Freedom of Speech and Islam

Hmm... shoudn't we get a balance in the sets of ideals we pertain to live by?

We are all shouting on about locking up terrorists, people who promote radical Islam and spout offensive anti-semetic/US/homophobic rhetoric in the name of Islam...

...and then become bastions of freedom of speech when it is distasteful comments/cartoons about Islam when it is the West being offensive.

Dont get me wrong (famous last words here at ATS), while I found the cartoons (the real ones that is) in vbad taste and a little stupid considering the international tensions at play, I do not condone the overblown reaction by many of the more radical muslim polity... it has been blown totally out of proportion. But I think we need to be more consistant.

If you turn round and say 'I can make offensive comments about you, your religion and the way I see your culture because of freedom of speech' surely that same right means that someone can say in response 'Well I think for those beliefs something unpleasant should happen to you'... the thing about 'inalieable' rights as we like to call them is that you cannot pick and choose who they apply to and in what circumstances.

If, on the other hand, you go to the other end of the arguement, and say 'People don't have the right to say what they honestly believe if it is harmful to race relations, upsetting or could encourage illegal behaviour (like terrorism)' then you cannot then say 'But this doesnt apply to a culture who gets offended more than ours does about negetive depictions of god; they are just being silly.' It is a painful double standard.

I personally believe that laws shouldn't govern things like speech and beliefs... society will let you know what is generally frowned upon and will attack it subsequently... people generally will speak out against blatant racism in the media, much in the same way as people will get offended at blasphamy in other societies and let the world know about it...

But if any system of freedoms or beliefs is to work, it needs to be consistant...

Q

[edit on 10-2-2006 by Qoelet]

Absolutely correct Qoelet.

Sadly consistancy in these matters is often very lacking.

I also find it going completely unremarked and very interesting that the editor behind publishing the cartoons has written favourably and met Daniel Pipes (one of the current 'thinkers' behind the Straussian neocon ideology) and proponent of the insanely dangerous (not to mention fascist) 'clash of civilisations' idea.

"Freedom of Speech and Islam"


OOOH!!! I like this game. OK, ill try:

Hot and Cold

Up and Down

Left and Right

Black and White

Light and Dark

New and Old


That was fun, how did I do?

Man I love those games...

but seriously, the Clash of Civilisations theory is exactly the kind of thing that the feet stomping about freedom of speech in Denmark and France looks to promote. This is ironic as if you think about it, freedom of speech should be an ideal that enables us to overcome cultural differences of opinion and values, not promote them. Otherwise you're just saying 'We have freedom of speech, and you don't, so you're just crap', as opposed to the old Voltaire quote about hating what one says but defending their right to say it...

I really do hate radical Islamist propaganda (as do soooo many UK moderate Muslims, who are appearing in the UK media more and more over the last few days to say so) but I personally can cope with the idea that they exist... and I would rather see them out and about so I knew what they were saying, rather than finding out about in the aftermath of some horrific event... you cant simply challange ideas with draconian laws and the heckler & koch

Q


[edit on 10-2-2006 by Qoelet]

[edit on 10-2-2006 by Qoelet]

Originally posted by skippytjc
"Freedom of Speech and Islam"


OOOH!!! I like this game. OK, ill try:

Hot and Cold

Up and Down

Left and Right

Black and White

Light and Dark

New and Old


That was fun, how did I do?

Brilliantly as ever, contributing to the debate in an intelligent and rational way...

but I didnt see any explicit reference to why we should hate/fear muslims, especially if you are American...

losing your touch skippy

Q

[edit on 10-2-2006 by Qoelet]

Originally posted by Qoelet

Brilliantly as ever, contributing to the debate in an intelligent and rational way...

but I didnt see any explicit reference to why we should hate/fear muslims, especially if you are American...

losing your touch skippy

Q

Why would we hate/fear Muslims? Those are your words.

I am only afraid of the Radical Muslims who are trying to kill me. They have already killed some of us and are trying like the dickens to finish the job. The only issue I have with the rest of the Muslims in the world are that they could care less that some of their own are terrorist extremists that kill anybody who does not share their belief. Only moderate Muslims can control extreme Muslims, not me.

And Q, I am ashamed that you are one of those people that assume that I speak of all Muslims. That’s actually part of the problem: Islam assumes that any criticism of Islam or of individuals within Islam is criticism against all of Islam. And that’s not only ignorance, its a form of racism.

And that brings us back to the topic: Not only is it just OK for Islam not to accept free speech within Islam, free speech is not permitted anywhere apparently.

I am not governed by Islam, and Islam is not governed by me. So why are there Islamists looking to kill me for what I think or say? I have yet to kill a Muslim for their beliefs or march in the streets against them. But how many Muslims can say the same about non Muslims? Fewer and fewer every day...

