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Originally posted by apc
... Read the opening question. I'll sum it up for you: Did the Russians secretly go to Mars? Answer: They Couldn't Afford To.
Originally posted by Wirral Bagpuss
If they had been successful they would have made sure the world knew about it.
Think of the propaganda value. Red Party On Red Planet !! If we do go to Mars it will be an international jaunt and not by one country alone !!
You do not take over the world by bragging about every advantage you gain.
Originally posted by apc
It would still be impossible to hide the mission.
Russia has superior experience being in space. The US has superior experience getting to space.
This may not be the case had the Buran succeeded, but because of... you guessed it... lack of funding... it didn't.
Whenever a Mars mission becomes a reality I do not doubt it will be a coop between Russia and the US. Russia hands down is top dog at shoving people into tin cans, heaving them into orbit, and letting them float around for months on end. They know how to keep people alive in space. The US dominates on transport and entry. We know how to safely get hardware on the surface. The ESA will probably toss in a few nuts and bolts and maybe a nerd or two, too.
Originally posted by Senor_Vicente
Russiya did not go to Mars because they were poor, Communism makes you poor, and they do have the longest times in space, Mir.
They do have quite a track record in space but they never went to the Moon they just went up and stayed in Mir.
Originally posted by danwild6
What would be the point of the russians going to mars and not telling anyone? There would be no point. If its to stake a claim on the planet International law forbids sovereign governments claiming extraterrestrial territory(UN Space Treaty of 1969).
And even if that wasn't the case secret claims on territory are illegitimate under previous conventions. So if the Russians did get there it probably wasn't to stake a claim.
But we all know how big the Soviets were into propoganda victories and this would have been their greatest of all. So why keep it secret?
None of this makes sense. The fact is that there isn't a chance that the russians got to mars not because it was technologically not possible. But because the didn't rub our faces into the dirt after it was all done.
Originally posted by stuffofnightmares
in threads ive been reading before i heard talk about how russia secretly made it to mars before the usa. is this true? does anyone have any links to share? thanks!
Originally posted by StellarX
Originally posted by apc
It would still be impossible to hide the mission.
Why exactly would that be impossible? I have checked it out and apparently it's actually not hard to hide it at all.
PLEASE ELABORATE.
Originally posted by StellarX
The point would be that they could gain huge advantage ( defense in depth as they say) even in pure military terms. Do you really believe treaties that STILL can not even keep the USA from invading Iraq would have kept the USSR from going to Mars? Is that really something you want to base your reasoning on ?
Originally posted by StellarX
They would just go there to do some sigthseeing and check out all the pyramids? Well i guess that makes sense if they want to set up space tourism missions to Mars.
Originally posted by StellarX
Because propaganda is good and well when you can not hide something anyways ( sputnik) but is rather different when your going for the high ground in space after EVERYONE who knows anything long ago realised that you are the dominant power in space.
Originally posted by StellarX
Well it frequently find that the ammount of sense something makes to any given person is very much related to their leveo ignorance on given topic or in general. If you want i am willing to help you with a brief history of the Russian and American space programs so that you may judge the situation without the bias so inherent in western media/media in general.
Originally posted by StellarX
Why you think a state like the USSR would admit to such dominance over the world i really have no idea. You can talk about how strong you are up to a certain point and then all you will achieve is forcing others to realise the danger and unite against you. The US has not realised this yet but their time will come.
Originally posted by danwild6
What advantage? A secret military base that they couldn't comunicate with otherwise it wouldn't be so secret anymore.
Whats the purpose of a military base on mars? It serves no purpose.
Why? Think about it were do you put your military resources? Why do you put them there? You put your military were their are national interests i.e natural resources, ideological allies.
You put your forces their for two reasons to secure the region and its resources for yourself as well as to deny them to your adversary.
A: Persian Gulf- Immense narutal resources of oil and natural gas. Strategically important region.
B- Mars- Geologically dead for billions of years. Six months away it best. No martians to protect or liberate.
As far as Iraq I don't believe their was a treaty preventing our action but that is an entirely different thread.
They would have to go there for one or more of the following reasons.
1- Strategic location: At some point in the future mars may hold some strategic value. Right now it doesn't.
2- Economic possibilties: Mars probably has significant mineral deposits which perhaps in the future will become economically viable.
3- Political possibilties: If another space race heats up the first to land on mars would be the victor.
I don't think that comment is even in the ball park. Lets say your right and the rooskies got to mars and dominated the surrounding space. So what! We are here on earth and if your talking about the high ground of signifcance it would be the moon wouldn't it.
It would take maybe a say or two for a missile that was fired from the moon toreach its target here on earth. It would take a much larger rocket launch from mars to do the same.
I think you misunderstood my post. I said we haven't gone to mars yet not because it wasn't possible but because the politically will wasn't there. And I am quite fimiliar with both the success and failures of the US and Soviet space programs. As well as their current capabilities.
Well isn't that what happened? The USSR occupied and enslaved eastern europe and central asia and were so nasty that the rest of the world thought the US was the lesser threat.
It sounds like someone failed history. The fact is I can't see any reason that the USSR would keep a mars landing quiet it just goes against there entire history.
Originally posted by StellarX
And what exactly rules out communication with it? Explain the physics in question me. Why would it be hard to hide signals to it in all the background clutter?
Originally posted by StellarX
Why ask if you have made up your mind allready?So basically having a' base' that can not be hit by a first strike attack is a bad thing in military terms now? Fact is it is the ultimate high ground wether they in fact managed it or not.
Originally posted by StellarX
Or to create instability or to encircle your enemy or to put pressure on his allies etc etc etc.
Originally posted by StellarX
Mars is probably not geologically inactive as we can see while areas with very little cratering apparent. Six months? Yawn, rockets, yawn. There are far faster ways to travel ....
Originally posted by StellarX
How on earth can you argue it holds no strategic value? High ground is high ground whatever the time lapse.....
Originally posted by StellarX
They are still holing out large underground 'bases' in Russia to this very day so they do apparently have cash to spend on thing you consider 'uneconomical'.
Originally posted by StellarX
Unless someone is allready there.... The US lost the "space race' back in late 70's ( well the lost it much earlier but that was the end of their competition to Russian dominance imo)
Originally posted by StellarX
Well the assumption is that if they could go to Mars they probably sorted out their activity on the Moon long before; right? Logical, right?
Originally posted by StellarX
Well missiles are rather old fashioned when you have particle beam and other DEW's so why talk about them? The Moon is the ideal DEW base and that has been known since the 50's. Mabye you want to look into some of my posts relating to Russian direct energy weapons?
Originally posted by StellarX
Well my apologies then. I normally try work from the basis that other people are well informed but sometimes they make it rather hard for me. Do you really know what capabilities the Russians/Americans had? Did you do your own research or is it just what you heard on radio and TV?
Originally posted by StellarX
Then you know very little about the history of the USSR imo. If only i had the good sense not to believe the nonsense i got taught at school i would have gotten where i am now far sooner.