Soldier shot by cop while on leave from Iraq

All racism aside this guy should not be a cop. He shouldnt even work the drive through window at Taco Bell. He does not have the ability to handle high-stress situations, and obviously is not in control of his emotions or his gun. Is anyone arguing this?

mod edit: removed inappropriate comment

[edit on 9-2-2006 by sanctum]

As a britain I cant truly post with 100% understand of the american legal system and since the college computer system is less than "good" I cant watch the video but from the moods I am getting is that:

A) American Policemen are largely disliked

B) American policemen are largely seen as racist.

I would like to know this:

Why?

The 60's and 50's are over, I dont see police executing minorities and later just dumping the bodies.

I dont see the police using dogs against children in marches, why is there anger?

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Originally posted by DaFunk13
How many minorities on this thread?
How many of you feel like you have been mistreated by police?
I am sure you dont need some white dude to tell everyone how it is.

I am half black and have lived in southern California for most of my life, here, police misconduct is more of an art form. The LAPD has always been known as being some of the most crooked cops in the nation. Even in the 50's and sixties they were known for taking certain gang members, beating their asses, then would drop them off in rival gangland territory.

I have personally been witness to, and subjected to racist BS from cops in many a different circumstance. I have been with a groupof white friends only to have my person, and my person only checked for contraband, and/or gang tats. On the opposite side of the coin, I have also been with a group of black friends, and while my friends were thrown up against a car, and randomly searched; the cops asked me about my russian flack pack, and we discussed the recent fall of the soviet union. That's just the minor stuff too, I could go on and on.

Sometimes I wonder, how many videos of people being beaten and killed by the cops is it going to take before white america realizes what these cops are up to? Then I realize, white america already knows, and they already know that it is behaviour such as this that keeps their nice white neighborhoods, well, nice and white. This will never change because no one wants it to.

To stay on subject I saw the video a couple of nights ago and the audio was pretty damn clear. That poor kid was shot for no reason whatsoever and as usual the apologists are busy making excuses.I agree that the only good cop is a dead cop, cops like the one in this video are the reason why most of the minority community feels this way, and always will.
[edit-grammar]

[edit on 8-2-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]

It will continue as long as people are ignorant. Part of that ignorance is thinking that "minorities" are the only victims of police abuse.

flyservers.com...

Yeah tons of minorities in Iowa, hell the whole midwest is crawling with em. /sarcasm

Sure cops are racist, but you you honestly think low income whites have it any better? Try getting your house raided for drugs by 14 cops cause they found "seeds" in your trashcan. Sounds crazy doesn't it, even worse is the fact this seed incident happened long before 9-11 or any Patriot Act and the persons who's house was raided was held for 4 days in jail, without access to an attorney, and refused him his asthma medication which could have been lethal. Even worse is the fact that not one civil rights atty. would take his case.

Take the case mentioned on the link I posted for instance. It was on tape and the cop literally assinantes the man in front of his 13 year old daughter. Then his family cheers the verdict and taunts the victims when Ofc. Chad Butler was acquitted.

The more we make these things about race, the more the bad guys win. Police kill people all over the country, not just in urban centers.

Originally posted by devilwasp
As a britain I cant truly post with 100% understand of the american legal system [....]but from the moods I am getting is that:

A) American Policemen are largely disliked

B) American policemen are largely seen as racist.

I would like to know this:

Why? [............................]

I will try to answer your question. I can't speak for others of course, but it sounds as if you have been reading all the way through this thread so far. Even though you can't see the video, the posters here have pretty much described it in full detail. I'm sure you get the picture. I personally don't actually dislike all cops, as I don't know them all. I have run into a few in fact who have been very pleasant and reasonable people.

But, the problem is that in my experience at least, those are not the norm. It seems that IMO, many men & women who join the police force seem as though they joined already with an attitude. Like they had a score to settle with the world or something. I say this, because the meanest, most quick to jump all over a person for nothing and to be in short; rude, snide and mocking. Also, a great many of these type are men that seem to be of a rather small stature - or women who seem to have something to prove to the men they harrass. I think that many of them were picked on growing up, you know, bullied around. But, all grown with a badge and a gun, they seem to be trying to overcompensate for something. I'm no psychologist or anything, but I can see no other reason for them to pull people over for often times, no reason at all, then give chase - and these "high speed chases" happen much more frequently than could possibly be necessary. Especially when much of the time, it turns out that the person who has often been killed or permanently wounded by the time the cop actually "catches" them, has committed no more of a crime than having an expired tag, or an expired license, a tail light out, or something of that nature. This is not stuff that I have been personally involved in, but it is pn the news and in the papers every day.

