wanted the former, etc.

..

I think you are thinking of Martin Luther, no?

Glad I was pointed to this thread. (thanks, nygdan)

Couple of things I'd like to inject about the specific manuscript being "launched" by the Mycaenas Foundation and National Geographic. (as a paris paper pointed out, "since when are scholarly documents 'launched?' It sounds more like a software release than a scientific study.")

Basically, these are points I made on this other thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

1. This manuscript has been floating around the antiquities world for 30 years now. Only being translated now because "Da Vinci Code" is due in theatres next month.

2. This manuscript is widely suspected of being stolen. The Aboutaam brothers, who "acquired" the document and sold it to NatGeog., are wanted in Egypt, and possibly the US. Recent buyers of their offerings have begun returning them. (Surely the National Geographic is aware of this????) newspaper clippings of misconduct, fraud by Aboutaam brothers

3 Some have suggested that Judas so closely resembles the Nag Hammadi scrolls because it was originally one of them, and was stolen, possibly from the Cairo Museum, which for years had no genuine security or even cataloguing procedures (!)

4. Even more interestingly, the Judas manuscript, while contemporaneous with the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, is written with a different ink. From what I can gather, an iron gall ink was used, a type of ink that didn't become common until 200 years later. (Although this was not widely known, when Judas surfaced on the antiquities market, in the 1970's.

Other documents, some even older, are iron based. But those earlier documents (such as the Dead Sea scrolls) are inked with iron inks derived from copperas (iron sulfate). If what NatGeo is saying is accurate, Judas was penned in ink made from the iron galls of moths who laid eggs in the bark of oak trees. Like I mentioned before, this ink didn't catch on until several hundred years later. It would be unprecedented in Coptic texts because iron galls would, I believe, need to have been imported to Egypt, probably from Turkey, Italy or Spain.

While these problems don't prove it's a forgery, they are anomalies that will need to be explained.

NatGeo claims, according to an article in the India Times, that the ink on Judas is a blend of iron and carbon inks, according to spectrographic analysis.

The thing about carbon inks is that they are easily rubbed off from the surface of papyrus. Indeed, a way for a skilled forger to fake a papyrus would be to take an authentic old document, such as a bill for a monastery or a grant of land, and remove the original ink and replace it with something more interesting, perhaps a gnostic gospel. The page would still carbon date to the correct period. . .

Anyway, what are the chances that a document from the 4th century contains both revolutionary ideas and revolutionary inks?

It is certainly possible; but it will be that much more startling, if it proves to be authentic.

.

I just find it to be too opportune. Religious based concepts have never been hotter, what with Dan Browns' novel, TextThe Da Vinci Code, being a best seller and now being released as a major motion film. I can't help but feel that the discovery of this "ancient" manuscript is simply too convenient.

[edit on 4/14/2006 by benevolent tyrant]

Originally posted by MadGreebo
Judas was doing the devils work when he betrayed Jesus. Thats why his punishment from God was so bad.

A sect that supports him? well I guess its kind of like having a religion that glorifies the Devils work, like second hand satanism.... lol

BUT BUT BUT, if he didnt turn him over to the romans Jesus wouldnt have died for our sins and we would ALL be going to hell or purgatory

[edit on 14-4-2006 by fattytheking]

Actually, I used to play chess with a dude named Kerry Wendell Thornley. He was pretty messed up, partly due to the fact that his bunkmate back in the Marines was a dude named Lee Harvey Oswald.

Thornley came to believe that all the men in his unit were being brainwashed to become what would later be called "manchurian candidates."

Thornley published several works in which he claimed that, if Oswald had died before the assassination of JFK, one of the others from that marine unit would have been brought forward and been made to do the deed.

Now, the reason I bring this up is because of something Jesus says to Peter:

Luke 22:31-32 (NIV)

"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

(the first "you" in the above quote, plural, like "y'all")

sifting, or allowing something to trickle through your fingers (in Greek, the term is used of coins, and also appears in Judas' betrayal to the authorities), seems to indicate a person being led into Satan's hand . . . .

Note that Jesus knows that Peter at least, will turn back.

Nothing you can draw a conclusion from, but definitely an interesting choice of words . . .

Thornley suggested that, at certain "turning points of history," there are a variety of people who are cultivated by unseen forces for the correct role in the ongoing drama.

