Is the Cold War really over? The Soviet/KGB long range deception

I think this is the right board to post this on.

I recently posted this under a different topic, but I thought it may also be worthy of its on topic. I've been searching ATS for a little while to see if it was brought up in the past, but I was surprised that there had been no mention of this particular subject.

This particular subject is of great interest to me, and I hope to some of you as well.

Have any of you read "New Lies for Old" or "The Perestoika Deception" by Anatoly Golitsyn (ex-Soviet KGB)? He describes a long range Soviet/KGB deception aimed at disarming the West and leading to a nuclear strike on the US - you can read up more information here

You may want to visit The Final Phase Forum where they discuss this exact topic. Bear in mind that the majority of their members are very conservative and religious - other than that, there is some good information and some well done research backing up their theories.

Another person you may find of interest is Jeff Nyquist who has his own website and research dedicated to Anatoly Golitsyn and Soviet deception. The forum above is also dedicated and regularly discuss Jeff Nyquist research. I believe he is also a highly recognised and reputable financial commentor/researcher.

And finally, also relating to the above, is Joel Skousen, who has a page dedicated to the threats posed by Russia, China and the NWO at his website here. Again, quite conservative and religious, but good research and backing of his ideas and opinions.

It's certainly interesting reading and something that is highly probable. I'm sure many of you here are well aware that President Putin is an ex-KGB agent.

Anyway, a perfect topic for the perfect forum

I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on the topic.

EDIT: This might actually be suited under Military and Government Projects. Could a Moderator possibly move it? Thanks

[edit on 23-2-2006 by James Daniel]

I'm surprised this hasn't had any replies, as it fits in perfectly with the ATS theme - it conspiracy based, afterall.

I'll add further later - hopefully they'll have been some interest

I don't doubt this though I doubt the likely hood of it being so organized.

The current situation in Russia is far more chaotic; there is no "top leadership" with a master plan. It is a declining Empire with a strong singularity (Putin) but a weak plurality. That is the greatest threat to the gained freedoms in Russia.

Russians gained freedom but can they hold it?

In France, the French fell into a similar but more problematic chaos which led to a singular strong leader ... Napoleon.

It is undoubtful that Putin; of the "Unity Party" will become a singular leader, or his successor.

The next election will be the primary dictate of this, if Putin steps down we know there's some progress...if he doesn't then that's rather expected.

But in Russia the runner-up is a Communist; so either way either the increasingly facsist Unity Party wins, or the Communist Party wins...neither I think, will lead the nation to more liberty.

To conclude: I don't think there is a "Plot" but I do think there is a concept that they were thinking of. Russia is certainly continuing their ballistics research, their missile defense and their civilian defense programs. As well as Nuclear research.

All of which are banned by various treaties that the US stupidly adheres to.

I feel that the cod war w/Russia is just on simmer at the moment. The real cold war is going on now with Iran, China, and all the countries that end in (stan's). N.Korea is up there too. As the dwindling reserves of oil play out, you will see the major players show their ugly faces and some have already have done so. The intensity of such is now starting up so hold on.

Well if the fall of the USSR was a elaborate deception by the Soviets in hopes of getting the US military to disarm the US aint buying it. US military spending has vastly increased since the Cold War ended with no signs of slowing.

Russia is still doing some shady Cold war stuff in places like its massive Yamantau mountain complex. God only knows what they are doing there. But it they some how faked the Collapse it would be a deception of unprecedented scale.

There still really isnt any way to pull off a nuclear strike and have anything close to what could be considered a win without a successful first strike strategy. Niether the US or Russia seem to have this ablitily. If the US had its orginal order of B-2 it might have a good shot with the whole fleet armed with stealth nuclear cruise missiles.

But even that would be moot without a simultaneous coordinated attack on Russia nuclear submarines which borders on the impossible.

Oh! this one of the best conspiracies Ive heard in a while.....


I have a question, no matter why the USSR collapsed is it possible communism will re-emerge again?

Will the Russian people remember the glory days? first into space, first with a satelite, always trying to upstage the west....

