Why do Christians have a problem with Evolution?

Why do you believe there is more to life? From what you've read, were taught, perhaps experience's you can't fully explain to yourself? A few claim's here and there that some are hoax's and you don't realize they are? Perhaps some of the claims in a life after death experience? Those claims are fully reproducible and explainable by science today.

Maybe it is just easier to belive than there is nothing or no reason.
Can you answer me ... why>?

For some it's easier to believe in a god. For some they just can't accept that there's really no purpose to life, no purpose for the universe and that death is just a complete end of our live's. They find it easier to find comfort in thinking everything has a divine purpose and that they'll move onto this blissfull afterlife and live peacefull live's for an eternity. Honestly, if I weren't so comfortable with reality, I'd probably believe in all that too. But I don't fear the unknown.

I think Produkt said it pretty well. Also the CaptainSalt (hope I got it right) made a good point. We should not brand average Christians by confusing them with fundies. Most Christians are not irritating, boisterous, overbearing, blowhards. Those are the fundies who unfortunately for the American people and our concepts of freedom, control the current, embarrassing Congress. Most Christians are just average people who go through the motions and are happy with the organized program. I think most Moslems are Sunni and are pretty much the same as most Christians in they are mostly benign, if rote.
The problem is with the fundies in any religion. Those babies are a scorge on humanity.
skep

I think there are too many variables here. The "bible" is a complimation of texts of varying age and language. Therefore it can lose some creditability. Also some people are frightened by the thought of a Godless universe, they need a purpose for life. Then there are those who use religion to control /exploit people. Finally new discoveries (eg the scroll of st thomas) bring contradiction.

The point I'm trying to make is that some people will fight tooth and nail against something to stay in their comfort zone, regardless if it is wrong. A trait of human nature I guess.

Well you have summed it up well.
Don't get me wrong i'm by no means a practicing "christian"
I havn't been to church scince i was 8 years old.
And I don't preach the word of god... but i have been down the road of not believing in anything, and your right, it leads to depressing thoughts of how pointless life all realy seems, how inadiquite one person realy is.
I mean if I was a practicing christian I would't even be on this site.
To be honest I'm easily swayed by the "right now" of life.
And i know it's those thoughts of god and religion that make people feel better, feel theres a purpose. It's those same thoughts that help people stay on track too.
It gives people a reason to do the right thing, to not cheat people, to be honest with people.
But If you knew without a doubt that there is no god or life after death, then realy theres no good or bad.. There just actions..done by animals.
A dog that kills a cat isn't a bad dog.. just doing what dogs do.
Thats the problem with life without religion.. we become more self destuctive.

sorry to have gone way off the subject of evolution. I'm a new memeber and just trying to get into some topics.

And i know it's those thoughts of god and religion that make people feel better, feel theres a purpose. It's those same thoughts that help people stay on track too.
It gives people a reason to do the right thing, to not cheat people, to be honest with people.
But If you knew without a doubt that there is no god or life after death, then realy theres no good or bad.. There just actions..done by animals.

I have to disagree there ... If someone really need's a book to tell them killing another man is obviously not good, then that person, in my opinion has alot of severe problem's. All the bible teach's are common sense morals. When a kid does something bad, they instinctly know they did bad, not because they read it in the bible or any other religous doctrine. The fact that there is no god should make people think even more about their action's. You only get one chance to live this life. Would someone be willing to throw that one chance away for instant gratification because they know they're not going to an eternal hell? I know some people do have psychological problem's and they can't help those kind's of action's, but for those of us who don't suffer those problem's ... I doubt many of us would throw away our one chance for a quickie gratification treat. Even today, that bible isn't helping those of faith be more moral and behave right. You can see many example's of that right here on ATS. Those of faith generally attack those who don't believe, and I'm sure many people on here who don't believe can attest to that fact.

