We are Building Homes on Mars

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid


In theory both of them could do that. With a sail though you would need a laser to produce the thrust, since as you got further from the Sun your power would diminish.

Using a laser is interesting could you bring your own laser along with the craft? Or would one have to be stationed at earth and another farther out from where you want to go to send you back to earth?

mrjenka I cant get your links to work. I have heard theories on how things like Gravity drives might work and how they might even allow you to cheat the Light speed Barrier. But I assume they were very far off because first we dont even fully undertsand gravity is. We know what gravity does but nobody really knows what its is Particles? Some people think so but they dont know for sure.

But also since most of them require insane amounts of energy to even work in theory. Perhaps if we had a good production of Anti-matter to power these things. But even now the entire global production of anti-matter is pathetic it would take us millions of years to make a few grams at the current production rate.

We have no practical or theoretical method by which anti-matter could ever be produced in bulk quantities.

The links seem to be working for me. They are from the patent office. Link one is from May 05 and link two is Nov. 05. Fairly recent, figure in 5-10 years, we will have vacuum propulsion that can exceed the speed of light. It's not cheating the speed of light- it's going around light. Imagine your car while your driving it, how the air just curves around your car? Same thing here, when able to travel the speed of light and beyond you can bend and manipulate light itself.

Originally posted by mrjenka
Have you guys ever though beyond solar sails and Ion drives?

While these things, such as the gravitational and vacuum propulsion that you suggested, would be neat and probably very efficient, we have no way to manufacture the materials that are needed. Along with that, any power sources that we currently have wouldn't be enough to make it worth it.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Using a laser is interesting could you bring your own laser along with the craft? Or would one have to be stationed at earth and another farther out from where you want to go to send you back to earth?

You could bring one with you, but that means the added mass of the laser generator would have to come along too. On top of that you would need one hefty power supply, with would add even more mass. While it would be convienient, the best bet would be to have it on some ground based station. Also, as far as I know, any plans for an interstellar solar sail have all only used one laser.

There are a few major problems with solar sails that need a laser for interstellar travel though. Firstly, what if there is a world war on the planet where it's based from? The laser could be destroyed and then your craft is SOL. Secondly, once you get to your target you won't need another laser to slow down. You simply turn around and use the sail more like a parachute. The only problem is though, how do you get back home? You would need another laser somewhere in that system in order to get back. Chances are there wouldn't be one there.

Larry Niven wrote a great short story to the tune of something like that second major problem. A race of interstellar merchants comes to Earth via solar sail propulsion and brings with them the answers to many of mankind's problems. How they want to leave though is interesting. The story is called "The Fourth Profession" and it's in his short story collection A Hole in Space, if you're interested in reading it.

Originally posted by mrjenka
It's not cheating the speed of light- it's going around light. Imagine your car while your driving it, how the air just curves around your car? Same thing here, when able to travel the speed of light and beyond you can bend and manipulate light itself.

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible analogy! When you're driving in a car the air does not part for you like the Red Sea did Moses. In fact, it does the opposite! There's a thing called wind resistance, or drag. As your car passes through the air, the air pushes back on the car, slowing it down. This is also why skydivers and other falling objects have a terminal velocity. That's the speed at which the pull of gravity and the force of wind resistance are equalized. The falling object cannot go faster than this speed without some sort of assistance.

Cool thanks for the info on the solar sails cmdrkeenkid

I was never sure if bringing your own laser with you could work even if not very practical. Could be good to use for one way probe mission with a earth based laser getting up to speeds a 10th of speed of light would be amazing. You could actually send a probe to Proxima Centauri and have it get their in a humans lifetime with those speeds. Though it wold take over 4 years for it even to send back signals of what it finds.

The story you mentioned sounds interesting I have to look it up.

I don't think the problem is getting there, it is more along the lines of getting there efficiently. All of these new technologies sound great, but what about once we are there?
Like cmdrkeenkid said, we have an atmosphere and magnetosphere protecting us. On Mars, we would be assaulted by solar winds, direct sunlight, low gravity...not to mention there is no food or water (that we know of) there...

Just seems pretty far away. I don't see it happening in my lifetime. Or even attempted.

Okay since we are talking like 20-30 years into the future, why don't we send all the necessary components to fabricate and build a laser and power source on Mars. It would be an extremely difficult endevor but the benefits would far outweight the benefits of just sending a Laser and Nuclear Plant to mars. Once it's setup you can just modify it to start building other stuff like Habitats, Greenhouses, Satellites, Additional Solar Sails, etc.

And before you say "it will be even more massive" maybe not.

Think Molecular Manufacturing.

[edit on 23-2-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Rouschkateer
On Mars, we would be assaulted by solar winds, direct sunlight, ...

These problems would only come up if you were spending a long time on Mars. The Moon missions had to deal with all those effects to a much greater degree then on mars. The moon had no atmosphere at all and is much closer to the sun then mars so solar winds would be stronger.

If you wanted to spend long amounts of time on Mars all those nasty effects could negated by simply building the complex or part of it on mars underground. A few feet of martian soil would be a better protection then the earth atmosphere ever was. You could have a small underground shelter to go into when ever solar flares reached any dangerous levels. Once levels go back to normal go about your work.

Mars has enough Gravity to not really be any problem at all, only very low and Zero Gs enviroments have really bad side effects over long peroids.

I saw a simulation of a Martian sandstorm with a hypothetical Martian astronaut standing right in it's path. You want to know the result? A very dirty spacesuit. A windspeed of 100 kph on Mars isn't as deadly as 100 kph on Earth. Why? Because it's not moving as big a volume of atmosphere as on Earth and that means that there is less "grip" to pick up larger objects and stuff like that.

