SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq

strange, was that all you could find?

And while you were searching for war attrocities, did you also manage to find any other attrocities performed by other people of other nations?

I'm sure the British are no little angels too. This is war, no one's perfect, accidents happen. If you expect every single shot, every explosion, every death to have a purpose and to be rightful, then you have another thing coming.

So it wasn't fair of you to give so few accounts pertaining to only that of the US, when I'm positive that other nations have had their own problems too. This is war, war is not dandy, things do not happen exactly the way you want to in war. This is the way things are, they will always be like this, all we can do is either blame our troopers or support them.

Shattered OUT...

Thank you shattered but I think we've got most of what britain has done during our last 100 years so can we all just "drop" the whole dragging out skeletons?

DV not the same thing either as I said no-one's perfect but HM Forces do not have the same disregard for civvies that US forces clearly do.

You're clearly down on the SAS and deliberately trying to discredit this guys' view - he's seen more combat than me or you and has been brave enough to speak out.

Bloody Sunday?? Are you sure you're ex-forces?? That's been the subject of numerous inquiries and PIRA's role in provoking the response is well-documented.

Challenger blue on blue was in a sandstorm and you know it.

You'll notice I didn't mention any stray bombs from either side, as I say mistakes do happen but deliberate disregard for allies' and civilians' safety is proved by the evidence.

Originally posted by Strangerous
DV not the same thing either as I said no-one's perfect but HM Forces do not have the same disregard for civvies that US forces clearly do.

Not the same thing? We dropped a thousand pound bomb in the centre of baghdad dont try and say thats "not the same thing" thats bloody double standards and YOU know it.

You're clearly down on the SAS and deliberately trying to discredit this guys' view - he's seen more combat than me or you and has been brave enough to speak out.

I respect the SAS because I know I wouldnt get in them, I dont have what it takes to be in ethier the SAS or the SBS but I do know when someone is trying to publish himself.

Ever read "the real bravo two zero"? An account by an ex SAS majour who followed both books but found some quite shocking things.
If he's brave enough to speak about it why didnt he try to make a diffrence?

Bloody Sunday?? Are you sure you're ex-forces?? That's been the subject of numerous inquiries and PIRA's role in provoking the response is well-documented.

No I am not and no matter how many inquiries you do its still wrong.
You advocate americans using marines on civilais yet using the paratroopers against demonstrators is wrong...?

Challenger blue on blue was in a sandstorm and you know it.

So?
What makes this ANY diffrent than them attacking an armoured convoy?

You'll notice I didn't mention any stray bombs from either side, as I say mistakes do happen but deliberate disregard for allies' and civilians' safety is proved by the evidence.

Yet you fail to comment on falklands friendly fire incident.

Don't worry devilwasp, I wasn't trying to antagonize you or any other British citizen, however I wanted to point out that nobody is perfect as Stranger has mentioned.

Originally posted by Lanton
I don't think that the views of a few disollusioned soldiers exactly qualifies as a 'fatal divide at the heart of the Coalition'. Every volunteer army has it's deserters and conscientious objectors, but at the end of the day, these people (a minority) choose to take up this line of work and take the pay that comes with it; it's a bit rich, if you ask me, that just because they one day find themselves in a shooting war that they cry about it and ask to go home.

Can I take it from the above post, that you are making this statement whilst safe at home? Have you ever donned the uniform of your country and fired a shot in anger?

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
You're obviously VERY ignorant of what type of branch the SAS is.
Read something on the SAS and then come back. Snotty

Chris ryan?
Andy McNab?
Those two didnt set a good picture for the regiment now did they?
Nor am I inclined to think that they are in anyway looked on as "heros" at hereford.

No my friend, they did not! But at least Chris Ryan has used his real name whilst Richard Mitchells has to hide behind Andy McNab!

That guy has done more harm to 22 Special Air Service alone than anyone else in it's short history - and, I include the incident when Sir Ranulph Feinnes blew up a BBC TV crew. Not exactly the right image.

Posted by Lanton

"I don't think that the views of a few disillusioned soldiers exactly qualifies as a 'fatal divide at the heart of the Coalition'."

Such "opinions" are products of the manufactured individualism. Law is a matter of fact, not opinion.

Branding ANY professional "disillusioned" for reporting illegal acts is a manifestation of criminal mentality. Such branding is regularly used in the court of law by defense against "whistle blowers".

By kozmo

"They didn't cite one example of "illegal" activities by the Americans. In fact, they continued to quote the word "illegal" as if it had some other meaning other than illegal."

Unlike in our media, in the actual "outside" world, news agencies daily report accurate accounts of events in Iraq, so the rest of the world is more then aware of daily "illegal acts" in Iraq, therefore the focus of the piece is on Ben Griffin, and not on a mile long list of mildly put, "illegal activities".

kozmo again, our dear blind activist for the principle of "ignorance is bliss"

"Oh, Come on! "Most probably" tortured. You mean, he has no idea but is simply speculating something. Again, no proof whatsoever."