So, as regards the JFK assassination, Thornley believed there was a whole pool of young men who could have been made to step forward and do the deed, if Oswald had backed out.

Thornley suggested that, had Judas failed to betray Christ at the crucial moment in world history, one of the other disciples would have stepped forward and committed the deed.
.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

Ifind it strange that only four Apostles wrote Gospels and the other 8 did not. Perhaps if Peter's Gospel version were included, (He was the one who denied Christ three times before dawn) the gospels would become cloudy fo surely Peter would have a much different opinion on how the denial prophecy came true.

I have a feeling Judas' gospel goes a little like this..... This is purely SPECULATION on my part, so don't take it as gospel....

It is said that Judas was not portrayed as the traitor he was made out to be in the other testaments. In fact, Judas writes that it was Jesus who insisted that he turn him over to the Roman soldiers at Gethsemane. Judas at first refused knowing he would be damned for all time as the traitor who turned Jesus over. Jesus told Judas that he was the strongest of faith of the Apostles. He told Judas that Peter would deny him, and that Thomas needed exact proof before he would believe. The other Apostles all had small weaknesses except for Judas. Judas had blind faith. He would do anything for his Lord. And he did.

Judas wrote that after Jesus explained what had to occur, he reluctantly agreed and they both began devising their plan. Jesus being a gentle man, did not want any violence or bloodshed when he was captured. It would have to be when he was away from the crowds. The destiny of both Jesus and Judas would be set in motion when it was decided that Judas would go to the priests and speak to them about Jesus losing control of the crowds of people worshipping him and now calling him the Messiah. Judas would claim he was fearful for the entire population if Rome became concerned with this man called Jesus. Judas was paid for his efforts, the notorious 30 pieces of silver and told the priests where they could find Jesus away from the crowd. The rest is history.

This version is very different from the other four "Official" Gospels. Judas was portrayed as a traitor, acting alone giving Jesus up to the Romans for a hefty sum of silver. But, according to Judas, he was doing the Lords bidding, and a deal between him and the Lord would only be known to Judas and Jesus. Until today.

This version has merit for in every conspiracy and assassination, the first order of business is to silence the assassin. Judas gives up Jesus, the other 11 Apostles conspire and make public a report, a history of the events that took place to be recorded as history and believed to be fact. Judas was then silenced by an apparent suicide.

If you would simply replace Judas with Oswald, and the Apostles with the Warren commission, and Jesus with Kennedy, history sort of repeated itself. Not once, but time after time throughout the ages.

Maybe in 50 or so years, hidden documents will shed new light on the Kennedy assassination. Perhaps a hidden document, or photo, or manuscript, detailing the days events as they really were, not what the Warren commission and media led us to believe. Perhaps a man in a few years from now will be on his death bed, and will look up to the nurses aid and reveal the location of this precious information.

Three days later Christ rose from the dead and returned to the Apostles to proclaim everlasting life to all those who believed in him. But that is another story.

How long has the judas gospel been known for? I recall that there were other people discussing alternate interpretations of some of hte cannonical gospels, wherein the words used to describe judas don't imply 'evil traitor' so much as merely the one that 'hands him over'.

Is that something that was becoming popular because the private owners of this gospel were trying to prep the media for these shows that are about the gospel? OR was the basic information therein already known, and it was just a coincidence?

This manuscript has been floating around since at least 1989 that I know of.

A large number of scholars have been around to look it over, in the hopes of piquing their interest, and the backing of their respective institutions as potential purchases.

The "sneak peaks" have probably had the opposite effects.

I think Irenaeus, in his "Against Heresies" probably gives us more information about gnostic attitudes toward Judas that this recently released document does; Irenaeus catalogues various groups, and details how they differed from "the church" (in his opinion, naturally.).

[ Edit: I read Ireanaeus more than a decade ago, but I remember him refering to the "Cainites," who, he says, worship the villains of the Bible, especially Cain and Judas.]

Mark, usually assumed to be the earliest gospel usually refers to "Judas, who would betray him."

Luke (which I believe to be a partial reworking of Matthew, with some new material), and John, both refer explicitly to Satan entering into Judas, at Luke 22:3 and John 13:2 and 13:27.

.

[edit on 15-4-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

So much speculation, Yet it seems little is mentioned of a historical approach to the Gospel of Thomas.