I will be honest in saying I was truly shocked(once I was old enough to understand what had happened the USSR collapsed and it probably would not have if it had not been bankrupted...

Soviet military hardware flooded and still does flood the market of weapons since the fall of the Soviet Union....AK-47's, SKS, to name a few can be purchased for a couple of hundred bucks(and this is after the mark up).

Putin has also wanted reinstated the russian national anthem to the old soviet anthem

english.people.com.cn...

Could the Red wave rise again in russia?



[edit on 26-2-2006 by XphilesPhan]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan


Soviet military hardware flooded and still does flood the market of weapons since the fall of the Soviet Union....AK-47's, SKS, to name a few can be purchased for a couple of hundred bucks(and this is after the mark up).

Thats a blessing and a Curse for Russia. Russia created a superb rifle the AN-94 much better then the AK but it was expensive to make even Russia couldn't afford to equip the bulk of their army with them.

So they tried to sell them abroad but the market was already flooded with cheap AKs and nobody wanted to shell out the money for the AN-94 even though its a better gun.

Victims of their own success

I am Russian. I've lived there for about 30 years and left three years after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I can tell you this: there certainly is something very strange going on...Everything has been changed topically, but internally, the government still operates the same way it has. All the high leaders all had solid positions before the fall, and still hold them today. (an example, Yeltsin was the "governor" (sorry, no other way to put it) of fmr. Sverdlovsk where he was engaged in a massive cover-up for a military accident. He progressed through the ranks and became the president of the newly formed "democratic" country...I find that a bit strange...

Anyway, everybody is speculating the possibility of WWIII, where the allies (USA, GB, Russia) will face off against a linked front (Iran, Syria, China)...Now this is the part that scares me: Russia has been puppeteering the middle east for a long time...During the communist era, they've sold weapons, bio-weapons, you name it to Iraq, Iran, Syria etc etc...Supposing that Russia is still the Soviet empire in disguise, and China is a communist country, wouldnt the two ally? I think we're all in for a surprise: When the United States invades Iran (if they're stupid enough to do so), Russia will show it's true colours and come to aid the Irani military, backed by China...The communists have always wanted to see the fall of the West. And I think that itll be achieved this way...

I think Ivan's statement captures somewhat the reality...that the Russian Revolution there was a change of power not necessarily a change of government.

But it was a change of ideology. Political Officers now find themselves rather useless in the military there.

Thus...in part the fall of the USSR was an adaption to the real world; but it doesn't mean those in power were going to give it up...it merely means that those willing to make the change moved-up in rank.

Russia and China have not seen eye to eye politically in years. Russia saw China as a looming threat to their security being their southerly neighbor sharing a border. If there had been WW3 in the 1980s, Russia nad China would not have been allies, but enemies. These are just my thoughts on the subject. I could see an alliance between NATO and Russia happening with the circumstances right, that would be best case scenario in the event of WW3.

Your pretty much on target with your post James. The Cold war never ended even if they managed to convince us it did.

Russia and China Prepare for War -- Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8

Newsmax regularly publish the work of both Jeff Nyquist and of Stanislav Lunev ( highest ranking SU military defector ever) and is a great source of information of how American political leaders have been selling out their country for decades.

Stellar



[edit on 26-2-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by ludaChris
Russia and China have not seen eye to eye politically in years. Russia saw China as a looming threat to their security being their southerly neighbor sharing a border.

It seems that even that was mostly part of the illusion. Go look at the treaties they have been signing for the last 2 decades and how they have been moving troop formations away from their mutual borders.

If there had been WW3 in the 1980s, Russia nad China would not have been allies, but enemies.

That is what the USA tried to arrange but the Chinese were allready firmly 'out of it' by that time if not married outright to the Russian cause.

These are just my thoughts on the subject. I could see an alliance between NATO and Russia happening with the circumstances right, that would be best case scenario in the event of WW3.