How in the world the whole giant media frenzy over Iraqi prisoner abuse and torture by US personnel managed to escape your contuses? Is it for the lack their of, or just bad memory?

yet again, give it up for kozmo,

"I'd suspect that there would be a good bit more news on the topic. Simple logic dictates that I be skeptical of this report. "

bring your attention to the following formulation - "I'd suspect" and "simple logic dictates",

kozmo is obviously basing his logic suspicion, description of which is;

suspicion - The act of suspecting something, especially something wrong, on little evidence or without proof.

So in turn, by the true definition of logic as valid reasoning, kozmo doupts (suspects) him self, and not the material presented in the piece, but hey, people used to argue that the earth is flat because they "suspected" crap.


ultra_phoenix,

"He's just lying and said that just to have the media focus on him and help him VS his hierarchy who's not, I bet 1 million $, very pleased with him."

Please share with all of us how you've achieved such in depth perception and understanding of human psyche? Is there a crystal ball in the picture or you just meditate on it? If not you have got to have years of professional experience in the critical field where life and death decisions are made every moment? Should I go on or you get the message?

I'm just going one by one here,

Lanton, quit it.

OK I'm not even going to read the rest, it's all the same and comes down to the same thing. I'm not a violent person, but had encounters with violence, and the patterns are again all the same.

Some people are genetically predisposed to violence, some are sociopaths or simply impoverished, but in our society most are simply captivated by the spectacle. Such violence spectators get a dopamine rush from witnessing acts violence as a result of a subconscious need for revenge and justification against the system they are forced to love, and gradually drift to sadomasochism as a final form of escape.

One time I was engaged in a intellectual conversation with international group of professionals, aka my friends. It took place late at night on the patio of my friends Italian restaurant, which was obviously closed. Three man approached from the street and asked to join the conversation, which among other things was about geopolitics and war. One of the man was of extremely blunt opinions and refused to behave him self respectfully towards some of our international guests. After repeated pleas for civility in behaviour and conversation, I have explained to him, that if he and his friends would not leave immediately, I would beat the living crap out of all of them for bringing such utter nationalistic vomit to our circle, and refusing to learn a god damn thing even after we extended our hospitality and attention. Naturally, being full of empty patriotic bravado, he and his friends made a mistake of refusing to accept the reality of their situation, which ended up in me knocking two of his maulers, which he still managed to swallow even after I attended to him after he fell.

The moral of this story, just like in the scene in "Falling Down" between the Michel Douglas, his bat and a three gang bangers, is that people of closed minds, whom find war and violence captivating while themselves never having experienced it, learn to "unlove" real quick it as soon as their ass is properly kicked. The only other method of extracting reason from the masses is education, and for it to work there has to be law, and respect their of, while all of which we have traded for consumerism.

The war in Iraq is simply another conflict instigated by the corporate interest and Zionist agenda of dominating the Middle East, anybody who states other wise is either a plundering profiteer, or blinded by misguided, propagandized patriotism.



For me this part says it all,

"He added that he now believed that the Prime Minister and the Government had repeatedly "lied" over the wars conduct.

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said. He expected to be labelled a coward and to face a court martial and imprisonment after making what "the most difficult decision of my life" last March.

Instead, he was discharged with a testimonial describing him as a "balanced, honest, loyal and determined individual who possesses the strength of character to have the courage of his convictions".

Greetings to all that see this for what it is, and it's great to know that you're all there. Keep on reasoning, it's what makes us human.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Most Arabs, even those loosely allied to the so-called 'coalition', regard the allied forces as 'Crusaders' and therefor 'infedels'.

There are many within the ranks of the Iraqi 'freedom=fighters' who want nothing more, than to repell the invading crusaders.

They should not be labelled as terrorists because they are doing nothing wrong under international law. They are guerilla fighters and they are freedom fighters, who have taken up arms to rid their country of foreign troops. Much the same as any of us would do if our country was invaded.

Both the US and UK should immediately withdraw it's forces and allow the indiginous people to sort out the mess we made of their country.

As to this SAS soldier's views, you must realise that he cost over £1M to train, has served in many of the world's combat zones and before the SAS, he was a Para. Not exactly the stuff that deserters are made of, but I could be wrong.

What I am not wrong about however, is the slavish loyalty you Americans show to a corrupt and power crazy President.

I do not say this out of rancour for I have many American friends, one of which is an ex Viet Nam Green Beret veteren. Even he agrees this is a futile exercise in expansionism and lust for oil.

What a pity that most decent Americans cannot see what their President has done to their once proud country.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
why does he not given a single example of these "dozens of illegal acts" Thats a pretty vague statement and hes gotten the press coverage to say extacly what this illegal acts are.

This is exactly what I'm thinking. I think the guy has lost his nerve and all morals. The SAS is certainly no place for "Ben Griffins".

This guy just needs to go ahead and get lost along with the others who find this was illegal.

When I say get lost, er, uh, I mean get "missing" if you know what I mean(heh,heh)!