Well i'm not going to contest what your saying,
obviously religion has just as much to do with the earths deteriation over the centuries as anything else.
I don't think you can see my point of personal belief because it's whole heartedly opion.
And that of someone can't be changed.
I don't know if theres anywhere else i can take this topic today lol...

But hey thanks for the discussion ,, it's been a good first one for me.
Sure i'll see you in another forum at some other time.
cheers mate

Originally posted by Busymind
I think some Christians have a problem with evolution because their bible says man was created in God's image; and how can God be perfect if He is evolving?

Good point. But if you read in the Bible, is Man perfect?

Originally posted by Produkt
I have to disagree there ... If someone really need's a book to tell them killing another man is obviously not good, then that person, in my opinion has alot of severe problem's.

Actually, "Thou shalt not kill" and the other Nine of the Commandments were very revolutionary at the time. Murder laws were pretty lax in the surrounding nations. I can't remember all the details, but I got this off some Ten Commandments special on the History Channel.

Uh yea ... so revolutionary that those of faith in god took it upon themselve's to say god commanded them to kill regardless of the commandment's all the while having a very capable god able to do his own smiting. The only thing revolutionary about religion is the violence it has brought into this world. All in the name of the good lord himself. Not to mention the superstitous fear's and idiocy it has spread. The destruction of culture's. The intollerance for other belief's, although that seem's to be changing abit despite the first commandment and a few other thing's god says about other belief's. Not a single christian today even upholds all 10 commandments or other command's god gave to his people.

And ffs, no one will answer me. Which god is the right god? Even in the monotheistic circle of super friends, not one can give a good enough answer of which one is right more so then the other. There can not be more then one true god can there?

Just thought i'd add to your "what god is the real or right god".
The thing with the major religions, which i would sum up as christianity, Judaism and islam.
Most realy refer to a same entity as the real god.
All the religions stemmed from the middle east and belive in jesus, but all beliveing his place in the importence of history is different.
Islam says he is a profit, but not the son of god and Mohamed is the most impoent figure (spoke to god at mecca).
The books and churches are the dangerous things.. someones views fu..ed everyone up..

Yeah and produkt, the crusades are one of the greastest show of Hypocrisy in history...

[edit on 2-3-2006 by Apoplexy123]

When I ask which god is the real or right god, I don't mean just the monotheistic version's of god. I mean all god's claimed throughout history. Event the one's monotheism set out to destroy durring it's birth to dominance.

[edit on 2-3-2006 by Produkt]

Originally posted by Produkt
Are all primate's considered made in god's image then? Ever here of koko the gorilla? She display's all those same trait's. As do quiet alot of animals. The only thing seperating us from the animals is our STUPIDITY.

Your bumber sticker version of what it means to be a Christian not withstanding... what does it mean when you say, "The only thing seperating us from the animals is our STUPIDITY"...huh?? We are now less intelligent than animals... please explain. Or was this just another of those, foaming at the mouth, mini-rants that you didn't bother thinking through before you posted it... again?

Do you have any examples of art, music, philosophy, architecture, law, civilization, etc etc, or even one tool (other than putting a stick in an ant hill to capture a snack)... anything from the, much smarter than man, animal kingdom to use as an example? You're the guy in the other thread who tried to refute a scientific paper based on what you read in the abstract, yes? You may want to re-think the methodology of your research/uniformed skepticism... just a thought. Seems, to me, like alot of this stuff is flying over your head... i'll try one more link to explain "... in His image.." I'm no neuroscientist nor anthropologist, obviously neither are you, so i'll post this and leave you to your hatin'.

www.godandscience.org...

creativity

Anthropology tells us that sophisticated works of art first appeared in the fossil record about 40,000-50,000 years ago,4 at the time that moderns humans first appeared. No other species of animal, including the apes, are able to create and understand images of art and drawing.

