onboard hydrogen

a thought occured to me recently if only a small percentage on power from an internal combustion engine goes to the ground,and after the initial startup and battery charge the altenator does very little work,how about using the surplus electric current from the altenator to run a small onboard hydrogen seperator with either a small reserve or direct injection with no reserve to boast milege or if proved efficent enough to run engine using the gasoline only to start the process.i unsterstand our basic understanding of thermodynamics but it just seems that a balance could be achived that would at least significatly improve mileage.id would love to hear from anyone with some thoughts but instead of trying to find a way to shot the idea down maybe lets see if we can make it work the potetial is awesome


thanks Darrin

I've been working on this one lately.
I made a "jar" out of PVC pipe, inside the jar are alternating plates of stainless steel seperated by nylon spacers. Fill the jar with water to just above the plates and add a bit of salt. When you apply 12 volts DC current you get quite a nice stream of bubbles coming off the plates.
If you take a small piece of aluminum and let it rest in the bottom of the jar your output will almost double, but I don't know why.
I put this on a lawn mower, blade removed, pulley in it's place, added an alternator and a car battery and it actually runs with no gasoline!
I think you could "gang" these together and run a car, but I haven't tried that yet. (it's 20 deg. F here)
I'm also trying different frequencies in place of the direct DC, it looks promising at the present time.
I have a 3 cylinder Geo-Metro that I want to try it on this summer.

how did you start it. you must have used ether or gasoline

A shot of starting fluid in the carb and it started on the first pull.

I didn't invent anything here. It's all been done before, reading about it on the net is what made me want to try it.
I still think there is a "magic" frequency that will improve the output.
Most of the other experimenters like to keep their secrets because they think they're going to make millions.
I don't think anyone is going to get rich from this because of the suppression that's been going on for years with this kind of stuff.
The ones that will make the most money are the mechanics that offer to install it.

Hey Beerguy,
I think there is a magic frequency too!
Quick question about your experiment...
did you every try to vibrate the jar using
a speaker ? Just thought that might increase
output of hydrogen. ergo vibrating water
and maybe giving the atoms a little more
energy. But thats newtonian and im pretty
sure that its operating on quantum physics.

PS: What frequency are you using ?
60hz from house socket i think.

Just for kicks, I attached a lamp cord to the jar and plugged it in. The water looked like it was boiling for a second then the fuse blew.
I've been mostly trying around 42800 HZ, but I need a bigger power amplifier. After I build the more powerful amplifier I'll try lots more frequencies, even the lower ones around 60HZ.
I won't dismiss the speaker trick, but I think it might need to be in the ultrasonic range if you're using sound waves to jostle the water.

I wish there were more people fooling around with this stuff.

What is the theory behind different frequencies (is this AC frequency or a DC pulse?) producing different levels of output? As I understand it, the electrolysis of water is most efficient at lower power levels. If the increase in output is accompanied by a corresponding increase in power draw on the supply, you aren't really accomplishing anything, regardless of the frequency.

Also, if the current is AC, each plate will produce a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, making it impossible to keep the two separate which is undesirable because the mixture is highly explosive. I'd think you would want to keep them separate until they are mixed in the engine, otherwise a stray spark could detonate the entire apparatus.

Saltman, There is hearsay evidence that a certain frequency will allow the water to seperate in a much more efficient manner.
The power consumption doesn't matter much as long as the alternator running the engine can handle it.
The mixture of O2 and H is known as Browns' Gas and it's okay to have them together as long as it's all contained. A stray spark can't happen accidentally inside a closed system (Faraday Effect).

You could argue that a spark plug is inside a closed system and it sparks,,, and you'd be exactly right. The key word is "accidentally", the spark plug is designed to work that way.

Just wondering if the virbrations can be linked into the virbratiosn for example that cause water to heat up in a microwave ??? Its just that wthe water molecules resonate at a certain frequency, maybe find some frequencies at which water resonates and this might help.

Also, what you are producing with the electrolysis is just hyrdrogen and oxygen right? Apparently this gas mixture you have created is not like normal oxygen and hydrogen. I once heard something about browns gas? Well anyway they apparently can use it to weld different metals together and it can melt tungsetn, however the flame is not 'hot' and the energy is actually coming from electrical charge. Im not sure, but anyway the thing with the Al at the bottom is weird? I didnt think it could catalyse the reaction? Anyway dont store too much of the stuff...and dont smoke either.

Shakeyjc, that's kinda the way I look at it too,,, the resonant frequency.

Brown's Gas, weird stuff,,, it will melt tungsten but not burn your hand.

Anyway dont store too much of the stuff...and dont smoke either.

I don't store any of it, too dangerous. "Make it on demand" is the Holy Grail.

Not really sure about doing this, but have you tried breathing it in? Its better than helium. Not quite as safe though, one minute speaking in a high pitch voice, next minute boom.

I'm gonna make some Hydrogen sometime. We made some by electrolysis at the school i was at last year, and filled baloons with it for an open evening. It was fun to say the least, loud explosions too. I'm not too sure about adding Hydrogen to petrol or anything like that.

Umm, what about adding salt or something - increasing the conductivity of the water? Would this help at all? I'm pretty sure it would as you would be increasing the current (by lowering resistance) and making electrons far more readily available - watch it though - for example you do not want to be short circuiting a 12v car battery.

If this aluminium is a catalysist, maybe cut it up and stuff and make lots of small slices of it and put that in, becasue if it is somehow catalysing the reaction (maybe there is a potential difference and current going through the aluminum at the bottom and it is electrolysing more efficiently), then you would increase the surface area and increase the rate of reaction - if it is a catalyst. Try an acid too, such as vinegar, maybe try to see what the effect is in changing the concentration of hydrogen ions? Do you have any other metals to try? Plantinum might work, but thats expensive. Changing the temperature may have some effect? Heat causes the molecules to vibrate in specific ways, and maybe this energy will persuade the hydrogen and oxygen to split?

I have been reading about this a little. There are things in the natural worls that maybe we can take advice from (as usual). Plants effectiviely split oxygen and hydrogen from water during photosynthesis. They do this by producing electricty ( i think) from absorbing light energy, and converting it. I think they use chlorophyll, which is soluable in water and i think it does this as it contains metal. Im not too sure about this, but it may produce ideas.

Shakeyjc, I wouldn't breath it, accidents can happen all too easily.
A physics teacher in high school told me that you can't fill a balloon with hydrogen because the atoms are so small they go right through the balloon. I responded by telling him that the oxygen atoms plug the holes and the hydrogen can't get out. You're not starting with a balloon in a vaccuum, there is air in there before you put the hydrogen in it ,,,, he never brought it up again.
I always add salt to my electrolite.
I like your idea about increasing the surface area of the aluminum. I'll do that in my next set up.
I'm trying not to use many chemicals or external heat just to see if it can be kept simple. If "simple" doesn't work, then that's my next step.

what you are looking for is called plasmatron and patented by gm
it does work search the word you will find efficencies listed.

they used gas as the source of hydrogen not water

Don't use salt in the water, you produce hydrogen gas and chlorine gas. Instead, use baking soda to produce hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. It does a good job. I never heard the aluminum deal, but you better be careful or you could short the device and cause it to explode. Yes it can explode even if it is closed. Just think, you have a perfect ratio of hydrogen to oxygen and all you need is a spark. If the aluminum comes in contact with the plates, IT CAN EXPLODE.