And I don't recall say about a decade or so ago, them being nearly so trigger-happy. Like the story that is being discussed in this thread, incidents much like this one are happening on nearly a daily basis somewhere or other in the country. I could go on and on, but I'll just stick to a recent one that also sticks in my mind.

In New Orleans, after Katrina, apparently there was a man, I don't know if he had made some minor infraction or not, but apparently he was surrounded by something like 20 cops, and shot because he happened to have a knife he was holding. The officer that shot him was put on "paid administrative leave", but the Police Spokesperson claimed that the extra backup and the shooting were entirely justified because the man would not put down his knife......and the scary part, the part where they feard for their lives, was the fact that the blade was 3 INCHES LONG! I mean, my god, wouldn't you be just terrified? At least scared enough to shoot (shoot to kill, apparently were their orders there) to save your life?(sarcasm)

Anyway, like I say there are so many publicized incidents all over the country, where the cop kills someone, either by shooting them (usually) or by chasing them in their vehicle until they crash and die, 99% of the time, it seems to turn out that each one of those deaths were completely unneccessary, but have become so common place, and each time, the cop is in the right, the victim in the wrong - so claims their respective police departments, that I don't think that many people respect the police, just for having that attitude of that they can litterally get away with murder, openly and on top of it, get a paid vacation! I think that that customary "paid administrative leave" after haveing killed a citizen really irks a lot of people.

As stated by several in this thread, and in many places is an emblem on their cars, is the concept that the police are here to "protect and to serve". People should not be afraid of them, or be disgusted by their behavior, but they have brought it on themselves. The more that more and more of them get away with behaving like total thugs with no consequences, the worse it is going to get. It has gone to many of their heads, that they are above the law, and better than everyone else.

But as far as serving and protecting, basically I think that they have taken that slogan and twisted it to fit their current egotistical wants. They do a lot of serving of warrants, and a lot of protecting themselves from basically harmless people by using their guns.

Would you feel comfoirtable around people who have let their job go to their heads so much, that they don't seem to even have enough morality to realize that killing a citizen is wrong. But turn the tables, and if a cop is ever killed "in the line of duty", there is an all out witch hunt for whoever did it, and everyone they have ever known!

As far as being racist, I think that that notion probably started back (I don't know how old you are, or how much you paid attention to American news back in the 80's(?) I think, my own memory doesn't serve me well as to what time frame, just the details) when in Los Angeles, a black man by the name of Rodney King was brutally beaten by several while police officers. Now, this was back before the government had put spy cameras up all over the country, and cam-corders were somewhat still new. Someone, a tourist, I think - probably filming the beach or something, just happened to have caught the incident on their camcorder. It probably was far from the first such racial abuse by police, but it was the first one to be widely publicized, and the public, for the most part was outraged. Then, when the cops got off in a court of law, there were terrible riots and fires. No one will probably ever forget. I think that that is where the seed was planted that cops are racist.

I think that some are, some aren't. Just like doctors, garbage men, store clerks, etc.... some are, some arent'. I think that they are more bullies than racists. They will try to intimidate just about anyone they think they can. Unless of coiurse, they are one of the nice ones, who still realizes that they are aslo human.

Does that explain anything? I hope at least a little.

Yea, I too have had my door kicked in, dog shot, and house tossed for visiting the Garden of Weeden. The cops are abusive to a lot of people, not just minorities, this is true. However, there is no equal here. I have been in confrontations with police solo and with minority friends and I definately noticed a difference in tone and attitude in more than one occasion.

Wasp, the police here dont have to sic dogs on you, or shoot you and dump you off in the river. They are crooked in much more subtle ways. Like twisting your arm just a little too far. Or dropping a knee into your back. Or purposely breaking things in your car. Or just generally being too rough. And this is just the stuff done to my lily tail. Keep in mind I have 0 convictions and have been arrested a few times. I am not a criminal by any means.

