Bush and Clinton. The Two Headed Coin.

There has been a lot of distraction on the board lately when it comes to the issues that we are facing today. When discussing issues concerning Bush, some that support him will bring up things from past administrations to justify what he's doing. The reverse can be said about Clinton threads.

What's wrong with this? To start with, it's off topic. Secondly, it obscures the issue at hand, nothing is really being discussed or resolved. No ignorance denied, it's embraced.

1- The Justification.

Let's look at it this way. Last week Joanie went into Mom's purse for her brush. Dad doesn't even go there. Joanie gets busted and she's in trouble. The following week Jannie goes into Mom's purse for lipstick. She gets busted and her reply to Mom is, "Well Joanie went into your purse last week". Wow, do you think Mom's going to say, "You're right, on your way child?" Hardly, It doesn't work this way. Jannie's in trouble too. So why when discussing issues on presidents do some use this tactic? I believe it's a smokescreen.

2- The Smokescreen.

People believe that they have a choice when they vote and defend their choice, sometimes vehemently. Consider that you don't really have a choice, remember the title of this topic. It's a 2 headed coin. What were those used for anyways? To trick people. This works very well. This is also where the smokescreen comes in. Do you really have a choice? Personally the only real difference I can see between the past 2 Administrations is the Clinton was better at concealling The Agenda. I don't think it could be more appearent than in the last election. So, what's the problem?

3_ The Problem.

The problem with this is, we're so busy argueing who did what continually, we're NOT discussing the real issues, like what they are doing to the country and the world. They win, the coin succeeds. Now if we start concentrating on the issues, just the issues, we may find some solutions. Ignorance IS denied.

What say you, fine members of ATS, are you up for the challenge?

consider yourself appualded

This is the MAJOR peeve I have with the two party system.....if your man gets caught running naked through the boy scout jamboree.....never mind, just bring up the "goat incedent" concerning the the OTHER patrys man.

After all, thieving, lying, treason, murder, rape, etc is just fine as long as you can point out the OTHER party is doing it too.

Intrepid - Amuk ...

... couldn't agree more!

All too often we see threads, with valid topics of concern, where the discussion has resorted to party politics and focuses more on," Who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar last?".

Aside from deflecting discussion away from the thread topic, and the core issue(s) it may be addressing, our attentions are then directed away from the fact that the damn cookie jar is still being raided. Shouldn't our focus remain more on that which continues ... ?

Thanks for the post, Intrepid! Good points ALL!

I couldn't agree more...

To oppose one administration or the other either makes you a demon neocon or an unpatriotic democrat.

I am neither...and while I have opposed certain policies from BOTH administrations, I have nonetheless predictably been called both names.



It gets very old.... particularly, when no one seems willing to admit that things are seriously broken with our political system. Intellectual dishonesty is now the norm. A few perpetrate their egregious lies, while the vast majority sit back and are happy to consume all they dish out.

How either side thinks America can have a future without the "other half" is beyond me.





[edit on 10-2-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
I am neither...and while I have opposed certain policies from BOTH administrations, I have nonetheless predictably been called both names.

during the last election on this board I was called, withen minutes of each other, on two different posts, a Neo-Nazi Bush lover and a commie liberal Kerry lover.....

I voted for Badnarik.....

Intrepid,

I also completely agree.
As a registered republican I use to think the GOP stood for something.
Now I see thanks to ATS, loyality to any party or ideology is stupid.
A pig is still a pig even if it is wearing lipstick and nice summer frock.

Some of my friends call me disloyal. What does loyality to those that care nothing about you say about the followers?

I agree Intrepid, and I call it the blame game since nothing get's resolved and allows the facade to continue. No one is directly held accountable, irresponsibility escalates, and no one gains the ability of introspection.

When a partisan butt-kisser sees his affiliation being blamed, the typical sub-intellectual reponse is to caste off said blame and try shoehorn it into the opposition's boots, which usually comes right back at them in the same manner....ad infinitum.

From a middle ground or independent perspective you would think both parties are absolute"whacked out of their mind" nutjobs and have no intention of comprehending the macroview/big picture or wanting to seek a solution. Two egomaniacs trying to see who can fart the loudest and the whole room ends up smelling like faecal matter.


Look at the luddites fight, George!

Well the ruse is on us, since the administration/power holders want to keep us bickering and in a polarized mode. If we actually did drop the blind rhetoric and habitual finger pointing, they'd risk that we would focus on them as a whole. We'd then have more time to to start demanding accountability from them. We'd discover they have been playing us as fools and rubes, and that would end their reign of skulduggery.

Nice to see I am not the only one out here with these views, Intrepid

Let's hope it's contagious.

