Science is great, but what about the non-scientific smoking guns on 9/11?

The 2004 tape came out pre-election despite the fact that the US State Department tried to prevent it from being aired.

en.wikipedia.org...

According to the Agence France-Presse, U.S. diplomats in Qatar were given a copy of a videotape of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden before it aired on Al-Jazeera television and unsuccessfully sought to prevent the Arabic-language network from broadcasting it. [3] The United States State Department requested that the government of Qatar (where Al Jazeera is located) discourage the station from airing the videotape, according to a senior State Department official.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
The 2004 tape came out pre-election despite the fact that the US State Department tried to prevent it from being aired.

Your point?

I think you take things at face value too often, when you need to be looking at "OBL" 's face on that one. It's Fatty bin Laden again.



What the government overtly "tries" to do, and what they actually do covertly, can obviously be totally different.

It's just like Bush calling for a very in-depth investigation on 9/11, and then protesting and stalling and postponing and etc. for the longest time before the 9/11 Commission was even allowed to begin working.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I think you take things at face value too often, when you need to be looking at "OBL" 's face on that one. It's Fatty bin Laden again.

I like that picture because apart from the wieght difference they look identical. The differences there can be attributed to weight loss or gain (depending in the order they were taken).

Looking at this image you wouldn't think it was the same person:



But it is. OK that was due to drug use, but it's still effectivley deterioration of the body. You see similar effects with aging and stress. Being on the run from the Western world and living rough must be pretty stressful I would think. And maybe he was lucky enough to get refuge at some point and recover. Other than showing he's been living it rough it doesn't seem to prove anything to me. Maybe someone should get some higher resolution versions and feed it through a facial recognition program, not a definitive answer but they are normally pretty good and able to work around changes like weight loss/gain, facial hair, etc.

Good points agent smith.

I would like to point out that the comparison photos are also taken at different angles. It's hard to tell if this was done deliberately, much like the contrast adjusted thermite photos, or if this is just another mistake made by the "truth" movement.

It's one thing to claim that the 2001 video is sketchy, it was released by the US government and they claim to have found it in a cave.

A video released by Al-jazeera is a different matter altogether, or should we now believe that Al-jazeera is also in on this 9-11 conspiracy already composed of the entire US government, ASCE, NIST, most of the population of Washington DC, etc.

What's a "good point" about that? Did Meth morph and relocate the nose of that woman? What about the forehead? Skull?

Oh...no, it didn't. I see.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
I like that picture because apart from the wieght difference they look identical. The differences there can be attributed to weight loss or gain (depending in the order they were taken).

Just doing a quick comparison via that pic, there are differences between...

Cheekbones, whereas fatty has higher cheekbones; eyes, whereas Osama has more sunken eyes and fatty has eye sockets that extend further laterally; a thinner nose (can you attribute this to weight gain? the nose is constructed of cartilage after all and does not store fat within the structure, so far as I know).

The cheekbones alone would suggest another person, because no amount of weight loss/gain would raise someone's cheekbones like that. You can see them literally sink down into the real Osama's cheeks in that gif.

LB,

Take any Osama pics you want to compare and I could tell you which is real and which is fatty. Have fun.

[edit on 8-3-2006 by bsbray11]

No one explained why is osama wearing a ring and why is he writing with his right hand, I guess you forgot to comment on that.
No one commented on why the terorists are alive, you all forgot to comment on that also.



[edit on 8-3-2006 by pepsi78]

So, all the questions were asked and we are bickering over a ring on a finger and wieght loss/gain.

Bin Laden was sick, right? we can all agree on that. Rapid wieght loss/gain can occur during sickness so this can explain the difference simply.

The ring he has been seen wearing on many occasions in seperate pictures at seperate times. Maybe this is something that is very sentimental to him that we are not aware of. This is not proof he is not Bin Laden.

THere is also the left handed/right handed issue in the video from 2001, which even puzzled the CIA. This only further pushed the notion that he may have a double for protection.

wow. you non-conspiracy believers will believe ANYTHING can be ANYTHING, if it's the television that tells you that's what it is.

just like 'captured saddam' is not 'real saddam', and nick berg's sicko mutilators had white skin and jewelry and spoke english, and british soldiers dressed as arabs shooting at police stations as a false flag op, and the lack of moral fortitude so uneloquently illustrated at abu gharib, and an administration that has spent 1.6 BILLION on propoganda, and.....

there's no different angle. a difference in the focal length will not MORPH a face into a totally different face.

and, the most ridiculous argument yet, is that he was on the run and sick and stressed, so he GOT FAT!? and his eyebrows grew in different and changed shape? his nose got signifigantly wider?

fatty bin laden is not osama bin laden, and that video is pure, unadulterated lying propoganda, and you who defend it as genuine are showing a great willingness to 'embrace ignorance'.

p.s. smitty, there is no facial recognition program on earth that is better at facial recognition than the human brain's facial recognition program. i'm guessing you know this. facial recognition programs have not been developed to be more qualitative than human abilities, but to be more quantitative, ie. 'recognising' every single face in a crowd.

