Origin of the fish symbol in monotheism.

I never knew this about that fish symbol christian's display sometimes. Guess it's just another thing they stole from the pagan's.

www.atheists.org...

But contemporary Jesus worshippers might be surprised, even outraged, to learn that one of their preeminent religious symbols antedated the Christian religion, and has its roots in pagan fertility awareness and sexuality. Barbara G. Walker writes in "The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects," that the acronym pertaining to Jesus Christ was a "rationale invented after the fact... Christians simply copied this pagan symbol along with many others." Ichthys was the offspring son of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia or Delphine. The word also meant "womb" and "dolphin" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids. The fish also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus (who has a fish amulet covering her genital region), as well as the tale of the fish that swallowed the penis of Osiris, and was also considered a symbol of the vulva of Isis.

Biblical Contradictions

This is from the same website. Figured I'd post it in this thread rather then open a new one.

www.atheists.org...

ON THE PERMANENCY OF THE EARTH
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10

Biblical Quote's from Jesus

I guess I'm just gunna compact all these into the same thread ... They're all from the same website anyways.

www.atheists.org...

THE TRUTHFUL WITNESS
"If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (John 5:31)

"I [Jesus] am one that bear witness of myself..." (John 8:18)

According to these scriptures, Jesus was a false witness.

...

THE PRINCE OF PEACE
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I [Jesus] tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three." (Luke 12:51-2)

"Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

"...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)

"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

And to think that these ravings are supposed to be the sayings of one some call the prince of peace.

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Produkt]

This one here is on the same page as the jesus quote's. Just wanted to post it speratley in it's own post.

WHAT IS THE BIBLE?
The Bible is one of twenty-seven books for which divine origin is claimed. Christians deny the divinity of all Bibles but their own. We deny the divinity of only one more than they do.

Out of 250 Jewish-Christian writings, sixty-six have arbitrarily been declared canonical by Protestants. The rejected books are of the same general character as those now published together as the "Holy Bible." Circumstances rather than merit determined selection.

For 150 years the Christian Bible consisted of the sacred books of the Jews. The New Testament was not formed until the latter half of the second century when Irenaeus selected twenty books from among forty or more gospels, nearly as many acts of apostles, a score of revelations and a hundred epistles. Why were these particular books chosen? Why four gospels instead of one? Irenaeus: "There are four quarters of the earth in which we live and four universal winds." The gospels were unknown to Peter, Paul, and the early church fathers. They were forged later.

The Bible did not assume anything like its present form until the fourth century. The Roman Catholic, Greek Catholic, and Protestant canons were not adopted until modern times. The Bible was recognized as a collection of independent writings. The Council of Trent (1563) determined the Roman Catholic, Protestants denounce the Catholic Bible as a "popish imposture." The Greek Catholics at the Council of Jerusalem in 1672 finally accepted the book of Revelation. Their Bible contains several books not in the Roman canon. The Westminster Assembly in 1647 approved the list of sixty-six books composing the authorized version, the one most used in America. Our Bible, therefore, is less than 300 years old.

This one is good. All christian's here should read this in full. Remember guy's, this is YOUR god's words. Are you really going to question YOUR god?

www.atheists.org...

CULINARY DEPARTMENT

"...Hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" --Isaiah 36:12; also in II Kings 18:27.

The lord commanded: "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight." --Ezekiel 4:12.

"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." --Levitcus 26:29.

"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons, and of thy daughters which the LORD thy god hath given thee..." --Deuteronomy 28:53.

"So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son." --2 Kings 6:29.

MMMMMM *drools* feces and human flesh.

So was this thread about the Ichthys Symbol, or just general Christian Bashing? Fine so you don’t believe in Christianity, that is your choice, then so be it, but spare us the misinterpreted quotes from the bible.

Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
Ecc 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
Ecc 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever.

The word here that is translated as forever, “O-Lawm”, can also be used to mean lasting a long time, but not necessarily eternal.

