Does a beings perceived intelligence reflect its worth?

It seems on this planet, physical slavery is no longer an accepted practice among the majority of civillised people. This applies even more so concerning the abhorent subject of cannibalism.
This is a good thing. No doubt most will agree.

Unfortunately these "unacceptable practices" appear to be very acceptable with regard to how many people view our friends in the animal kingdom.

Many animals are bought and sold, held captive,forcefully seperated from loved ones, sheared, skinned, experimented on and systematically slaughtered for human consumption.

As far as I can tell, animals can think, feel pain, they have emotions, they have instincts, they have memory, they get sick, they get hungry, they get cold, they even bleed red blood and die like the rest of us.

The relatively lucky ones are pets to loving owners.

I wonder how a superior flesh eating intelligence would view us. Would they see a race of primative beings to be nurtured and guided to greater understanding or see us in the same way as many humans view cattle.

I suppose it depends on which side of the spiritual spectrum they lean towards.

There are alot of differences between humans and animals. For starters, animals dont feel emotion the same way as we do, i wouldnt hold the same for primates though. I rattlesnake that kills a mother eagle does not have any regret that the young will perish in the nest. It just satisfies its instinct to survive and kill or be killed.
One may get confused such as when you shout at your dog for being bad and it seems sad sorry. This is only because it familarises the tone of your voice with pain or discomfort such as when it was being house trained. Not all of this can be explained such as when a dog approaches you and comforts you in your time of need. This could also only mean it knows if it does that it will receive grooming and attention.
We are the only organisms on this planet that have a consience, enjoy music, have religion and make choices that ultimately would not ensure our survival or procreation - such as taking a bullet for someone else u barely know.

Depsite us being varsely different from other animals we must still respect life and cannot simply treat animals as a piece of meat. It is our duty as superior life forms to watch over all others but at the same time ensuring our own survival which often leads to hard choices.

I believe animals are more complex in their thought processes than many people realize. Some more than others certainly.
Not merely robots driven by primative instinct like the need to eat, procreate and physically survive.
But assuming they are, aren,t the three above mentioned primative instincts the same ones that largely drive the human race?

Can you say for certain no animal has a concience merely from external observation?

Can you say for certain no animal can appreciate music? Imagine playing heavymetal music with corresponding aggressive sounding vocals as opposed to a soothing mild classical piece at home in your lounge room with your pet cat resting on a chair. I'm sure the cat at very least would have a preferece internally and quite probably react outwardly. I'm also quite confident that I'd know its preference.

As for not feeling emotions the way we do. Many animals seem to display many of the same idiotic foolish emotions that we humans display: anger, lust, pride, rejection,fear, possessiveness,selfishness.
Also emotional love, happines, joy etc. are all in evidence when one watches a wildlife documentary such as one about a pride of lions in Africa.

We are vastly different when considering the various physical forms. Many animal are just as different physically to other animal species.

I've asked myself this question many times as well... which is why it bothers me to eat meat. What if giant aliens from another world had a taste for human? On one hand, we couldn't blame them because we eat animals, but on the other hand, animals aren't as concious as we are.

Animals are almost all instinct based, which is actually quite similar to robots. Give just about any animal a choice, and it will choose selfishly, based on it's programming.

However, certain animals do show selfless and loving behaviour, such as dogs and primates.

My opinion: eating most types of meat (like cows) isn't really evil. However, it still bothers me a bit and I'm hoping to eventually be a full-time herbivore.

I often hear this assumption that animals act on instinct alone too. How do they know for sure? Has anyone asked them? There may be many animals that are just as intelligent, or perhaps more so, than ourselves.

If their was some animal more intelligent than us, we would know.

Why would we know? Do other less intelligent animals know we are more intelligent than them?

what constitutes a intelligent being/animal??????
a shark goes pepoling as we go shark fishing,
a buzzard feeds where he see's a chance.
a intelligent being of the power of thought. has the ability to differentiate
between danger and saftey,
the smart survive, the dumb fall by the wayside.
all animals/beings have a degree of intelligence.
nature has many that will neck a human, just ,some of us are smarter, or quicker than them.
every animal/being on the planet, eats,#s,farts,breathe's,copulate's,
and(2 a degree) hunts its lower too gain sustance and survive.
sheep arent called floss or dolly, they are part of the food chain,
chook's aint clara or harriet, they is part of the food chain,
and if there is a being/animal that has a likin for human flesh,
they wanna be pretty good at what they do,
cause i;ll put up a hell of fight before i go down.
the strong surviv, the weak fall by the wayside.

It's true, 'survival of the fittest' does appear to be the rule of thumb on this planet and probably this universe.
You can look at the obvious brutality of 'mother' nature and think "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" and go on your merry way living by the law of the jungle because that's how the world works, kill or be killed, dog eat dog, it's us or them etc. etc. , or you can choose to defy that natural (and very evil) law to greater or lesser degrees where possible.

Just because the world is the way it is doesn't make it right.