OBL had problems with his kidneys, right, and that sometimes will also affect the liver. My uncle died from liver and kidney failure, and just prior to his death, for the last 8 months, while waiting for a transplant, his face would alter appearance in a matter of days based on fluid retention. If you suddenly change 10-20 lbs and were skinny to begin with, you will notice a drastic difference, especially if viewed over time. This is not a 'strange' arguement, it is just a theory.

Originally posted by esdad71
OBL had problems with his kidneys, right, and that sometimes will also affect the liver. My uncle died from liver and kidney failure, and just prior to his death, for the last 8 months, while waiting for a transplant, his face would alter appearance in a matter of days based on fluid retention. If you suddenly change 10-20 lbs and were skinny to begin with, you will notice a drastic difference, especially if viewed over time. This is not a 'strange' arguement, it is just a theory.

Are you suggesting that Bin Laden's nose became wider and his skin became darker and his look became stupider, because he was tired or ill? Sorry that doesn’t sound logical for me especially when we consider that his shape changed back in later videos. So to justify your theory either flu miraculously did that to Bin laden or he is a shape shifting reptilian

I am trying to think of a reason better than shape shifting reptilian...

esdad71: It is known that warnings were issued based on intel of coming attacks as early as March of 2001. It is known that the US knew Bin Laden and Al-Qeada were attempting a devastating attack in the US.

So, they knew for months and STILL couldn't stop it? They warn these people on 9/10 because they knew the attack was coming? That's PRECISELY my point!

esdad71: Coincidence, meetings get cancelled all the time

Oh, but of course, it's just a coincidence.

esdad71: Members of the Bin Laden family flew out on the 20th of Sepetember, after the flying ban was lifted...blah blah blah

You cite the whitewash commission and expect me to believe that?

Ok, say you're right, this was all screened and stuff. Why is it that relatives of OBL get the go ahead, while US citizens are terrorists until proven guilty and have to give up their rights to stop the other terrorists?

esdad71: These were in place and are annual exercises.

If this is true, again, it proves my point. They were conducting ANNUAL exercises, you say, meaning that EVERY YEAR they do the same thing. Hence, it becomes routine, no?

You mean to tell me that, while doing something routine, they all of a sudden can't snap back to reality and stop what they've been ROUTINELY practicing every year to stop the real attack? Make sense to you?


esdad71: This is not true. There was confusion, lost time between the Airlines, then the FAA and then NORAD along with misreports of numerous other suspected hijackings that morning. Did you want the Air Force to start shooting planes out of the sky. The only one we were able to stop was flight 93.

No, the problem was that they took the authority to order NORAD to intercept planes from the generals and gave it to Bush and Cheney months before the attack. Besides, they track plane flights, so they would not just start randomly shooting planes, as you assert; they would intercept the planes flying off course.

esdad71: I guess you never watched the video of them getting on at Logan, or the suitcase that was found that was Atta’s. They were all known of prior to 9/11 but not matched to this plot. It has been blamed on interdepartmental non-cooperation which is why the DHS is needed for information sharing. Our government has admitted to this.

Again, they knew who the peeps were, they knew an attack was coming, and they couldn't stop it? Wait a minute...you're lying; I saw them on TV say they had NO IDEA OBL was planning to attack us with planes. You've lied twice here because you say they not only knew Bin Laden would attack and were practising for plane attacks, but they knew who his cronies were. Stop lying.

esdad71: Who? What is your definition of prominent?

Learn how to read without blinders. We have mentioned Morgan Reynolds, Cynthia McKinney, Ron Paul, and I'll add Bob Barr.

esdad71: Known to Prison planet....

Your ignorance on OBL's CIA ties is quite astounding.

esdad71: PNAC is a think tank, this is expected.

What does that mean?

We expect think tanks to lay out plans that the military follows? We expect think tanks to order the military to attack targets that are not threats? We expect think tanks to order invasions after a called-for new Pearl Harbor?

esdad71: This is another in a long list of ideas that never came to fruition, and was masterminded by disgruntled military officers. Never happened

No snit it didn't happen! That's not the point. The point is that terror attacks by the govt on America HAVE BEEN PLANNED BEFORE!!

Originally posted by esdad71
I am trying to think of a reason better than shape shifting reptilian...

why? why not just admit that it doesn't look like the same person?
why do you need for it to be bin laden?
uncomfortable with truth? you can't handle the truth?

here's some more lame excuses for you to propogate....

bin laden has a stunt double for dangerous tasks like sitting in front of a video camera.
bad makeup.
bloating from a night of hard drinking.
cortizone treatments.
heated air causing distortions.
plastic surgery which brilliantly makes the real bin laden look like a fake bin laden.
he was wearing a poorly manufactured nixon mask.

Truthseeka, I answered your questions, if you feel that it is whitewashed CIA induced delusion, fine.

I do not wear blinders. Jsut open your eyes and quit believing everything you believe in, and try to form your own opinion based on multiple research angles. Each of your posts is a semi attack to the intellect of the person that answers your questions and you don't do a very good job.