Like I said before, I have heard a lot of stories from friends that would make you pale, but they dont need some white dude telling the world how racist and excessive police in the states are. Or at least the cops in my city.
Rodney King, the guy in NO, the guy on leave...they are all examples of what happens everyday in America.

Did anyone see the video of the guy being beaten in NO a few months ago? He was a 60 something year old teacher they claimed was drunk and abusive. He claims he hasnt drank in 20 years. The video shows this guy getting a gang initiation style beating. There were even spectators to the event that were yelling at the cops to stop.

I thought I would add this to the discussion:

L.A. Stops Naming Officers in Shootings

The city Police Commission is no longer releasing the names of officers involved in shootings.

The Police Commission made the change, overturning a 25-year-old policy, because officers' identities are protected under state law, said commission President John W. Mack.

Police union officials had long argued that releasing officers' names could expose them to danger, and union official had indicated they were prepared to sue over the disclosures, said Hank Hernandez, the organization's general counsel.

more...

You can bet this will be the new trend.

The proof in in the puddin...as it were.

The fact that they feel they need to disguise these officer's identities only goes to further prove that these injustices are indeed taking place.

Makes me want to start a revolution guys...quit it.

Originally posted by CyberKat
I saw that video just this morning on Good Morning America. It was the first I had heard of it. From reading you guy's postings, the sound quality and content of what the (I'm sorry, but.....) PIG said seems to have changed quite a bit. What I saw/heard this morning was that the cop supposedly said, "shut up", but the MP thought he said "get up" and was attempting to do so, when he was shot at point blank range 3 times for absolutely no reason.

Yup, thats pretty much it. Though each time i've watched it, it sounds like he says "Get up" not "Shut up", though "Shut Up" is obviously what he means, he seems confused, overwhelmed and didn't say what he ment, so when the poor Soldier did as he was instructed, he was shot...

Edit: Loam, i found that article really interesting too. I think it pretty much highlights WHY there is anger towards the American Police Force. I agree that to some extent the identity (of all involved) should be kept a secret until what exactly occured has been worked out, however I am somewhat fearful this is another step towards censoring such unfortunate incidents.

I have just heard of so many countless shootings of innocent people, reaching for wallets or cell phones or the cops just had the wrong address. Sadly, in alot of cases these people are 'minorities' and I personally think thats probably what makes some people consider the police force (in general) to be more racist than other groups.



[edit on 9-2-2006 by ekul08]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Did anyone see the video of the guy being beaten in NO a few months ago? He was a 60 something year old teacher they claimed was drunk and abusive. He claims he hasnt drank in 20 years. The video shows this guy getting a gang initiation style beating. There were even spectators to the event that were yelling at the cops to stop.

Yeah, because there are just so many of these type of surely (at least one time) illegal actions on the part of police, that one had slipped my mind for the time being until you brought it up. But now that I remember, I remember being equally outraged at that one. The poor old guy didn't stand a chance! And there was no confusion in that video. It was unmistakenly obvious just exactly what was going on. Police running amuk in the midst of near anarchy and joining in worse than the people looting.

If one is seriously having a crisis - being attacked, robbed, etc.... who can they turn to now a days? The police used to be the ones, I believe, but now, I think most people would feel safer in the hands of a kidnapper than at the mercy of the police. Very terrble situation. And who are the police accountable to anyway? More law enforcement higher-ups? They are no better, the higher up they are, the more untouchable they think they are.

Devilwasp, you say that you don't 100% understand the American Legal System. Well, just wanted you to know that you're not alone. I used to think that I did, or at least understand how it is supposed to work. But I no longer have a clue if there really is a system in place anymore. I bet there are others here in America that feel somewhat the same way.

I'm curious, Wasp, from your post and question, you sound genuinely surprised at the fact that many Americans are not too pleased with the majority of our law enforcement workers. Are the Brittish Police much different? Do they respect civilians? Are they polite and realize that they are human just like you and I? If so, well, you are very lucky.

I'm not being facisious either. I honestly have never been to any other country except for Mexico and Canada. So my only real knowledge of the way police behave, is the way they do in America. (Well, in Mexico, I once had to bribe a Mexican cop with $4.00 to keep him from arresting my ex-husband on some ridiculous infraction). But until I read your post, it never has occurred to me to even entertain thoughts of what police are like in other parts of the world. I just never thought to think about it.