Russia is never going to ally with NATO after what the west has done to Russia over the last century. I just do not see that happening with what i have read and seen

Stellar

[edit on 26-2-2006 by StellarX]

This is the thing that kills me: Can't the USA's intelligence unmask this massive cover up? Are they being drawn in to a world war set up by Russia and China?
I think it's a set up and the US is falling right into this booby trap

Originally posted by ivansusanin
This is the thing that kills me: Can't the USA's intelligence unmask this massive cover up? Are they being drawn in to a world war set up by Russia and China?
I think it's a set up and the US is falling right into this booby trap

Well China can only do so much in case of a nuclear war but what can Russia do with their three decade old ABM system? So American intelligence ( specifically the CIA, which is nothing but a Wall street operation anyways) have been selling out America for a very long time.

How the ABM Treaty Has Kept the United States Vulnerable.

Foreign Aid For Russia's ABM System.

Bush's Offer to Jointly Develop Missile Defense System with Russia Unwise.

Does Russia already have a national missile defense?

Stellar

Actually, I have seen this subject covered on ATS before. It's likely that the lousy search engine here has prevented you from finding those threads.

I've always found this conspiracy to be interesting, and sometimes believable. What I don't understand is that how, if Russia is planning for an eventual military confrontation with the West, they would be willing to give up so much of their territory (especially strategic territory like the Ukraine), and lose most or all of the military hardware and weapons systems in those territories, as well as allow large portions of their navy to rust away or be sold to developing countries?

Why would they give up their firm grip on power, and the ideology of government being God and the West being their evil enemy which they had bestowed in their citizens for decades? Wouldn't this be beneficial when asking their men to go off and die in an unprovoked war against the US? And let's assume for a moment that Russia is behind al Qaida and a large amount of terrorist attacks against the US and other Western nations. Wouldn't it have been better if they didn't create a fictional enemy for the US to battle, and to increase its military and domestic security to wage war against? Even though our military is changing the way it conducts war from the old large scale nation vs. nation battles to combatting terrorism and using surgical strikes (at least for the most part), wouldn't Russia be better off not having us build up or modernize our military in anyway?

Those are just some of the problems that I have with this theory. Let's also not forget the grand scale of this conspiracy, and how hard it would be to plan and conduct in modern times. With all of the defections and spying and whatnot, wouldn't there be more than just a handful of people coming forward to tell of this conspiracy against the US? And why aren't we hearing this from anyone in the Western intelligence community? They certainly have double agents inside the Russian government.

That's just my two cents. I'm no expert on any of these issues, by any stretch of the imagination. I only hope I haven't wasted anyone's time reading this and I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to illustrate here!

Hi all and thank you for replying.

First, I'd like to apologise for the delay of my reply.

Anyway, its nice to see others opinions and ideas, especially Rasputin13's response - which I will get back to shortly, just have a few things to complete and then I can invest some more time in this thread

Originally posted by Rasputin13
I've always found this conspiracy to be interesting, and sometimes believable. What I don't understand is that how, if Russia is planning for an eventual military confrontation with the West, they would be willing to give up so much of their territory (especially strategic territory like the Ukraine),

Well imo you can still 'control' these countries by other means just as empires have done before. Rigging elections and making sure that all the runners know what they can, and can not, get away with politically speaking will get you the same trade/military benefits without all the normal strategic hangups.

and lose most or all of the military hardware and weapons systems in those territories, as well as allow large portions of their navy to rust away or be sold to developing countries?

Well i have a rather particular idea about all that but it's not really something i wish to present here just yet. Let's just say they may very well believe that they can win a nuclear exchange or get their way politically without the resources/weapon systems in question. Over time i do believe they got back most of what the wanted back by one way or another.

Why would they give up their firm grip on power, and the ideology of government being God and the West being their evil enemy which they had bestowed in their citizens for decades?

Well their grip on power may not have been slipping fast (IMO) but running so large a empire against the will of so many certainly takes a great deal of resources more than it would to do so by less aggressive and overt ways IMO. Churches were opening in Russian since about the mid 70's if you go back and look at what some prominent western Church men had to say. The SU were even back than doing some serious reforming at all levels of government and civil life. While Stalin and gang certainly did call the West names on every occasion it really was not always called for considering what the West did in the world with or without SU activity in given region. The "propaganda" was mostly true.

Wouldn't this be beneficial when asking their men to go off and die in an unprovoked war against the US?