[edit on 10-2-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
From a middle ground or independent perspective you would think both parties are absolute"whacked out of their mind" nutjobs and have no intention of comprehending the macroview/big picture or wanting to seek a solution. Two egomaniacs trying to see who can fart the loudest and the whole room ends up smelling like faecal matter.

I have noticed the smell for a very long time.... :shk:

Intrepid, I agree wholeheartedly with what you had to say. I've been saying this for years out in the real World, but people out there are too ignorant to listen.

A smokescreen is a very effective means to cloud the issues, the pun was intended there too. Stop paying attention to the meaningless dribble, & keep the main things in the forefront. Keeping concentrated on the horse puckey the Politicians are feeding you, is exactly what they want. So, you can't see the hands working behind the scenes.

This is Divide & Conquer at it's best, & it works, because the ignorant people don't know what that is, a weapon. If you take away the weapon, it cannot be used against you.

Has it come as a suprise that none of the hardline Republicans or Democrats have posted here defending the pratice? It seems like they would I see it used every day here

Originally posted by intrepid
What's wrong with this? To start with, it's off topic. Secondly, it obscures the issue at hand, nothing is really being discussed or resolved. No ignorance denied, it's embraced.

I think this spills onto ATS thanks to the mainstream media. Network news in general has stopped reporting only the facts. Now it seems that "news" personalities are more important than the issues themselves. MSM today seems to be about political cheerleading instead of reporting. Not only will a person be completely loyal to a political party but they will also be loyal to a particular network. Someone will listen to these types and then parrot what they have to say on to ATS. Where is the critical thinking? We are just listening to what an entertainer has to say on TV and then act like it is our own ideas.
This really goes against the spirit of ATS.

Originally posted by Amuk
Has it come as a suprise that none of the hardline Republicans or Democrats have posted here defending the pratice? It seems like they would I see it used every day here

No, there's nothing here for them to say, really.

Originally posted by Umbrax
I think this spills onto ATS thanks to the mainstream media. Network news in general has stopped reporting only the facts. Now it seems that "news" personalities are more important than the issues themselves. MSM today seems to be about political cheerleading instead of reporting.

And if they're not cheerleading, they are telling us what THEY want us to know.
Or, you get someone like Lou Dobbs going on and on about illegal aliens, the border issue, the loss of jobs. But there is never any concrete ideas for a change or a solution.


[edit on 10-2-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

intrepid Its a shame I cant give you a WATS vote.
What can I say ?
Not much apart from the fact I whole hearty agree with the sentiments on this thread.

One of the major problems that I have run into is that when a person gets nice and snug in their little box with a nice, narrow point of view that doesn't expose them to the inconvenience of having to process ALL of the facts, their world becomes so limited that they must make assumptions about the outside world. One of the assumptions they love to make is that everyone else is as hopelessly shallow as they are.

This results in people sometimes misunderstanding when the 2-headed coin is pointed out to them.
For example, a certain member might be on a nice roll about how Bush did this that and the other against our rights, and therefore Republicans are evil.
Now I might point out that Clinton did this and that, if maybe not the other, and that, as I often like to point out, we really have 1 party in two halves. (Hint- if Republicans are Nationalists and Democrats are Socialists- what is America's one party?)

Anyway, a certain few don't hear anything but "Clinton too"- you show them that there's another head on the back side of the coin, and they want to measure who's "head" is bigger, seemingly not even realizing the implications for the upcoming coinflip in November.

It's a disturbingly resilient strain of the virus- reproof invites a second retaliatory error.

What about those who hoesntly like who they voted for and what they did?

Originally posted by Odium
What about those who hoesntly like who they voted for and what they did?

Depending on who they are, where they live, who they voted for, and what is important to them, it's highly possible that they just don't read the news very much.

Especially in a 2 party system, it's really almost impossible for anyone to be completely happy with their choice, because to rally such a large base a party is going to have to compromise issues that are disagreed upon within their constituency.

Bump.

Why? Because it isn't in my Favorites anymore.

Now it is.

Well, if you consider the political process itself a winner, then sure. I mean hey, it beats having to put up with a king and all that. (unless you're one of those who believes we're still the property of Great Britain. Then you're REALLY out of luck!)

I agree. You can't justify a wrong doing because someone else has done it. If someone kills your friend, you can't go out and kill the murderer It makes you a murderer now also, and you will be charged accordingly.

~! | ! '

Originally posted by Toelint
Well, if you consider the political process itself a winner, then sure. I mean hey, it beats having to put up with a king and all that. (unless you're one of those who believes we're still the property of Great Britain. Then you're REALLY out of luck!)

I think you missed the point, you seem to think you have a choice in your political proccess. WHOEVER wins answers to someone other than the voter. THAT'S my point. Same coin, different sides.