As to the quotes about Christ they are being used and taken out of context to the message he was saying. You have to take into account the context as well as what is being said, to do otherwise is to simply twist his words for your own purpose. That can be done with something said by anyone

Rename the thread to something appropriate like:

The I Hate Christians Thread!!
Christian Bashing is us!!
The Christian Haters Club!

I am sure you can think up something clever…



[edit on 2/28/2006 by defcon5]

Yea umm... So what did god really mean here in this verse?

The lord commanded: "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight." --Ezekiel 4:12.

I guess I'm just taking that command out of context right?

What other command's from god and jesus are we non-believer's taking out of context?

Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

I guess he didn't REALLY mean to say he wasn't bringing peace only to have those of christian faith say that he was. Yes, us non-believer's took that totally out of context.

Honestly though, the fish symbolism is a stolen pagan symbol, just as is alot of other 'christian' thing's. This isn't really a christian bashing thread, just posting quote's from your own bible and the history of your fish symbol.

2Ki 18:27 But the Rab-shakeh said to them, Is it to your master or to you that my master has sent me to say these words? has he not sent me to the men seated on the wall? for they are the people who will be short of food with you when the town is shut in.

Here is a different translation of 2Kings 18. It is obvious to anyone with even a mild amount of intelligence that this is talking about a food shortage for the men stationed in a walled city during a siege. No one is being told nor commanded to do these things it is simply a colorful way of saying that they are about to starve to death.

Eze 4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.
Eze 4:13 And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.
Eze 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.
Eze 4:15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

Looks like he was yelling at them for defiling themselves, and this was to be a punishment, not that he commanded them to do it. He commanded them not to defile themselves.
PS.. in countries were there is a shortage of wood for use to bake with dung is still used as a fire source...
They are talking about cooking over it, not eating it, DUH!

Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
Lev 26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savor of your sweet odors.
Lev 26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.

Again this is a warning of punishment for going contrary to the will of God…

Deu 28:52 Your towns will be shut in by his armies, till your high walls, in which you put your faith, have come down: his armies will be round your towns, through all your land which the Lord your God has given you.
Deu 28:53 And your food will be the fruit of your body, the flesh of the sons and daughters which the Lord your God has given you; because of your bitter need and the cruel grip of your haters.

Again talking about an army starving while being in a siege war… Again not a command of God for anyone to do these things.

2Ki 6:24 And it came to pass after this, that Ben-hadad king of Syria gathered all his host, and went up, and besieged Samaria.
2Ki 6:25 And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver.
2Ki 6:26 And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king.
2Ki 6:27 And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress?
2Ki 6:28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.
2Ki 6:29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.
2Ki 6:30 And it came to pass, when the king heard the words of the woman, that he rent his clothes; and he passed by upon the wall, and the people looked, and, behold, he had sackcloth within upon his flesh.

This is a story about a woman that was tricked into giving up her son to some else that ate them. Again during starvation, during a famine, and a siege. This is again showing the type of things that the enemies of God do, not things that God does. So in translation as a Christian I should be weary of those that write the type of site that you took this from, as they are immoral and unscrupulous enough to be these two women.

So I guess the point is that those at Athiest.org are really the type of people that have to worry about being made to eat their own Children, Feces, and Urine. Those that follow God never cross that bridge, it would never enter their minds even if starving to death.



[edit on 2/28/2006 by defcon5]

Ooooh ... so god just has them do all that as punishment? Wow ... that's just the most perverse punishment I can ever immagine. Perhap's he shoulda just smited them instead, or heck the whole planet for that matter!

The whole umm, starvation issue ... Why not make manna appear from the sky like he had done in exodus? Instead he has them eat each other? Seem's like god didn't really give a damn there.

So I guess the point is that those at Athiest.org are really the type of people that have to worry about being made to eat their own Children, Feces, and Urine.

Nah, we don't worry about that, we just point out the horror's of your all powerfull and loving god.

