A question on the time line of two accounts

I have a question for you conspiracy believers on two separate accounts of time lines.

David Lim

I felt the bldg shake. I left Sirius in his kennel & responded to the mezzanine of #1 WTC to assist people coming out of the "A" stairwell. I saw bodies falling onto the Plaza & realized that I was needed on the upper floors. I proceeded up the stars giving encouragement & calming the fears of the people coming down. Those that were seriously injured I assigned to healthy personnel, directing them to the triage area. On the 27th floor, I met a man in a wheelchair with a friend. They were waiting for the crowd to clear before attempting a descent. I left them with FDNY personnel & proceeded up the "B" stairwell. This switch of stairwells later proved to be my lifesaving decision. Upon my arrival on the 44th floor, I started evacuating those on the floor towards my stairway. I heard an explosion & as I looked to my left, a fireball blew out the windows, knocking us to the ground. I knew now that we were under attack & proceeded down the stairway with my people. On the way down, we cleared floors of any remaining employees.

William Rodriguez

They continued to ascend to the 39th floor. This is as far as William got before he was turned back by the firefighters. As he began his descent he heard the plane hit the south tower.

Now my question is this:

Are these two accounts following the same time line? In other words, did Rodriguez and Lim both climb 39 and 44 floors respectively in the 15 to 20 minutes between the first and the second plane impact?

Was the fireball that Lim saw on the 44th floor, the impact of the second plane?


What do you think?


[edit on 14-2-2006 by HowardRoark]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by HowardRoark]

No, I don't believe they are. Because if you look at Lim's account he first went from WTC 2 to WTC 1's lobby, helped people out of the elevators and was there long enough to see "bodies falling onto the Plaza". He then went up the stairs, apparently stayed with the man in the wheelchair (which I remember that man's story by the way) long enough to "leave him with FDNY"

That was my objection to the William Rodriguez account.

He describes that he rescued several people before he started up the stairs with the firemen.

Yeah, I'd think there might be more objections to William's account than where he was or how much time had passed or how many lucky souls he saved before said event happened at said time....

because he swears there was a basement explosion before the plane hit WTC1.

Yeah, funny that.

What a nut job.

Wow let us pick apart one story in hundreds.
If you were on the street and came upon a
car accident, and alot of witnesses told you that X
car hit Y car and caused the driver of Y car
to die, would you later question a news report
stating that Y car caused the accident with
X car and that was the reason the driver
of Y car expired.

I take it back Howard. I think you are right...

They continued to ascend to the 39th floor. This is as far as William got before he was turned back by the firefighters. As he began his descent he heard the plane hit the south tower.

He made it back down to the hole where the front doors used to be before they were blown out. The bottoms of the elevator doors were blown partially open. He couldn't breath, his eyes burned, his leg was burned. Someone yelled: "Don't look back!" William looked back momentarily then raced for the first cover he saw - a fire truck. That is where he was found. Pulverized concrete mixed with asbestos and smoke created a dark cloud of doom. Flashlights were necessary. William received temporary medical assistance and then went to work trying to find survivors.

I think it could be the exact same time. Only the problem is what William thought was the plane hitting the second building might have been the same explosion that blew Lim off his feet. And neither one of those was the plane hitting, because as you can clearly see from William's account, WTC2 collapsed shortly thereafter. And though Lim does not refer to the collapse of WTC2 (and I don't think we want to get so technical we try to say that because he didn't refer to it, it didn't happen - do we?), he does refer to WTC1's collapse and we all know WTC2 happened before that.

Yeah, it could match up!

It could have been the plane hitting the building. I suspect that in the initial minutes between the impacts, the stairs were relatively clear. After the second impact, the exodus from the building would have been heavier and slower.

In other words, it may have been easier going up in the first 20 minutes and taken much longer to go down. Especially if they felt obliged to help others along the way.

I don't think that there was any external explosions after the second impact. With all of the cameras that were pointed at the buildings, that would have been noticed.

[edit on 14-2-2006 by HowardRoark]

Right, I don't think there were external explosions either. Lim states the explosion "blew the windows out". I took that to mean outward.

He is a little clearer in these two interviews:

"I'm not very articulate, so bear with me. It was 08:45 hrs when the first plane struck the North Tower. I locked my dog, Sirius, in his kennel and proceeded to the Plaza of #1 WTC to assist in evacuation. I noted a body that had either jumped or was thrown out a higher floor. I had never seen anything like this in my life. While calling in the DOA, another body landed 50 ft from the first. I was advised of multiple aided on the upper floors and proceeded up the "B" staircase. I stopped on the 27th floor to assist and sat with FDNY to rest before we continued. They were wearing full bunker gear & hauling a lot of equipment. I called Diane (my wife) and told her I was all right.