Why think about mars when parts of our world are not inhabited yet?
Besides, the only people living in mars when we are able and bother to will obviously be scientists
would you want to retire to mars? i wouldnt

Originally posted by mrjenka

7-10 month trip there in a capsule. Imagine how boring that would be.

Boring? it would probably be the best 10 months of your live... imagin everything you see out there...

Originally posted by Dutch_Rick

Boring? it would probably be the best 10 months of your live... imagin everything you see out there...

There is a lot less out there than you think.... Remember, it is ALL just stars in space. Even the sun will look a bit smaller. And with no day or night, it will always look the same, not even the pretty colors of a sun set.

You'd be in a vast field of faint stars and darkness, just you and your capsul of people.

Now back to my earlier statement, How boring do you think that would be

While the immediate scenery on the voyage may be a bit dull for the non-astronomer, having one on board with a telescope could provide people astounding views of the cosmos. So that would easily make up for it being so dull to just look out the window.

Aside from that, we have so much digitized media that no one should be bored. Movies, music, books and games could stored on computers for anyone to view at anytime. New media could just be uploaded to the craft. So the travellers would have an unlimited supply of entertainment.

Say you have 10 people, with 10 choices each for movies, books, and music albums. They exclude repeats, so if someone has already picked something you want to pick you can't, and the picking is done anonymously so there can be know "Well I wanted to pick that" arguements. From right there you end up with 100 different movies, 100 different books, and 100 different music albums. That there should be enough for almost anyone to get them through a six to ten month journey. If not they'll still have email, video/voice calls (though the time lag may need getting used to), and games to play. What sort of games? Video games, electronic versions of board games, electronic crosswords and other one person games. They'll also have other games, like hide and seek or perhaps they can be really creative and come up with a new game that can only be played in space.

Not to mention I'm sure they would allow "recreational" space walks from time to time. Sure, it may be dangerous, but it would help relieve the stress of being cooped up in a vessel for so long. Not to mention it would be a morale booster for the same reason.

So how would the voyage be boring again?

[edit on 3/7/2006 by cmdrkeenkid]

CMDR- now that is one good idea! 'recreational space walks' but! How do you recreationaly walk through space while traveling at 10,000+ miles per second? One hell of a ride I would think, beats the heck outta Six Flags and any Disney Land ride Just teasing

Originally posted by jra

Originally posted by mrjenka
as long as they don't mind the 7-10 month trip there in a capsule. Imagine how boring that would be.

I don't think it would be that bad at all. Just give me a bunch of video games and i'm set.

I was thinking the same thing. And a girl , of course.

Originally posted by mrjenka
CMDR- now that is one good idea! 'recreational space walks' but! How do you recreationaly walk through space while traveling at 10,000+ miles per second? One hell of a ride I would think, beats the heck outta Six Flags and any Disney Land ride

Just teasing

Well the person in the suit would be traveling as fast as the ship. And besides, for a trip to Mars I would certainly hope they've be going a lot faster than that!

Great idea cmdrkeenkid about the electronic media movie, music, videogames etc.. and the fact that you could upload new media created on earth would be sweet.

From what I understand now the longest times spent in space by the Russians were mainly filled with "busy work" they had them exercise which is important but also check and recheck systems and other stuff to really just keep them busy.

I remember seeing a show with a cosmonaut that stayed up for a long time and he said when they started growing wheat that was oneof their favorite things to do. The cosmonauts would tend the wheat as much as 7 times a day.They said it was nice to to have something green and living among all that cold metal. It made them feel more connected to earth.

They really didnt have the option of electronic media back in those days though. Unless they wanted pong maybe

But learning from the Russians I would advise some plant life be brought along even if it isnt used for any purpose other then perhaps making the astronauts feel better.

Originally posted by Teph2112
Why think about mars when parts of our world are not inhabited yet?

But isn't that a good thing? I'd rather there be parts of this world left untouched by us humans.

I really don't think i'd mind the long trip. As long as there is always something to do. I think it would be kind of fun really. What was the longest amount of time some one spent in space? I seem to recall it being about a year or a bit more, not sure though. Plus people onboard subs stay under for about 3 months or so. I don't think people would have a hard time dealing with 6 - 8 months really.

cmdrkeenkid
...perhaps they can be really creative and come up with a new game that can only be played in space

Yeah for sure. That would fun to try to come up with some.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Great idea cmdrkeenkid about the electronic media movie, music, videogames etc.. and the fact that you could upload new media created on earth would be sweet.

Yeah, and especially since new technology is being developed that would give broadband communication rates from craft in space and Earth.

But learning from the Russians I would advise some plant life be brought along even if it isnt used for any purpose other then perhaps making the astronauts feel better.

Why stop at plant life? I wonder how well cats or birds would adapt to the free fall? Of course, there may be a problem of them going to the bathroom... Maybe some sort of animal diapers?

[edit on 3/27/2006 by cmdrkeenkid]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
As for the mars trip being 7-10 months its does not need to be nearly that long. With proven technology we have now like Ion drives it could be done much quicker. 1-2 months I beleive.

No, an ion engines would take far longer to reach Mars...but it would be cheaper.

I think what your thinking of is a NIAC concept called Mag-Beam, where a plasma beam pushes & pulls a spacecraft from point A to B. If one of these were in a perminent orbit above earth, and one above Mars, then it would take a spacecraft 45 days to reach Mars, and the same to get back...Its one of my favorite methods, mainly because its the one of the cheapest yet fastest ways of getting to Mars.

BTW, As long as the Nasa keeps funding the Mag-Beam, then the first test mission should happen in 5 years or so.