The truth is that those were the enemies of God, those that refuse him, rebuke him, reject him, and refuse to follow in his paths. The type of people that followed the exact path you sound like you’re heading down at the moment. As far as God is concerned he created us in love in a prefect environment to never know starvation, pain, or death. It is because of mans inability to follow the simplest of his commands and remain under Gods grace that the human condition and all the pain suffering and death that go along with it even exists. God does not cause man to be in these situations, men living in sin, and amongst other sinful men is what causes it. Luckily for those that accept it, the offer has been granted man to reclaim his lost grace, through Christ. If not, then these are EXACTLY the type of things that will happen to you, which is the point of them being used in the Bible as a warning…

Originally posted by Produkt
Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

He is talking about two different things though. Yes, he came to bring peace to man by granting each personal man a chance at salvation. He however is also saying that he came to cause strife to the current system of mankind, to shake things up so to speak. To smack down some of the hypercritical leaders of Judaism that were not really doing the will of God, but just trying to look like they were better then the next guy.

Here is another translation, he does not mean a sword as in the actual item of a sword:

CVE:

Don't think that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came to bring trouble, not peace.

The type of people that followed the exact path you sound like you’re heading down at the moment.

Are you kidding? Damn, I'm more moral then most christian's I've met both on and offline.

As far as God is concerned he created us in love in a prefect environment to never know starvation, pain, or death. It is because of mans inability to follow the simplest of his commands and remain under Gods grace that the human condition and all the pain suffering and death that go along with it even exists. God does not cause man to be in these situations, men living in sin, and amongst other sinful men is what causes it.

That's total BS and you know it. Man did not create evil, god did. God being all knowing KNEW before hand the consequence's of creating satan. God KNEW beforehand that by creating and ALLOWING evil to influence ignorant man, man through his own IGNORANCE of right and wrong would succumb to satans words. Now either god isn't all knowing and didn't know all these obvious thing's that even us lowly not all knowing people can figure out, or he is all knowing and INTENTIONALLY did what he did KNOWING the consequence's thus negating any moral concept of god. I don't believe even you are that stupid to assume your all knowing god didn't PURPOSEFULLY create the problem's HE CREATED.

Luckily for those that accept it, the offer has been granted man to reclaim his lost grace, through Christ. If not, then these are EXACTLY the type of things that will happen to you, which is the point of them being used in the Bible as a warning…

I'm sorry, but I don't need a bible to lead a decent moral life unlike those of faith. I don't need to be limited by fear that my action's will send me to a burning pit of fire for eternity just so I can be a good boy. I'm not walking down any 'evil' path to hell simply because I'm not as gullible as some to believe in an IMPERFECT diety.

Originally posted by Produkt
I'm sorry, but I don't need a bible to lead a decent moral life unlike those of faith. I don't need to be limited by fear that my action's will send me to a burning pit of fire for eternity just so I can be a good boy. I'm not walking down any 'evil' path to hell simply because I'm not as gullible as some to believe in an IMPERFECT diety.

Well here is the first problem with your perspective on the word of God. You consider the word of God to be LAW, a ruler to judge or be judged by. The proper perspective is that the Bible is entirely GRACE, even the parts of it that are law are there knowing full well that no man may live up to them and must come to God for Grace… The Bible in its very existence is grace and proof of Gods grace.

God is the ultimate Holy, Righteous being, he cannot allow someone that has committed even the smallest of sins into his presence or he defiles himself as mentioned above (Eze 4:14). To pay for even a single sin to an eternally prefect God is a debt beyond which any man can ever pay, so we have to have those sins paid for by God himself, though his sons death on the cross after leading a sinless life for us since we cannot. Now all you have to do to receive grace is ask for it and accept it. There is no fear of going to eternal fire for those that are Christians, so there is no limiting of our actions, there is a freeing of our spirit, and a lightening of the load.