Originally posted by point
It's true, 'survival of the fittest' does appear to be the rule of thumb on this planet and probably this universe.
You can look at the obvious brutality of 'mother' nature and think "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" and go on your merry way living by the law of the jungle because that's how the world works, kill or be killed, dog eat dog, it's us or them etc. etc. , or you can choose to defy that natural (and very evil) law to greater or lesser degrees where possible.

Just because the world is the way it is doesn't make it right.

You only live today in a world where you can use a computer to communicate with other people in the other side of the world because of the fact that we, the humans, have been using what you call "a very evil law" of the "survival of the fittest".

In surviving there is no "good" or "evil", only "survive" and "do not survive".

We (meaning I and all the people I know) eat animals, is that wrong?

Is it wrong when a dog eats a rabbit?

Is it wrong when the rabbit eats a carrot?

What about the other beings, the plants? They are alive just as we are.

Do you want to live eating just what was never alive, or do you think that animals are better than plants?

Why? Because animals have feelings?

How can you tell that plants do not have feelings? Many people say they have.

You spoke of cannibalism, that means eating animals of the same species.

Do you know that rabbits sometimes eat they newborn? They are not carnivorous but they do it. Is that evil?

Do you know that pigs have been known to eat children's hands and/or feet? They are not carnivorous but they do it. Is that evil?

Some types of plants, when born near others, suck all the nutrients from the soil and grow faster than the others and so they also "steal" the sun light from those other plants, leading to the death of those plants. Are they evil?

If you see evil in all these things, then yes, I am evil because I eat fish, chicken, pig, cow, rice (not Condoleezza), potatoes, etc.

But then all living things are evil, and if all living things are evil, then there are no good living beings.

Originally posted by point
Can you say for certain no animal can appreciate music? Imagine playing heavymetal music with corresponding aggressive sounding vocals as opposed to a soothing mild classical piece at home in your lounge room with your pet cat resting on a chair. I'm sure the cat at very least would have a preferece internally and quite probably react outwardly. I'm also quite confident that I'd know its preference.

My cat likes some music playing low while he sleeps on my sister's bed, and no, its not mild classical pieces, its specially a music from an heavy metal band, but a slow piece, that my sister used to sing when my cat was just a little kitten.

Also emotional love, happines, joy etc. are all in evidence when one watches a wildlife documentary such as one about a pride of lions in Africa.

Is not necessary to watch some documentary, we can use our eyes in our every day life.

I saw once a disturbing but very interesting scene.

I was walking along a street and found a dead dog (I supposed it was hit by a car, because that street is the busiest street where I live) lying on the ground. Another dog was approaching. When the dog reached the dead dog, he noticed that he was dead and then had a reaction that, to me, showed that he was for the first time became aware of the fact that dogs can get killed. He ran away, looking very frightened, always looking behind, as if afraid of being discovered by the unknown thing that killed the other dog.

To me, that showed that the dog was aware that he was alive, that the other dog was dead, and that he also could become dead.

He did not knew what killed the other dog, but he assumed that the other dog was killed by something that exists in his comprehension, something visible and tangible, maybe for him the only way of becoming dead is by being killed, and he supposed, until then, that something like that does not happen to dogs.

If any being is made to suffer I believe it is wrong. Whether it is animal, mineral or vegetable, human, alien, whatever. I use the example of animals being mistreated and/or killed because they are easier to relate to than say a tree or a rock in my opinion.

No doubt everything has some degree of awareness, intelligence, energy of some form whether perceived or understood by humans or not.

The food chain where a higher more intelligent species is forced by instinct and necessity to consume a lower species just to stay alive ensures that a seemingly endless cycle of suffering exists on the planet.

What a wonderful world.

Originally posted by RaV
If their was some animal more intelligent than us, we would know.

How would we know this? If they're smarter than we are, they may be able to hide it from us.

Animals most definitely have emotions, are intelligent and most certainly do not operate by instinct alone. All animals, including humans, have instincts such as fearing death, protecting their children, etc. But I've been around various animals all of my life and I don't think they run solely or even largely by instinct; I see them making choices all the time. This is why it is possible to train many animals, they choose to follow directions given to them by their human. They show love, hurt, pain, trust of humans and others.

If animals can't reason how is it that researchers have been able to train chimpanzees to use sign language?

In many ways, animals are superior to us. For cats and dogs, their sense of smell is far better than humans; Their eyesight is much better, as is the sensitivity of their taste buds. In dogs, there is a natural antibiotic in their saliva that we humans do not have. Nor do animals kill just for the fun of it as some humans do, they kill because they're hungry, just as many humans do.

Just because they are 4 leggeds, instead of 2, doesn't make them inferior.
They are superior to humans in many ways.

-Forestlady

Okay.

Emotion is not instinct. Are you telling me a fly is scared when you start waving your hand around trying to smash it. NO. It reacts on intinct at that moment, 'giant hand = splat = dead'. It too damn dumb to realise that it should just back off cause sooner or later it will get squashed by the giant hand.