Originally posted by Intelearthling

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
why does he not given a single example of these "dozens of illegal acts" Thats a pretty vague statement and hes gotten the press coverage to say extacly what this illegal acts are.

This is exactly what I'm thinking. I think the guy has lost his nerve and all morals. The SAS is certainly no place for "Ben Griffins".

This guy just needs to go ahead and get lost along with the others who find this was illegal.

When I say get lost, er, uh, I mean get "missing" if you know what I mean(heh,heh)!

So are you another Yank, sat safely at home, spouting all this crap?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Col Collins also held the majority of americans in good spirits, he had a bad incident with a unit of US marines but if you read on it the 2IC of the american unit was actually helpful only the CO was the arse. Also about this SAS soldier speaking out , if the situation is so bad then why is he not doing anything to stop it? He is within his rights to as a military soldier and ambassador of her majesty.

Have had the pleasure of meeting Col. Collins a number times in the past. Bit of a big-timer, loved the limelight, regarded as either a complete @rsehole or a hero, depending on your view point. Didn't like him much to be honest, but that's just me.

Back on track, I reckon this SAS bloke has had a hard time in the regiment, had some personality clashes or something like that, and decided to leave using this as an excuse. People do join special forces units and leave within a couple of years of getting in - strange but true (just look at Duncan Falconer). Often this is due to the rather self-contained ethos of such units. This means that you either fit in or don't. Obviously, this bloke didn't, so he decided to cash in on it.

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Have had the pleasure of meeting Col. Collins a number times in the past. Bit of a big-timer, loved the limelight, regarded as either a complete @rsehole or a hero, depending on your view point. Didn't like him much to be honest, but that's just me.

You did? Wow, well mate we all have our opinions.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Have had the pleasure of meeting Col. Collins a number times in the past. Bit of a big-timer, loved the limelight, regarded as either a complete @rsehole or a hero, depending on your view point. Didn't like him much to be honest, but that's just me.

You did? Wow, well mate we all have our opinions.

Yea, he was my CO for a while. Most of his juniors thought he was a bit of a show off, looking for the big story. But some actually thought he was the greatest thing since sliced baguette. I'm sure he was a nice enough bloke, I just didn't like his attitude. Not that the opinion of some NCO is going to change a lot!!!

OK, this relates to the topic?

Originally posted by intrepid
OK, this relates to the topic?

I was replying to an earlier post. If you look at the post previous to my last, you will see that it makes a direct reference to the topic in hand. Cool your jets mate.

Intelearthling,

It's sure a beautifully dove in flight you got there, and "If war is the path to peace, then we must have war!". How very "profound".

Following such logic, It's natural to conclude, that if a baseball bat put to the heads of stupid people is the only way to get them thinking, you would defenetly be one of the first ones in line to receive such enlightenment.

Originally posted by iskander
Following such logic, It's natural to conclude, that if a baseball bat put to the heads of stupid people is the only way to get them thinking, you would defenetly be one of the first ones in line to receive such enlightenment.

You are also adding yourself to that line of those to receive such enlightenment, iskander?

Amazing to me that people can say such thing, yet not look at themselves in the mirror and see that what or whom they crticize, they themselves resemble.





seekerof

Seekerof,

I really thank you for giving me the laugh of the day with that one, it's just precious.

"You are also adding yourself to that line of those to receive such enlightenment, iskander? "

Is it a question or a statement? Never mind, I had enough laughs for today.

You must have forgotten our previous encounter on such grounds, and its result. I hoped you've remembered not to attempt and venture out upon these obviously "strange" to you waters, but I see your memory fails you yet again.

Back to the original post. Again we see a clear pattern of posts from the same members which in this case engage in mud slinging and character assassination of a distinguished professional, in this case a member of an elite SAS Regiment, because he chose to uphold his professional duty, legal grounds, and personal morals.

What does it make the people that hold such opinions? No answer needed, we all know.

Being SAS, it took lots of guts for the man to state his opinions so publicly. Comparing the comportment of U.S. troops with that of SAS professional soldiers has got to be an exercise in frustration. The SAS guys are gonna win out just about every time, but that doesn't make the actions of U.S. troops illegal and it doesn't mean they view Iraqi's as "sub-human." All it means is the troops think the Iraqi's are clever enough to think up new ways to kill them and they don't trust them. It's about the only attitude they can be expected to develop if they intend to make it back home alive and in one piece.

I'm 100% sure illegal acts are being committed by U.S. troops and by all other troops actually in combat. In a firefight you generally shoot first and ask questions later because you just don't have the luxury of time & safety & detached, objective thinking at your disposal to do anything else. Once in a great while you look up afterwards and say "aw s....! sorry about that." You say that because you realize you just screwed up and you regret it, but you'de do it again if it ever happened again and you know it.

I respect the right of the ex SAS guy to speak up about what he thinks, but I don't have to think the same thing--and I don't. He has every right to say what he wants and many people will listen because of his background, but don't make the mistake of thinking what he says is gospel; he is an opinionated human being just like the rest of us.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Astronomer68]