I have said this before: Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist terrorists don’t worry me, but Muslim ones do. Islam better figure them out soon before the West does what it needs to do to defend itself.


[edit on 10-2-2006 by skippytjc]

Originally posted by skippytjc

Why would we hate/fear Muslims? Those are your words.

I am only afraid of the Radical Muslims who are trying to kill me.

Lock your doors... I'm sure they're watching you!

The only issue I have with the rest of the Muslims in the world are that they could care less that some of their own are terrorist extremists that kill anybody who does not share their belief. Only moderate Muslims can control extreme Muslims, not me.

There are plenty of moderates (muslims) in the UK at least who would take serious issue with this... there was a good article in last weeks Economist which shows the diverging beliefs and different stances of radical and moderate Islam would maybe clear up some misconceptions you have regarding Islam, radical and otherwise...

And Q, I am ashamed that you are one of those people that assume that I speak of all Muslims.

Well I'm sorry, but your last post (old/new light/dark etc.) and others previous to this really helps your arguement there! Don't make/imply wild generalisations in jest and then go 'ohh but I didn't mean ALL muslims... ohh I'm soo ashamed!'...

Thats actually part of the problem: Islam assumes that any critism of Islam or of indeviduals within Islam is critism against all of Islam. And thats not only ignorance, its a form of racism.

IS THIS A GENERALISATION?? Hmmm, I think so. There are plenty of muslims that do not believe this... when you say 'Islam assumes...' who are YOU talking about... Sunnis? Shia? Sufi? Radicals? Moderates?

And that brings us back to the topic: Not only is it just OK for Islam not to accept free speech within Islam, free speech is not permitted anywhere apparently.

did you read my comments or did you just jump on the title with your 'little game'?

I am not governed by Islam, and Islam is not governed by me. So why are there Islamists looking to kill me for what I think or say?

I think you take the whole thing rather personally...

I have yet to kill a Muslim for their beliefs or march in the streets agaisnt them.

reassuring to know...

But how many Muslims can say the same about non Muslims? Fewer and fewer every day...

hmmm... another un-substanciated generalisation? You decide...

Do you think that the majority of muslims were out over the last week protesting? I don't really think so, just look at the numbers. Looks far more like these protest were orchastrated and attended by certain radical groups... particularly in the Arab countries (if most of damascas was out for blood because of these cartoons.. it would really have been a bloodbath)

I have said this before: Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, Budhist terrorists dont worry me, but Muslim ones do. Islam better figure them out soon before the West does what it needs to do to defend itself.

Again.. who is 'Islam' in this instance? Who are you talking about??? And will this 'Islam' be the target of the West's 'doing what it needs'?

*sigh*...

Well I'm sorry you're ashamed of me... but I think I'll manage to get to sleep tonight...

Q

[edit on 10-2-2006 by Qoelet]

Freedom of speech is a basic right. People have the right to say whatever they like and I have the right to disagree. When people voice their opinions via writing, cartoons or speech nobody has the right to kill them for it. That being said I don't always agree with what is said but I will defend the right of that individual to say it. How about we start a trend where we accept that others have the right to their beliefs and we have the right to ours and we also have the right to disagree.

I would put it that way:

I can understand the anger of Muslims.
I grant Muslims the right, even the need, to peacefully express their disgust.

But until Muslim societies grant to other faiths the same tolerance and respect they are now violently demanding, my sympathies are limited.

How about a church in Saudi Arabia....or a Synagogue in the GazaStrip as a start, then.

ummm what do you want muslims to do?
kill radical muslims well they are doing it as we speek example in iraq they are catching more then 10 terorist evry day terorist who are trying to kill there own brother muslims. The Muslims who dont believe in Al quade As for the terorist or brothers of Al quade they are doing the same thing doing to muslims as they are doing to western setting bombs off in buildings EVEN in mosks.
Beheading christians, jews, iraqis, americans, muslims you name it.
now lett me tell you something most of you dont no, 90% of terorist are jonger then 30 you no y?
Because there minds can be change sides very quikly they say to them,
"Man do it you ll get 70 virgins in heaven you will drink wine allll the time evry were you looke there are beutifal girls"
Plus they give them somekind of pill that doesnt lett there mind work very good for an hour or 3 so that they dont chicken out at the last moment.
they dont try doing that to people who are older because they no whats wrong and whats good.

I have to say that those people dont know #. They are fanatical idiot religious freaks and need to be removed from society. Human's need a better way of life and they just fuel the fires constantly. Its time for some peace and quiet

Originally posted by Riwka
I would put it that way:

I can understand the anger of Muslims.
I grant Muslims the right, even the need, to peacefully express their disgust.