I would have to say that you sound far more afraid then I do, for certain. You see, the gullibility that you think that Christians have is actually that you feel you will have to give up on worshiping the only thing that you consider to be god; yourself. You think that we are gullible and lead lesser lives since we try and follow in Gods path, nothing could in fact be further from the truth. There are less limits on me as I have no fear of death since I know were I am heading. I see nothing but fear in this attack you have commenced on Christianity today, if you did not fear it why are you out here attacking it?

Hatred is born from fear after all.

Originally posted by Produkt
That's total BS and you know it. Man did not create evil, god did. God being all knowing KNEW before hand the consequence's of creating satan. God KNEW beforehand that by creating and ALLOWING evil to influence ignorant man, man through his own IGNORANCE of right and wrong would succumb to satans words. Now either god isn't all knowing and didn't know all these obvious thing's that even us lowly not all knowing people can figure out, or he is all knowing and INTENTIONALLY did what he did KNOWING the consequence's thus negating any moral concept of god. I don't believe even you are that stupid to assume your all knowing god didn't PURPOSEFULLY create the problem's HE CREATED.

Your second problem is that you think that man can in his insignificant mind, when compared to Gods, even begin to understand God or judge him by our concept of morality. Ok, so let’s start off with the simple basics here.

If God created us, is it wrong for God to destroy us? If I write this document is it a sin for me to delete it, same concept and the answer is no. So is it wrong for God to punish or even destroy a man, again, no. The Bible does state though that God will never tempt us.

What is Sin/Evil? Basically falling short of the Holiness of God is Sin/Evil, it is falling out of the grace of God. Man was fine as long as he obeyed Gods commands, once he messed up, game over. The same thing holds true for Satan, as long as he followed the rules everything was fine, the second he messed up, he lived outside the grace of God. So it was not wrong for God to create either of these beings as nether was created inherently evil.

Evil was not created, evil exists simply because God exists, it is anything that is not of God.

Why did God create Satan, knowing he would cause the fall of man? Well to be honest the Bible does not tell us, some pseudopigraphial documents might give a hint or two, but their authenticity is questionable hence the fact that they were not included in the Bible (Oh, by the way, your statement about how this or that man decided what went in the Bible is totally fictitious, there were entire councils who decided that, and it was much debated as to what went in and what stayed out). I have a personal theory on it, but I cannot prove it one way or the other, so I will just put it like this:

If you love something set it free, if it comes back to you, then it’s yours…

Jer 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

[edit on 2/28/2006 by defcon5]

defcon5, I feel the frustration...

Produkt, you are only taking snippets from the Bible and presenting it in a fashion that suits your own agenda. Had you taken as much time as you spent in providing your arguement, albeit a very weak case indeed, into actually reading and studying the Bible, perhaps you would be discussing it's words in a different light.

I too used to shrug and grimmace at the thought of it being 'truth'... or thinking that it held any substance but now I look back and think about how wrong I really was.

I hope that you can one day look at the Bible with someone who understands it so that perhaps you can see it a bit more clearly.

[edit on 28-2-2006 by fattyp]

The Greek word for fish is ICTHUS, which in Greek is spelled "ΙΧΘΥΣ."

It was used as an acronym for "Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter."

When you translate it literally, omitting any noun declensions you get:

"Jesus Anointed God Son Savior"

If you translate it correctly following all the grammatical rules you get:

"Jesus the Anointed the Son of God the Savior."

Why do you cross your fingers when you lie? You are making the Jesus-Fish symbol, so when the Roman Centurions ask you if you are a Christian, you can make the Jesus-Fish behind your back to negate your lie when you say no.

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama]

lol... I'd love to know the origin of crossing ones fingers.

anyone?

You consider the word of God to be LAW

It's not so much that I take that perspective, but god himself in the bible say's it is so! He make's many fine example's of commandment's for mankind to follow and the punishment's that are to be done if one does not follow his commands.