[edit on 2/9/2006 by CyberKat]

Ironically enough, I have a freind attending trial on a disorderly conduct and resisting arrest charge...

He is white-collar... makes six figures... wife and family... never been in trouble with the law before....

While leaving a restaurant one evening, he was tasered before he was even spoken to! The officer believed he was involved in a dispute taking place in the restaurant.

Guess what? Even though he wasn't...take notice of the charges above...

Very scary, imo.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by loam]

I was charged with resisting arrest because I told the cop not to twist my arm so hard. I was only trying to keep him from breaking my shoulder. I was already cuffed. I am a white collar white guy with a nice car and two good jobs, a nice apartment and a kitty cat. I am no gang member. I am no drug traffiker. I grew up in a very rough area, and I do associate with some "thugs", but I have left the "old me" behind. I understand the old "Birds of a feather" saying, but I wasnt armed or dangerous.

I was arrested because I was at a party where a friend of mine was pistol whipped and I had to carry him out of a house, into my car, so I could take him to the hospital. I was about two steps out the door when the cops (seeing me covered in blood, carrying a barely conscious 20 year old kid) pulled guns, ordered me down, and arrested me for possibly saving my pals life. Luckily an ambulance was called and I got a nice lump or two and a ride DOWNTOWN.
I was out in 3 hours with one call to my attorney (Girlfriend's dad), and never even stepped foot in court. Is this what my taxes pay for?

You know, everyone has either experienced bad treatment by police or knows someone who has. This shows just how wide spread it is. A cop has the power to arrest you and/or beat you even if you've done nothing wrong. Since SOOO many cops do mistreat people, they now have a bad name.

While there are good cops that don't deserve a bad label, those good cops are not trying stop the bad ones. We can't stop the bad ones, so guess what - cops have a bad name and it is their own doing - and no one can stop them.

I do not want to have anything to do with police. If I need justice, I will do it myself.

When I hear of a cop getting shot or hurt on TV, who knows - the story might be a lie from cop. Maybe he deserved it. I have almost no respect left for them.

If there is something thing I cannot stand, it is lies, corruption, greed and abuse of power. That mind set of humans wanting to control another human - it is sickening.

Leading on from my earlier post and from the recent posts here, let me tell you all a little about myself...

I am a British citizen, who has now lived in the USA for the past two years.
I am not going to get into any debate about whether there or here is better or worse for any reasons, I can only comment on what I see, read, experience or have the great pleasure to watch on my TV. If for any reason I felt threatened, or my family did, we would get up and go, plain and simple. We are trying to make our life here, that's our decision.

I currently live near a fairly major city, somewhat of a change for me as I lived in a small community all my life back in England, but still near some major towns and cities. I awake every morning, listen to the local news and am dumbfounded by the amount of shootings that take place on a daily basis here. Guns are rife and I am constantly aware of this trend. I fear to go downtown and avoid it all costs. The local police seem to be afraid of any confrontation.
One story recently in particular springs to mind; a known area of town had a tremendous drug problem. People would openly deal in drugs, gun crime was huge. So the police decided to do something about it. The road in question was blocked off, and people were unable to drive down. The police came out and told the press that they had solved the problem.
Solved??? No added police presence, no arrests and I guess business carried on as usual; after all, people could still walk and do whatever they wanted. Couldn't they??

This type of operation, coupled with several incidences of local higher ranking police officers being caught (on film may I add) drunk driving and demanding that they should be driven home, coupled with the usual line "do you know who I am?" and then subsequently being let off or put on paid leave for a week or two. We have a serious problem, the police policing themselves and like Cyberkat said in her excellent post above, they seem to have chips on their shoulders and they are out to bully anyone they come across.

These stories are not just akin to this area, its happening all over the States. Corruption is huge and I think stems from the fact that each city, district and State has their own set of rules and each little pocket of law enforcement think they are above anyone else. Of course there are governing bodies that oversee that the law is being upheld, but they seem to be powerless against anyone. I know this is a huge debating point and hits hard to the beliefs of the United States and what it stands for. But maybe bad times need a total rethink of how the law is upheld and administered. This also goes to the laws that govern individual states and the way their politics are ran. Corruption seems to be rife also in local government, or at least to me.