But until Muslim societies grant to other faiths the same tolerance and respect they are now violently demanding, my sympathies are limited.

How about a church in Saudi Arabia....or a Synagogue in the GazaStrip as a start, then.

Well said.

1-liner by TC

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

yeah I would love to see that try and happen LOLOL

1-lined by TC

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Examples of censorship in the UK based upon the potential to cause offence based upon religious grounds -

1) Popetown :

BBC Three has decided not to show a cartoon set in a fictional Vatican over concerns it would offend Catholics.

The channel's controller said the comic impact of Popetown did "not outweigh the potential offence it will cause".

Taken from BBC Site.


2) Jerry Springer Opera :

Major retail chains have bowed to pressure from a tiny fringe Christian group by withdrawing copies of a DVD of Jerry Springer: The Opera from stores around the UK.

Woolworths and Sainsbury have both taken the unprecedented step of removing the film from shelves because of "customer" concerns about the content of the musical, released three weeks ago. Sainsbury has admitted it received just 10 complaints.

Taken from Independent Site (Notice how a small group can have such a large impact).


3) Behzti :

A theatre yesterday bowed to pressure from violent religious activists by cancelling the run of a play depicting rape and murder in a Sikh temple.

Two days after protesters smashed windows and tried to storm the stage at the Birmingham Repertory Theatre, its executive director said that, faced with a repetition of the trouble, he could not guarantee the safety of his staff or the audience.

This is thought to be the first time a play in Britain has been halted during its run by violent religious protests and raises the question of freedom of speech.

Taken from Daily Telegraph Site.


It is important to note, before jumping upon the bandwagon that declares free speech to be anathema to Islam/Muslims, that censorship based upon the possibility of causing offence to members of a religious community also happens in Western society.

Originally posted by Riwka
I would put it that way:

I can understand the anger of Muslims.
I grant Muslims the right, even the need, to peacefully express their disgust.

But until Muslim societies grant to other faiths the same tolerance and respect they are now violently demanding, my sympathies are limited.

How about a church in Saudi Arabia....or a Synagogue in the GazaStrip as a start, then.

I have to be honest, I was really talking about FoS in the west... it is naiive to talk about it in many middle-eastern countries, when you barely have any accountable government or free press (on this last one I count Israel as well, but one out of two is still much better than neither... and it is a little understandable considering the military situation). My hope is that by demonstrating coherant and consistant principles, you can demonstrate through example the benefits... slagging off angry and outspoken radicals but believing they shouldnt be able to do the same (or worse) actually gives them ammunition in the arguement that secular philisophical beliefs are inferior through inherent double standards...

and who wants to give radical Islam ANY kind of legitimate argument against secualr democratic ideals? Not me... so we in the West need to step up as much as anyone else, and maybe try to make things less hard on ourselves. It's all very well for the Danes to poke fun at Islam and the global geopolitical realities at present... but living in an ACTUAL multi-cultural society, I understand that I'll get grief if I start going around slagging off Marcus Garvey... let alone muhammed... so I think having an understanding of what your freedom to speak about will result in is just as an important factor of the right. If you can take the heat.. speak on!

Q

Originally posted by KhieuSamphan
It is important to note, before jumping upon the bandwagon that declares free speech to be anathema to Islam/Muslims, that censorship based upon the possibility of causing offence to members of a religious community also happens in Western society.

VERY true...

Q

1-lined by TC

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by skippytjc
"Freedom of Speech and Islam"


OOOH!!! I like this game. OK, ill try:

Hot and Cold

Up and Down

Left and Right

Black and White

Light and Dark

New and Old


That was fun, how did I do?

you forgot to add "you're either with us or with the terrorists"

Of course there are examples of this in Western society, but do you see these groups rioting, destroying buildings because of it? No. Its the manner at which the group behaves, that dictate how they are percieved, and rightfully so. Actions speak louder than words.

I think people forget that most of the demonstrations that were in the West were largely peaceful... even if they had placards saying pretty nasty things.. (but then has anyone been to a BNP or NF rally? I faced down a few when I was inthe ANL in the early 90s and it wasnt much better)...

People whipping up a violent mob in Afghanistan or Gaza? Never! I thought these places were law-n-order-tastic!

Q

Originally posted by Qoelet


I have to be honest, I was really talking about FoS in the west...

ok - you mean the interpretation of "freedom of speach" those Muslims who demonstrated e.g. in London demanded for themselves?




Some of the placards talked about killing.

That might be incitement to murder, at least I think so.





[edit on 10-2-2006 by Riwka]

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]