God is the ultimate Holy, Righteous being,

Which god? You believe in the god you believe in thanks to the culture you live in. If you were raised in another country, you'd be believing in another god as that's what you would've been taught. So, which god?

Now all you have to do to receive grace is ask for it and accept it.

Sounds like a scapegoat or a get out of hell free card. So your saying it doesn't matter if I were once a homicidal maniac, just so long as I repent and ask for god's grace I won't have to pay for those sin's because our good man jesus did it for us? Is that the view the pedopriest's take? It's ok so long as they ask for god's grace after each alter boy session?

There is no fear of going to eternal fire for those that are Christians, so there is no limiting of our actions, there is a freeing of our spirit, and a lightening of the load.

Oh, so it's only for christians? So ... only christian's can commit sin without fear because as long as they ask the almighty for grace, they won't have to pay for those sins because god had his son pay for them already ... ok... lol

I would have to say that you sound far more afraid then I do, for certain.

Not afraid at all. You can't be afraid of a non existant diety who upholds imperfection on every level imaginable.

You see, the gullibility that you think that Christians have is actually that you feel you will have to give up on worshiping the only thing that you consider to be god; yourself.

I don't view myself as a god at all, let alone worship myself. Or any other human being.

You think that we are gullible and lead lesser lives since we try and follow in Gods path, nothing could in fact be further from the truth. There are less limits on me as I have no fear of death since I know were I am heading. I see nothing but fear in this attack you have commenced on Christianity today, if you did not fear it why are you out here attacking it?

If christians did not fear what science is continually discovering, then why would they attack it? You are limiting yourself. Your limiting your ability to learn. Many of the christians, even on this site, scoff at scientific discoveries. There's even one guy in here who goes out of his way to post these thing's and then just say it's garbage without offering anything else lol. And the attack on christianity has been going on since before it was even an official religion. Jewish people started it... which is odd seing as how jesus was a jew at the time.

Hatred is born from fear after all.

Yes, I've learned that all too well from the history of christianity. All the violence it has spread since it's birth, using the name of god to initiate holy wars or burn and drown innocent women claiming they were witch's.

Your second problem is that you think that man can in his insignificant mind, when compared to Gods, even begin to understand God or judge him by our concept of morality. Ok, so let’s start off with the simple basics here.

Our concept of morality is from god isn't it? Well ... atleast for religous people. My concept of morality stems from plain simple common sense. I don't need a book to tell me what's right and what's wrong. Your god gave you moral lesson's, commandments etc in the bible. You guy's follow ... well some of it atleast. The rest you can't do because human law dictate's that it's wrong.

If God created us, is it wrong for God to destroy us? If I write this document is it a sin for me to delete it, same concept and the answer is no. So is it wrong for God to punish or even destroy a man, again, no. The Bible does state though that God will never tempt us.

Bad analogy. Try this one on for size. If I bring a child into this world, is it wrong for me to destroy it or punish it in the same manerism that god does to his creation?

In the very first chapter of the bible, god already tempted abraham, so yes, god does tempt.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

What is Sin/Evil? Basically falling short of the Holiness of God is Sin/Evil, it is falling out of the grace of God. Man was fine as long as he obeyed Gods commands, once he messed up, game over. The same thing holds true for Satan, as long as he followed the rules everything was fine, the second he messed up, he lived outside the grace of God. So it was not wrong for God to create either of these beings as nether was created inherently evil.

Evil was not created, evil exists simply because God exists, it is anything that is not of God.

If nothing existed BUT god to begin with, then how did evil exist if nothing but god existed? God knowingly created imperfect being's that he knew would commit sin which he clearly state's he does not like. So by what logic was god applying when he created something so imperfect to do exactly what he didn't like?