...snip...

personality

"We have no idea how our brains make us who we are. There is as yet no neuroscience of personality. We have little understanding of how art and history are experienced by the brain. The meltdown of mental life in psychosis is still a mystery. In short, we have yet to come up with a theory that can pull all this together." [apparently these folks didn't bother to check with produkt... who has this already figured out... i smell a nobel - Rren]

...snip...

abstract thinking

Is the human brain that much different from that of our closest "relatives," the chimpanzees? According to Daniel J. Povinelli, from the University of Louisiana's New Iberia Research Center
"Humans constantly invoke unobservable phenomena and variables to explain why certain things are happening. Chimps operate in the world of concrete, tangible things that can be seen. The content of their minds is about the observable world."7

...snip...

Chimpanzees have no clue that humans must face them in order to see. It is obvious from these experiments that chimpanzees lack even a simple understanding of how their world works, but merely react to conditioning from directly observable events.8

Other researchers have noted that chimpanzees do not understand the cause and effect of their actions. Apes will climb onto a box to reach fruit, but if the box is absent, will place on the ground beneath the fruit a sheet of paper and stand upon it.9

...snip...

body, soul, spirit

Part of what is meant by the term "in the image of God" can be found in chapters immediately following its first usage (Genesis 1) in the Bible. Both Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. Such a personal relationship is not described, nor seen, for any other animal species. It is the presence of a spirit that was instilled into humans10 that separates us from the animals. There are three kinds of life that God has created in this universe: [see small chart at link -Rren]

...snip...

according to Daniel Batson, a University of Kansas psychologist:
"The brain is the hardware through which religion is experienced. To say the brain produces religion is like saying a piano produces music."14

...snip...

Even if there were an area of the brain that might be involved in religious experiences, this idea does not prove that God is a creation of our brains. If God did create us, we would expect that He would provide a means by which we could experience Him. This area of the brain might be part of God's design to make us realize that we are more than just physical creatures. The Bible says that God has given us this knowledge of eternity, possibly involving some sort of "hard-wired" knowledge.16

moral judgements

After Adam and Eve had sinned, they became like God in that they could distinguish good from evil.17 The ability to make moral judgments is also a characteristics that is found only in humans. Even the higher apes cannot make moral judgments about the behavior of other animals. As Dr. Jerome Kagan points out in Three Seductive Ideas, "Not even the cleverest ape could be conditioned to be angry upon seeing one animal steal food from another."18 In addition, there are no non-human animal models for human pride, shame, and guilt.19

Conclusion
In conclusion, it seems likely that "in the image of God" refers to the characteristics of the human spirit and the ability to make moral judgments - things that are not found in any animal species, even those to whom we are said to be closely related. Even evolutionists are beginning to recognize the uniqueness of human beings. Dr. Ian Tattersall, in Becoming Human - Evolution and Human Uniqueness, says humans represent a "totally unprecedented entity" on Earth, and "Homo sapiens is not simply an improved version of its ancestors - it's a new concept." It is the ability to make moral judgments that convinces us of our inability to "measure up" to the intended moral standards laid down by God.20 However, it is the spirit of man that allows us to communicate with God's Spirit through Jesus Christ21 so that we can once again be in fellowship with a Holy God22 and experience the ultimate relationship in the universe.

FYI - That quote was probably a little more info than i would normally include in an off-site quote (bad form re: ATS T&C.) Typically the quote represents the gist of the page linked or speaks to a specific inquiry, ie you still need to read the page in full... i gave you the long version because of your apparent inability to click sources that may run counter to your world-view and subsequently assimilate said info, you're welcome.

Seriously, how ignorant do you have to be to literally think your any better then any other species on this planet. Face it, the human species is FAR from special. Get off your cross and use the wood to build a bridge and get over it already.

Sheeesh who pissed in your corn flakes kid? Use your soapbox to step off that high horse and come join the rest of us lesser animals... priceless

Good post Rren, Wether you believe in god or not ,to be able to discuss/debate your views in a rational and and open way says more about a persons intelligence or STUPIDITY than any comparison that is made between the human race and animals.

Perhaps product was making that statement from a purely personal point of view. I like to think my dogs pretty smart but i wont be letting him borrow the car keys to pop down to the shops.lol.