People say that plants have emotions BUT if you study brain chemistry you will realise that alot of emotions are chemically based in the brain and plants dont have brains so . . .

Some organisms are more intelligent than others. Thats why chimps can learn sign language, their genome is like 99% similar to humans.

In many ways, animals are superior to us. For cats and dogs, their sense of smell is far better than humans; Their eyesight is much better, as is the sensitivity of their taste buds.

Oooo wow, a fly can fly so its more superoir to me! Ill just build a jet and let it get sucked in the engine. Who's more superior now?? Im talking about actual brain power not physical properties. Superiority In Intellect.

In dogs, there is a natural antibiotic in their saliva that we humans do not have.

Humans have an enzyme called Lyzozyme which digests bacterial cell walls, which acts as an antibiotic. Im pretty sure dogs dont secrete anti-biotics into their mouths . . .

This is why it is possible to train many animals, they choose to follow directions given to them by their human. They show love, hurt, pain, trust of humans and others.

You dont know much about animal training. Its about repetition and habit. Not if the puppy loves you and chooses to obey you. Although I cant deny we do have a special relationship with dogs, hence mans best friend. A complicated symbiotic relationship. They get food and attention we get companionship. By the way, pain is NOT and emotion. Its a response to physical stimuli.

Nor do animals kill just for the fun of it as some humans do, they kill because they're hungry, just as many humans do.

I promise you that domesticated dogs and cats dont always eat what they kill. They do this simply out of instict. If its small and easy to kill, kill.

[edit on 2-3-2006 by RaV]

Originally posted by RaV
There are alot of differences between humans and animals. For starters, animals dont feel emotion the same way as we do, i wouldnt hold the same for primates though. I rattlesnake that kills a mother eagle does not have any regret that the young will perish in the nest. It just satisfies its instinct to survive and kill or be killed.
One may get confused such as when you shout at your dog for being bad and it seems sad sorry. This is only because it familarises the tone of your voice with pain or discomfort such as when it was being house trained. Not all of this can be explained such as when a dog approaches you and comforts you in your time of need. This could also only mean it knows if it does that it will receive grooming and attention.
We are the only organisms on this planet that have a consience, enjoy music, have religion and make choices that ultimately would not ensure our survival or procreation - such as taking a bullet for someone else u barely know.

Depsite us being varsely different from other animals we must still respect life and cannot simply treat animals as a piece of meat. It is our duty as superior life forms to watch over all others but at the same time ensuring our own survival which often leads to hard choices.

You state that animals dont have emotion and then give them emotive states such as satisfactoin or craving attention. If we evolved from animals then it is reasonale to assume that they have been endowed with access to some emotion.

The architect was wrong in the matrix, mans greatest stength and weakness isn't love, its emotion itself.

As for intelligence... this intuitively seems to be devoid of emotion.

As for our place in the food chain, this is nature, its like questioning who gave us the right to use this planet... its just brute fact, the way things are.

You state that animals dont have emotion and then give them emotive states such as satisfactoin or craving attention. If we evolved from animals then it is reasonable to assume that they have been endowed with access to some emotion.

Ive been thinking about animal's minds alot lately and and im not so sure anymore that they are emotionless. Its a bit confusing. An advanced brain is needed for emotion yet and advanced brain has high intelligence therefore the emotion could be redundant since everything is logical and emotion is the most illogical thing i know.

Maybe emotions are a recent evolutionary trate.

I agree, emotions are illogical. In many ways they act against intelligence and can cause a lot of unnecessary sufferring.

We don't practice slavery?

What do you call society then? We all have to slave our entire lives to make a living. It might be a more polite form of slavery, but it can still be considered slavery.

Animals are dumb. I wouldnt want to be one. So who really cares. Capitalism is more twisted then keeping animals as pets.

Are the "dumb" animals the ones we keep as pets or the ones that avoid capture. The ones we keep as pets have it pretty good in my opinion, so they must be the smart ones. The ones that avoid capture must be pretty smart also, as they are able to evade a supposedly "superior" being. We must be the dumb animals then, as we spend our whole lives slaving away to make a living.

When any one brings up a discussion like this then that person should think about this, " if you were put in a cage with a hungry tiger, do you think he will care about your opinion of his intelligence? No and it will kill you all the same, just as if you were a dog, cow, pig, or monkey!" Besides, cows, pigs, rabbits and what not would not be here if people did not care about them, just because you eat some thing dose not mean that you don't appreciate it, just that you are just hungry. Also humans are one of the most humane animals in the world, if you compare the way a pack of wolves kills a moose and the way a person kills it, the moose suffers a lot less if a person shoots it rather than have huge gashes in its body and being eaten a live, and most people will not kill a baby animal, they would even go out of their way to help it survive rather than mercilessly wound it and then eat the way other animal do.

Later, I got a bacon cheeseburger and some fried chicken calling me.