Why did God create Satan then? Well to be honest the Bible does not tell us, some pseudopigraphial documents might give a hint or two, but their authenticity is questionable hence the fact that they were not included in the Bible (Oh, by the way, your statement about how this or that man decided what went in the Bible is totally fictitious, there were entire councils who decided that, and it was much debated as to what went in and what stayed out). I have a personal theory on it, but I cannot prove it one way or the other, so I will just put it like this:

I never stated that there was one man in particular that decided what was to be god's official word. Honestly, why would there need to be any debate if the bible is supposedly from god or inspired from god? Shouldn't ALL of god's holy inspired books be including no matter how idiotic they may sound in todays modern world? Or how contadictive they are to one another? They are after all, inspired by the good man himself are they not?

www.vexen.co.uk...

Produkt -

Here's a page that speaks to most of your questions and concerns. That is of course if you're interested in seeing the other side of the coin... we could play dueling links with this stuff all day, but eventually you're gonna have to read the Bible for yourself... ie context is very important.

Answers for Atheists and Agnostics... Yes i'm aware of the rebuttals and like i said we can do this all day; but to present faith in God or faith that the Bible is His word as irrational or naive is disingenous imho.

Of course if we could "prove" it it wouldn't take faith to believe... it's a pickle. Took me a long time and i dont discount your concerns nor do i think you're stupid. I believe if you showed those of faith that same respect you'd have more "luck."

Oh and...

You have voted defcon5 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Well done... i wish i had your patience. It's not necessarily easy to get involved in one of these "discussions"... for me atleast. Thought you handled it well - i should be taking notes.

Regards and God Bless,
-Rren

Rren,

Interesting site. I have read the bible before, and even still refer back to certain verses, even on this site. Your right though, we could do this all day, all week, all month, till the day we die. Only till then would it even be truely proven to either one of us. One of the article's on that site was abit interesting, but using the logic of that christian student, could we then say hate doesn't exist, it is just the absense of love? Just one example. What I don't understand about monotheistic religion's, is how they think their's is the one true and only religion/god. The bible looks as if it's teaching that this is how it's alway's been, when in fact it hasn't always been. Polytheism was worshiped well before judaism ever came about. India and china have been around even longer then that, yet neither practiced monotheism until christian's and other 'faiths' brought it to them. The tribal culture's in africa and the native american's, all have been around for thousand's of year's, yet it wasn't untill those of monotheistic faith that these culture's even had the concept of your god. So how is it that given these fact's that those of monotheistic faith can even assume that they and they alone got it right while the rest are all just oh so wrong despite them being thousands of years older?

Originally posted by Produkt
It's not so much that I take that perspective, but god himself in the bible say's it is so! He make's many fine example's of commandment's for mankind to follow and the punishment's that are to be done if one does not follow his commands.

Not so, the entire book is an act of grace extended to man. God knows that no man can get through the day without breaking at least one of his commands, yet we are to do the best we can to try. It’s in the act of trying to fend off our worldly impulses and do as commanded that we show obedience to God, this is part of being a repentant person that is sorry for the sins that they have committed.

Ok, you tell me then what percentage of the Bible is Grace and what is Law?

Originally posted by Produkt
Which god? You believe in the god you believe in thanks to the culture you live in. If you were raised in another country, you'd be believing in another god as that's what you would've been taught. So, which god?

Well we are talking about Christianity so you guess. As too other religions, well it talks about them in the Bible itself, what does God say about them in there?

There is an amount of predestination that exists in Christianity, so if someone is a person that God knows will have what it takes to stay by his side through hell and high water, then he will ensure that that person finds him, no matter what culture he/she is born too. He will simply manipulate the events around that person to ensure that they come to him.

Right now you seem to have a bone to pick with God, but someday, he may manipulate events to drive you to a point at which you will come to him. You may say no way right now, but look a few posts up I think that FattyP is saying he was once where you are now but has gained a different perspective.

Could God have made you be the perfect Christian right out of the box, yeah he could have, but I feel you did not understand what I said at the end of my last post. Of course you obviously did not take much time to really think about it with any depth anyway considering the speed with which you reposted this book.