Back to the topic, i personally believe in evolution, though im sending my children to a catholic school. I would like to think that eventually they would be intelligent enough to make a choice based on their own personal experiences and needs at any particular time in their lives.

The people that tick me off are those that argue vehemently for either side without the ability to see another point of view. Sure stick to your beliefs but allow those whose beliefs are different to yours the same courtesy that you would expect.

creativity

Anthropology tells us that sophisticated works of art first appeared in the fossil record about 40,000-50,000 years ago,4 at the time that moderns humans first appeared. No other species of animal, including the apes, are able to create and understand images of art and drawing.

Animal's are incapable of art? Interesting ...

semantics.ucr.edu...

www.baliadventuretours.com...
www.elephantart.com...
abcnews.go.com...

If you need more information on art from those lowly animal's I'd be more then happy to look up more information for you.

personality

"We have no idea how our brains make us who we are. There is as yet no neuroscience of personality. We have little understanding of how art and history are experienced by the brain. The meltdown of mental life in psychosis is still a mystery. In short, we have yet to come up with a theory that can pull all this together." [apparently these folks didn't bother to check with produkt... who has this already figured out... i smell a nobel - Rren]

www.nytimes.com...
www.abc.net.au...
www.montereyherald.com...

abstract thinking

Is the human brain that much different from that of our closest "relatives," the chimpanzees? According to Daniel J. Povinelli, from the University of Louisiana's New Iberia Research Center
"Humans constantly invoke unobservable phenomena and variables to explain why certain things are happening. Chimps operate in the world of concrete, tangible things that can be seen. The content of their minds is about the observable world."

news.nationalgeographic.com...
www.enformy.com...$homosap.html
biologie.kappa.ro...
wvwv.essortment.com...

body, soul, spirit

Part of what is meant by the term "in the image of God" can be found in chapters immediately following its first usage (Genesis 1) in the Bible. Both Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. Such a personal relationship is not described, nor seen, for any other animal species. It is the presence of a spirit that was instilled into humans10 that separates us from the animals. There are three kinds of life that God has created in this universe: [see small chart at link -Rren]

I'm sure your proud of your self center way's of thinking.

according to Daniel Batson, a University of Kansas psychologist:
"The brain is the hardware through which religion is experienced. To say the brain produces religion is like saying a piano produces music."14

Or, human's are simply creative enough to come up with theories and stories on how and why life exist's. Man ... almost sound's like science! What evidence exist's that the brain is hardwired for religion? I mean REALLY hardwired. I'm sure they just wouldn't be stating something like that without even a single shred of evidence to back up the claim.

Even if there were an area of the brain that might be involved in religious experiences, this idea does not prove that God is a creation of our brains. If God did create us, we would expect that He would provide a means by which we could experience Him. This area of the brain might be part of God's design to make us realize that we are more than just physical creatures. The Bible says that God has given us this knowledge of eternity, possibly involving some sort of "hard-wired" knowledge.16

Oh ... they don't know for sure... ok nevermind.

moral judgements

After Adam and Eve had sinned, they became like God in that they could distinguish good from evil.17 The ability to make moral judgments is also a characteristics that is found only in humans. Even the higher apes cannot make moral judgments about the behavior of other animals. As Dr. Jerome Kagan points out in Three Seductive Ideas, "Not even the cleverest ape could be conditioned to be angry upon seeing one animal steal food from another."18 In addition, there are no non-human animal models for human pride, shame, and guilt.19

www.mc.maricopa.edu...
www.mc.maricopa.edu...

Conclusion ... Animal's aren't that different after all. They may not be as intelligent, but they do indeed possess many of the same trait's we USED to consider that made us human. I would feel sorely sorry for you, perhaps even pitty you, if you believe any of what you just posted off that website. Such self centered ignorance ... It's amazing what religion can bring to humanity.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Good post Rren, Wether you believe in god or not ,to be able to discuss/debate your views in a rational and and open way says more about a persons intelligence or STUPIDITY than any comparison that is made between the human race and animals.