The whole notion that the SU would have started a unprovoked war against the west is something i do not understand but I'll leave it at that. I like the presume that humans being mostly humans anywhere you go will fight for their country ( we have been conditioned to do so since birth) whatever the gods or propaganda invoked against that particular enemy.

And let's assume for a moment that Russia is behind al Qaida and a large amount of terrorist attacks against the US and other Western nations.

Why would we want to do that? The USA have made very many enemies over the last century alone so it really could be almost anyone ( certainly not 20 odd Arabs who left no paperwork behind) or any group of countries in the world. I am sure you are well aware of the massive amount of stock traded in the sectors that were going to be affected most. That being said it could very well be the Russians.

Wouldn't it have been better if they didn't create a fictional enemy for the US to battle, and to increase its military and domestic security to wage war against?

Well the US is expending massive resources in simply feeding and moving men around which is not the way you save money or invest in new weaponry and research. Fighting low intensity type conflicts just saps your strength so if you do not have enough to start with it soon starts hurting. All of this has made the USA look the bad guy in world affairs and try find Putin going on national TV in Russia claiming that the USA is the devil. They actually JOINED the war on terror and they are making a killing economically on the jump the oil prices took after the start on the 'War on terror'.

Even though our military is changing the way it conducts war from the old large scale nation vs. nation battles to combatting terrorism and using surgical strikes (at least for the most part), wouldn't Russia be better off not having us build up or modernize our military in anyway?

Well restructuring for these kinds of conflicts is going to hurt the US no end in a conventional type conflict IMO. Troops and equipment is being worn out by constant operations and just replacements ( men&machines) is sucking the US military establishment quite dry. They will obviously get additional funds but operational and deployment spending is very high for any army.

Those are just some of the problems that I have with this theory. Let's also not forget the grand scale of this conspiracy, and how hard it would be to plan and conduct in modern times.

This is rather subjective since i believe in just such conspiracies. How can establishments like the Federal reserve exists in modern times and run such simple scams to the detriment of everyone? Global conspiracies are not only possible but not hard to manage once you control certain aspects of economics and human conditioning IMO. How many people were responsibility for the decisions that forced Japan into a aggressive war of conquest ( or losing all their national esteem) just a few years ago? How would Hitler have funded his economic reforms and war machine without Wall street investment? These conspiracies were staged by just a few people.

With all of the defections and spying and whatnot, wouldn't there be more than just a handful of people coming forward to tell of this conspiracy against the US?

Because the US intelligence establishment would never admit these things publicly. The messenger often gets shot ( first even) so no one likes being one especially when they were hired by the people who they are supposed to bring the message to. What would the American public do if they were to realise that the American government have been lying to them about the strength of their enemies for decades? Since the current president can not go back and change the actions of those before him why would he risk losing all his credibility in the eyes of his citizens and the world? Pride and general self serving nature of government makes sure that these things can be hidden if the people in the know have a good idea of what will happen to them if they speak up. Even when some DO speak up they are shouted down by their peers who convinces the public ( who hates surprises and hates to the fact that they could be fooled so easily) that nothing happened and that it's all one big lie. While the majority serves only themselves the minority can only do so much to inform people and change perception.

And why aren't we hearing this from anyone in the Western intelligence community? They certainly have double agents inside the Russian government.

If the intelligence establishments serves the government ( as they do) they have no obligation to ensure that the government tells the people and since the government is normally unwilling to risk their credibility and jobs they certainly wont. As i have showed it can be proven that the CIA have lied about Russian ABM programs for decades even while the DIA and others have gone ahead and talked about it openly. In the end you must choose who to believe and if you are badly informed in general you normally just agree with your peers.

That's just my two cents. I'm no expert on any of these issues, by any stretch of the imagination. I only hope I haven't wasted anyone's time reading this and I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to illustrate here!

Well few people ( if any) are really experts on anything even if they like thinking they are so I am always suspicious of those who imagine they understand anything well enough to call themselves 'experts'...... I , for instance, will admit that i am extremely ignorant but i do my best to convince myself and others that i am less so than them.

Stellar