The point I was making is that God wants those that will come to him, not someone that is programmed to obey him like a robot, someone that comes of their own free will. The more fire one has to walk through to come to him, the more refined and thus precious they are to him once they are there.

Originally posted by Produkt
Sounds like a scapegoat or a get out of hell free card. So your saying it doesn't matter if I were once a homicidal maniac, just so long as I repent and ask for god's grace I won't have to pay for those sin's because our good man jesus did it for us? Is that the view the pedopriest's take? It's ok so long as they ask for god's grace after each alter boy session?

Well the hard answer on this is both yes and no. It’s yes in that God will forgive even those priests, but they have to truly repent what it is they have done. That does not mean that they just say a prayer and go right back to their previous lifestyle, it also does not mean that they will escape earthly ramifications of their actions.

The absolute best example of this is the Thief on the cross next to Christ. He committed a crime, he paid the earthly cost in accordance with the law for that crime, yet he truly repented and changed his heart. If he had not died, then God would have given him the strength to change his life, since he obviously had true repentance. Since he died, he was forgiven and told that he would be with Christ that day in paradise.

Now last post you were blaming God for all sins and evil, now you want man to pay for their sins since they are responsible for them, so which is it?

Originally posted by Produkt
Oh, so it's only for christians? So ... only christian's can commit sin without fear because as long as they ask the almighty for grace, they won't have to pay for those sins because god had his son pay for them already ... ok... lol

The hard part of this is having a repentant heart. Believe me there are many who consider themselves Christians out there that are truly nothing more then hypocrites. A truly repentant Christian is forgiven of their sins though when they ask for that forgiveness again that does not stop any ramifications which may occur in this world due to their actions.

Originally posted by Produkt
Not afraid at all. You can't be afraid of a non existant diety who upholds imperfection on every level imaginable.

If this attack was not about being afraid, then what was it about, trolling?

Originally posted by Produkt
I don't view myself as a god at all, let alone worship myself. Or any other human being.

When you say that you could not be a Christian because you do not want to limit yourself, or what you can do, that smacks of worldly self-centeredness. That is nothing more then making or worshiping yourself as a god in Gods eyes, you are to have nothing that you love more then you love him. Therefore, by my standards the definition holds up.

Originally posted by Produkt
If christians did not fear what science is continually discovering, then why would they attack it? You are limiting yourself. Your limiting your ability to learn. Many of the christians, even on this site, scoff at scientific discoveries. There's even one guy in here who goes out of his way to post these thing's and then just say it's garbage without offering anything else lol. And the attack on christianity has been going on since before it was even an official religion. Jewish people started it... which is odd seing as how jesus was a jew at the time.

I love science, and I find there are many studies that improve on my faith and do not conflict with what I believe in the slightest. I saw that you have several other Christian Bashing threads out there, most are gong to only upset the hard core fundamentalists. I on the other hand have a bit more of an open mind, though I do believe the infallibility of the Bible, I also understand that there are gaps and some translations that can have more then one meaning within it.

Generally I do not post to those other threads simply because by the time I find them they have gone 700 pages in about an hour. By way of example your thread on the dinosaurs, there is nothing that I can find that says that the world was only ever created once. Here look at this:

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

First thing is that the word here translated as “was” can also mean “became”. The Genesis verse is obviously creation, the Jeremiah verse is talking about after the world’s destruction. There is nothing that says God could not have had things on this earth before the present world came into existence, and wiped the slate clean before making the present word, thus the world or age in which your dinosaurs existed. It’s kind of funny that this theory also jives well with several other ancient civilizations stories of things being here in a previous age or that the world is destroyed every so many thousand years.

Other things like this that I find interesting and supportive of the Bible are the Theory that Noah’s flood was a more localized event caused by and asteroid impact into an ocean, and the roundworm project that relates to the dramatic increase/decrease in life spans, just to name two more.

Originally posted by Produkt
Yes, I've learned that all too well from the history of christianity. All the violence it has spread since it's birth, using the name of god to initiate holy wars or burn and drown innocent women claiming they were witch's.