The Judas manuscript was written about 200-300 AD. It is mentioned by "Name" 100 years earlier. (It is a copy of a earlier manuscript of uncertain date?)The Closest "real" date we could assign the Judas Gospel is around 150AD.

The Gospel itself was written by a obscure gnostic sect called the Cainites. Who Switched the "hero's and villians" around in the old testement. Cain, Esau, the sodomites, etc. Were thier Heroes. And Seth, Jacob, Abraham was the Villians.

They opposed the Evil "god" in the old testement, And deliberatly broke every one of his laws. In order to "gain" perfect knowledge. They honered the serpent in the garden of Eden. As one of the "perfect". And Jesus was a manifestation of the serpent as well. (Both were sent out of heaven by "sophia".)

The Cainites were the "anton levoy's" of the ancient past. Or a hedonistic Counter culture group of yesteryear. Which is why Irenaeus got his panties in a uproar!

Basic summery: The other apostles are idiots, Judas alone get's it, And Jesus gives the keys of heaven to Judas. (Keys of heaven> revealed knowledge of the Celestial)

Ignore what the rest of us self professed idiots state. And read it yourself.

Gospel of Judas:
www.nytimes.com...

Edit: Judas not Thomas.

[edit on 16-4-2006 by msnevil]

If it was not for Judas and the death on the cross by the Romans what would the christians be worshipping now. His sandals? His cloak? His last pooh? His wife?

Originally posted by Vinci
1. This is not the original writing, the original would of been written in Hebrew, not greek.

Not necessarily. An educated person (and it would take one to write it down), could have written it in either Hebrew or Greek, Greek being the popular, official language of the time.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'll ask again ....

Christ said that it would be better for the person who betrayed him
to never have been born.

So which is it .... Is the Judas Gospel true which makes Christ a liar and a
deciever ..... Or is the Judas Gospel just a work of fiction entertainment for
those of the year 300???

It has to be one or the other.

I am quoting this from the other thread since we can no longer reply to it.
now lets pretend for a moment that I am NOT a agnostic.. and actually believe that christ was the son of god.
This does not mean even if what has been found to be true.. vs. what christ said.. that christ is a liar.
It WOULD be better for JUDAS is he had not been born.. because he had to suffer the hatred of all followers of christ.. the one he loved and followed.. til the end of time because of the great sacrifice that he agreed to make so that what was meant to be.. would actually happen. No it wouldn't be better for mankind if Judas had never been born.. but considering what he needed to do and the consequences.. for judas personally it would have been better if he had never been born.. however he chose to do what Christ needed him to do even though the consequences for him were dire.

You misinterpretted his words. It makes perfect sense to me.. and I am not even a christian.

I think that Christians have gotten used to having someone to blame for christs untimely death.. when they of all people should know that it needed to happen or life as we know it for them would not be the same.

geez think about it for a minute.. put your lifelong brainwashing aside and just THINK about it for a while.:shk:

Wow msnevil, that is a great find. www.nytimes.com...

Its a translation of the Judas Gospel?

The thing is just dripping with angelology and neoplatonic ideas, it even seems like there is some of that 'soul solstitial gates' being hinted at within it!

I'll have to look into this Cainites group a bit. I am confused at the mixing of angelology and the neoplatonic ideas (like the aeons, the realm of ideas, etc), and the jewish ideas. In one part its written as one of the disciples calling jesus Rabbi, which seems like it means that the author was in a jewish context.

I have read about how teh kabbala and neoplatonism are connected to each other through the assyrian religions, in the form of an assyrian Sephiroth. Also of interest here is that the Yezidi, of northern iraq, are 'devil' worshippers, who have a complex angelology, AND were at least originally though to be a relic population of the ancient assyrians.

Fascinating.

This idea of Judas acting on Jesus' wishes makes me think of two things mainly -

1. parrots - there's even a pieces of eight / silver coins link

2. beardy pirate outlaws


I hope this isn't too whimsical to be ok to be included here.

I find it strange that only four Apostles wrote Gospels and the other 8 did not.

there is no compelling evidence that the 4 canonical gospels were written by those named as the authors.

As Judas was a member of an elite part of the Zelote movement perhaps he was offered a pardon from the Romans.

It was the Romans that arrested the Rabbi, Tried the Rabbi, and allegedly executed the Rabbi as a rebel.

Any one ever wondered why such a large number of troops was dispatched to arrest 1 man known to be accompanied by only 12 followers?