Thanks, i'm afraid you'll be in the minority there Some of my best friends, my favorite author, and people on ATS that i have respect for, are atheists... we would both argue that each other is being naive but never stupid. I imagine that most people's online self is very different than their real life self (you know the type, loud as a motorbike but couldn't crush a grape in a food fight)... atleast i like to hope so. I have my fair share of Richard Cranium days too.

Perhaps product was making that statement from a purely personal point of view. I like to think my dogs pretty smart but i wont be letting him borrow the car keys to pop down to the shops.lol.

I can certainly see it from that perspective... although claiming that Koko's intelligence is the same as a human is disingenuous and claiming that it's man who's less intelligent is ridiculous imo.

But i did see this documentary a few years back on Discover Science Channel that was documenting the life/habits of a group of chimps (if memory serves.) Well an infant dies and the mother is so distraut that she just sat there (weeping?) holding her dead child. If i recall correctly, she refused to eat or move for days... she may have even died (man i gotta google this... i'm butchering the story here.) Anyway i remember seeing this and almost coming to tears myself over it... i can't see a "natural" reason for her to be so depressed, she certainly seemed to be having an emotional reaction to the death of her child. I'm not sure what that means... other than i don't know everything. But the mind of a man is alot different than an ape's, we don't "see" the same world... was my point.

Back to the topic, i personally believe in evolution, though im sending my children to a catholic school. I would like to think that eventually they would be intelligent enough to make a choice based on their own personal experiences and needs at any particular time in their lives.

I tried to show in the link i posted ("How I Understand Genesis") that it's ok to be a Christian and an evolutionist... which was ignored by the next couple posters who went on about the ToE debunking Christianity (to paraphrase) as if there was no reasonable counter argument. *shrug* I mean if St. Augustine said: "In the beginning were created only germs or causes of the forms of life which were afterwards to be developed in gradual course." in the 1500s (prior to any theory of evolution obviously) - how can someone say the ToE, which came along several hundred years later (and agreed with St. Augustine), debunked Scripture? If there's any argument to be had here (on topic that is) it's 'Why do Creationists Have a Problem with Evolution?' And unless the argument is over universal common ancestry it's only young-earthers who they have issue with. But i've been around here long enough to know better than get involved with this 'flavor' of argument... oh well.

Regards,
-Rren

I can certainly see it from that perspective... although claiming that Koko's intelligence is the same as a human is disingenuous and claiming that it's man who's less intelligent is ridiculous imo.

Never said that, don't put words in my mouth that were plainly never said.

Question---if humans evolved from apelike form, then why aren't we still evolving? Why aren't apes still evolving? Just a question, would like opinions.

Originally posted by catsi
Question---if humans evolved from apelike form, then why aren't we still evolving? Why aren't apes still evolving? Just a question, would like opinions.

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but what makes you think they're not?

evolution is exactly that,we are taller,fitter,live longer now than we did 500 yrs ago.evolution is not something that you will necessarily see over a small period of time(some exceptions).This is not all down to advances in medicine, nutrition etc.
Yes we are still evolving, as are most living species and those that dont evolve become extinct.Survival of the fittest.
If you were somehow able to travel into the future(give titor a call) you would be able to notice the differences between now and then.
Of course wont matter a damn if we blow ourselves to pieces.
Then begins the reign of the mighty cockroach.lol.

Why do Christians have a problem with Evolution?

I'm Christian. Roman Catholic. I have no problem with
evolution. If God chose to use evolution, that's His business.
If He didn't, then that's fine too. He can use whatever means
He wishes to make whatever He wishes.

IMHO God used Evolution to create people. I also think that
it's entirely possible that we were intelligently engineered by
other biological beings in this universe. That God used them
in the process. That's what I think probably happened.
If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and I don't care.
It's unimportant to me.

In the end, I'm here and God exhists. That's the end result.