There have been a few radical protestant groups that have done such things in the name of God, but the majority of these accusations go back to the Roman Catholic Church and the Office of the Pope. From my studies in prophecy I have to relate them to the fourth beast in Daniel, the little horn, the first beast in revelations, and the whore of Babylon. Their massacres against not only humanity but also against other Christians is well documented in the Bible as being wrong and Anti-Christ, IMHO. Do a search on Historicism and you will se what I am talking about.

Originally posted by Produkt
Our concept of morality is from god isn't it? Well ... atleast for religous people. My concept of morality stems from plain simple common sense. I don't need a book to tell me what's right and what's wrong. Your god gave you moral lesson's, commandments etc in the bible. You guy's follow ... well some of it atleast. The rest you can't do because human law dictate's that it's wrong.

It may stem from God but we do not have Gods intelligence nor can we see things from his perspective. I find that one of the biggest issues with human perspective is that things which we consider to be a big deal, God considers trivial, and some things that we consider trivial God considers a big deal, for instance. You have to try and look at things from Gods perspective, though that is almost imposable to do.

Originally posted by Produkt
Bad analogy. Try this one on for size. If I bring a child into this world, is it wrong for me to destroy it or punish it in the same manerism that god does to his creation?

In the very first chapter of the bible, god already tempted abraham, so yes, god does tempt.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

Yes it would be wrong for you to kill that child, because you did not create it, God did. You are comparing apples and oranges since you do not have the power to create anything other then the physical shell of the child. You do not create it’s life spark, provide its soul, nor your anatomy that allowed you to perform the act. A computer document is a better analogy since it is something that you can create more or less totally on your own. Well at least beyond God giving you the ability to create it to begin with…


God TESTED Abraham, not tempted. God had no intention of having him go through with the act of sacrificing his son, he simply wanted to see if Abrahams love for God was greater then his love for his son, so he let him go right up to the brink then pulled him back. Now again from a human perspective that might sound a little on the bad side, but remember we are not to love anything more then we love God and the includes other people, or you are making them into a god. To Tempt someone you have to lore them into doing something sinful with the intent that they are going to follow through and if they do you would let them do it. God even allowed Satan to test job to such a point that his entire family died.

Originally posted by Produkt
If nothing existed BUT god to begin with, then how did evil exist if nothing but god existed? God knowingly created imperfect being's that he knew would commit sin which he clearly state's he does not like. So by what logic was god applying when he created something so imperfect to do exactly what he didn't like?

You are thinking of evil like it’s a thing, it not, it’s the lack of a thing. It is a lack of God. Again that which is not of God is evil.

As to the Satan question. There is a reason I was being a bit ambiguous, mainly because some of what I have read on the subject came from some of those works left out of the bible, and they therefore lack the same level of veracity. Though they seem to expand upon what is written in the earlier books and further explain some things. There are even some parts of those books that are quoted in the bible itself. So without my having to rehash the books, let’s just take a walk of logic for a second.

God could have easily made us with no free will, so we would follow whatever he said, right? Yet he chose to not do that. So for some reason it is important to God that we have free will.

God could easily let his presence be know to every person on the earth and that he is God, yet he doesn’t, why? For some reason it is important that we take a leap of faith against everything here that is fleshly and worldly to follow him based solely on faith.

Anyone that walked through the purifying fire would be precious to God.

Did God extend the same offer of salvation through grace to the third of the angels that rebelled with Satan? No, there is none mentioned in the Bible, and it is specifically mentioned in the Pseudopigrapha that this is one reason that the fallen angels hate us so much.

Are we higher or lower then the Angels in the hierarchy of things? Higher, we are made in the image of God himself.

What was it that made Satan fall? Pride, he wanted to be on the same level or higher then God.

What was it that made man fall? Wishing to learn the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Law), to be as God.

Based just on that I can think of at least two reasons why God would still create Satan, even though he knew what he would do.