I made it to the 44th floor skylobby and while I directed people to the stairway, I saw the 2nd plane strike the South Tower. I was knocked off my feet by the concussion. I quickly gathered the remaining people and the firemen, and headed back down the stairs. On the way we encountered some elderly & physically handicapped persons. The fireman began dropping their equipment and carrying them down. On the 21st floor I saw three other officers and was advised of the collapse of the South Tower. We assisted another aided and kept moving down. On the 5th floor I found a Battalion Chief trying to help an injured woman. I stopped to help and we got to the 4th floor when the North Tower collapsed on top of us. Myself, six firemen from Ladder 6 and Josephine survived, only suffering minor injuries.”

www.geocities.com...

because it was now the closest
stairwell to get up. While I was there, there were still people coming down,
somewhat confused, because there were stoppages from people trying to
come by. But I just kept on telling everybody, “Down is good, keep going
down.” Because they were concerned when they saw me going up.
So right away they think, “Well he’s going up, why are we going down?” And
I remember getting up to the forty-fourth floor just as Tower Two got hit.
And the concussion knocked me to the ground and blew out some windows.

That’s when I realized that it was no longer an accident. Before that point,
most of us had felt that even though we knew it was an airplane, we couldn’t
conceive of the idea that it was done on purpose, even though it was a very
clear day

Link



[edit on 15/2/06 by JAK]

Well, I'm sorry to see the change (or clarification) in his account because now it makes him look a bit of the fibber....OR, some one who has made an erroneous conclusion as to what knocked him down.

From the NIST official documents (by the way, this first pdf is the one that finally convinced me these buildings most likely didn't fall solely due to the plane impact). All pics are from NIST docs. In this first one I've put a red line to denote the approximate location of the 44th floor of WTC 1.

wtc.nist.gov...



Mr. Lim was more than 300 feet below the impact zone of the second plane into WTC 2. But that's not where the problem with his account ends. From the same source...



Please note the above is an accurate depiction of the relative positions of the 2 towers to one another.

The second plane hit at an angle on the southeast side of the south face of WTC 2 and exited through the northeast side of the east face.

To further show the containment of the plane and fireball, we'll switch to the "final final" pdf from Mr. Shyam Sunder, also on the NIST website.

wtc.nist.gov...



Here we see the fireball only exited (as we all have seen in the videos) through the southern and eastern faces of WTC 2. (A slight amount may have come out of the eastern side of the north face.)

So not only was Mr. Lim over 300 feet below the impact zone of the second plane, he was in the opposite direction of where the fireball and debris exited WTC 2.

I'm afraid whatever blew the windows out of the 44th floor of WTC 1 and knocked Mr. Lim on his behind was NOT the second plane hitting WTC 2.


[edit on 2-15-2006 by Valhall]

Ah HA! See...I'm telling you, all the answers are in Mr. Sunders' pdf on the NIST website.





Please note that in the second slide the 1st bullet refers to a police officer who was carrying no equipment making it to the 44th floor at the time of WTC 2's collapse. That would be Mr. Lim. So, now we've established that Mr. Lim got knocked down by the collapse of WTC 2, and we know when WTC 2 collapsed in Mr. Williams account, I do believe, so why don't we try to fit the two accounts backward from that timetag.

That might be interesting!

Originally posted by Valhall
From the NIST official documents (by the way, this first pdf is the one that finally convinced me these buildings most likely didn't fall solely due to the plane impact). All pics are from NIST docs. In this first one I've put a red line to denote the approximate location of the 44th floor of WTC 1.

[edit on 2-15-2006 by Valhall]

A question Valhall. You state that you do not believe anymore the official line? Does that mean you now believe in demolitions? I would like to know more about your recent revelations. I don't mean this as an I told you so, because I myself am still on the fence. I'm just curious as to what made you believe the demolitions theory. Thanks in advance.

It isn't so much I now believe the demolition theory as much as it is I don't believe the official theory. And once you don't believe the buildings can behave as they did based on science alone, you pretty much have to consider man-made reasons they collapsed as they did.

I think Mr. Sunders' presentation is as much a factor as anything else (though there were several things that came to play at once). There was not enough structural damage, the fires were not hot enough for the short length of time and then this fatal statement here by Sunders'

"No structural component, however, was subject to intense fires for the entire period of burning."


That and the fact that the top of WTC2 went as far as a 20 degree angle and then some how managed to right itself and fall straight down. I actually remember that from the night of 9/11 when they were replaying the videos and thinking "now how the heck did that not fall on over?" But hadn't thought about it much until I started reading through all the NIST documents and hearings.

[edit on 2-15-2006 by Valhall]

Valhall,

It's good to have a fellow engineer disagree with the official line. I have gotten into fights at bars, lost at least 2 friends, and people think I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist just because I don't take what is fed to me as the truth. By the way, about the 2 friends I have lost, one works for a senator on Capitol Hill and the other is retired from NSA. No wonder they will not talk with me anymore about 9-11. Still, I'm glad another engineer on here at least agrees that something just doesn't add up. If you're wondering, I'm a civil engineer. I have a structural background but haven't used my structures classes in over 10 years, so I'm a little rusty. Nice talking with you.

edit: Sorry Howard for getting off topic and highjacking your thread.

[edit on 15-2-2006 by Griff]