It is common knowledge to anyone that Al-qeada was a threat, going back to the 93 WTC bombing, Cole bombing, etc, and there was anaother operation in the works but the US could not break the cells and figure it out. Our own government has cited intel failures as to why 9/11 was not stopped. This was a reason for the creation of DHS.

If you choose not to believe the 9/11 commision, go ahead, but repeating the ramblings of remote control plane aficiandos and believing that OBL gets a paycheck from Langley will lead to no credibility outside of these forums.

I find it funny that you do not attempt to rebut any of the factual, proven information I have provided such as the "Bin Laden's family flown out during 9/11", or prominent gov't types come forward. Why were they not part of the 9/11 commission report? Where were all the Senators and congressman shouting from the rooftops that 9/11 was a government black op? they were part of the same commission you call bull#.


and Billybob, I think it is beer thirty bud. I am giving theory, that's all. If you want me to choose one, yes, I believe he has at least one double, just as Saddam did. I am sure that there is fear in his head knowing the entire world is looking for him.

[edit on 9-3-2006 by esdad71]

Originally posted by esdad71
I am trying to think of a reason better than shape shifting reptilian...

Well how about IT WASN'T HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Anything but what you want to hear, right?

His freaking cheekbones apparently lowered.



Suggesting those two guys are the same person isn't far off from shape-shifting reptilians; weight loss/gain doesn't move around the bones in your face! Nor is fat stored in your nose!

If the 2001 video was faked, what's the super-denial of the 2004 video being faked? Must you guys have something to cling on to, to keep believing what you believe? I think that must be it, because the 2001 and 2004 tapes obviously have the same SOB in them.

[edit on 9-3-2006 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by esdad71
So, all the questions were asked and we are bickering over a ring on a finger and wieght loss/gain.
The ring he has been seen wearing on many occasions in seperate pictures at seperate times.

Show me a picture like people showed you.
What is that thing with words with out any evidence, you know how things go here on ATS, we need facts.

Maybe this is something that is very sentimental to him that we are not aware of. This is not proof he is not Bin Laden.

Maybe? hmm i guess u'r not even sure.
Yes maybe with could be were bolth in a boat sinking.
How would you know if it's sentimental with him?where does it say, or maybe you know osama?

THere is also the left handed/right handed issue in the video from 2001, which even puzzled the CIA. This only further pushed the notion that he may have a double for protection.

So I see now it's not binladen anymore?
So anithing can be posible?



Still i asked you couple of times to respond to me on why are the terorists alive, I guess I got no aswer from you.
I got this all set up, I know what you are going to aswer I know what i'm going to say, so u'r evoding it.
Either way i'll debunk you, too sesetive for you, I guess you dont want to touch it.


[edit on 9-3-2006 by pepsi78]

From the Book
'102 minutes" by Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn
''Inside, about 25 men and women lay in a tangle of twisted metal, in absolute darkness. Someone, they were sure, would realize they were stuck and get them out. They waited. One person pulled out a laptop, switched it on to provide some light. The box that had been the elevator car seemed crushed. Maybe five or ten minutes later, when flames began to lick into the bottom of the cab, a keening began.

'' 'In the name of God,' a voice wailed. 'In the name of God. In the name of God.' ''

Here is the moment at 9:52 a.m. when the south tower collapsed: ''The voices from the 105th floor, 20 stories above the top of the impact zone, grew more urgent. One woman called 911 and said the floor was collapsing. A moment later, a man called from 106 and said a floor below was collapsing. From the 88th floor, Rick Thorpe of Keefe, Bruyette & Woods told 911 that people were passing out, and that he would break the windows.

''Calling from the 93rd floor, Greg Milanowycz spoke to his father and then to a colleague of his father's, Marcia De Leon.

'' 'The ceiling is caving,' Milanowycz said. 'The ceiling is caving.' ''

No reports of explosions, no, just that it was collapsing.

[edit on 10-3-2006 by esdad71]

here's another nonscientific smoking gun

i made it a seperate thread because it's quite a pandora's box.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Still i asked you couple of times to respond to me on why are the terorists alive, I guess I got no aswer from you.
I got this all set up, I know what you are going to aswer I know what i'm going to say, so u'r evoding it.
Either way i'll debunk you, too sesetive for you, I guess you dont want to touch it.

Any links? Which ones are still alive? I am assuming you mean the hijackers and not just terrorists in general who are still alive.


Could it be that the names are common and it's kinda like finding out a John Smith is still alive somewhere?

www.911myths.com...


More than 200 Saeed Alghamdis? This shows how unsurprising the “hijackers still alive” stories are. And how none of them yet provide proof that the person they’re referring to matches the claimed hijacker.

Another development makes this even less likely. Because if some of the named Saudis are still alive and innocent, then why has Saudi Arabia now accepted that they were involved?

The 200 Saeed's are from the Penascola Flight School. If that many attended one flight school in Florida, there must be quite a few in the rest of the world.