Of course there is gun crime in England, but not on a scale as it is here. The police don't carry guns there, so maybe this is why the criminal's don't feel as much need to carry guns also. I didn't awake in England with the amount of shootings etc that take place here. All shootings were investigated thoroughly and quickly. I am not trying to paint a scene of a green and pleasant land. But from the above related stories from the other posters, I know this is so rife that all cases are not reported. How long would the news programs here be every night if every incident was reported? If crime here in my area was so bad, you would be hearing about it nationwide, its not, it's the norm. That's what bothers me!

I appreciate any comments from my caffeine induced ramblings, thank you for your time in reading.

Its nice to have a foreign perspective, thanks.

It is violent here...I couldnt tell you why, but it is. I have friends from the UK and a couple from Italy and they echo your thoughts. Ever seen the documentary "Bowling for Columbine?" It is definately really liberal-biased, but it is pretty good at investigating why we are so gun crazy over here.

Back on track.......

Do you have any issues with cops beating the crap out of people in the UK? I am sure there are a few instances, but is it widespread?

DaFunk13, thanks for your comments. I haven't seen the video you mentioned, will look for it, probably not a Sunday afternoon family film!

back on track...

I cannot recall any headline cases of beatings by the police in England, maybe someone else can shed some light on this. I miss the news channels of England, funny enough, I added BBC America to our cable viewing yesterday, So maybe I can keep up with the news there as well as online.

An interesting point...
Try a search on Google with the phrase... police beating england . I got bored trying to find anything after page five.
Retry the search with... police beating america . I was astounded by the amount of cases there. Or maybe I wasen't !

Just something to ponder.

Cheers.

Originally posted by simon_alex0327
Of course there is gun crime in England, but not on a scale as it is here. The police don't carry guns there, so maybe this is why the criminal's don't feel as much need to carry guns also.

Thank you for that tidbit of knowledge. Someone else, earlier in the thread, (DevilWasp(?)) I think, wrote that they were a britian and expressed much surprise at the fact that American Police seem to be so much disliked here, and did not understand all the anger being expressed here toward them. I did my best to explain - sortta, but anyway, the reason I'm thanking you for what you wrote that I quoted is because of his/her seemingly honest confusion, I got to thinking about how I never thought about how police of other counties act, but according to the way he/she was expressing thoughts, I wondered if it were possible that the police over there were really completely different or what. I got no answer, except for what I just read in your post of the fact that they don't carry guns.

That sheds a huge amount of light on why they must not seem nearly as intimmidating! And since they don't have all that gun-power to hide behind, probably do not come accross nearly as cocky, etc....

But...............that brings to mind another, opposing question. If I heard about it, I'm sure you did too. I guess it was on or around July 7, 2005, when there was a story of a man from Brazil, (an electrician working in London), who was boarding a subway, when a London policeman shot him five times in the back, killing him because he thought that he looked like a terrorist. Now, I was pretty enraged about that incident also, but still, not too surprised, as it mainly reflected everyday actions of police here.

But, how did the cop shoot the man in the first place if they don't carry guns?

This is very curios to me. Do you know more about the concept of cops don't carry guns, but can still shoot people? I am being seriously curious.

*On another note - regarding the story that started this thread*........Although there is no way, IMO that anything about the shooting of the MP can possibly be justified in any way, I think I can figure out what was not seen in the video, but what was probably the underlying reason for the whole thing.

A stupid power struggle between an off-duty Military Policeman, not in his jurisdiction, but (and I'm assuming because I do not know for a fact the heirarchy of the enforcers) probably of a higher rank than an ordinary street beat cop on duty and in his jurisdiction.

I didn't word that too well, but does it make some sort of sense?

Originally posted by CyberKat



But...............that brings to mind another, opposing question. If I heard about it, I'm sure you did too. I guess it was on or around July 7, 2005, when there was a story of a man from Brazil, (an electrician working in London), who was boarding a subway, when a London policeman shot him five times in the back, killing him because he thought that he looked like a terrorist. Now, I was pretty enraged about that incident also, but still, not too surprised, as it mainly reflected everyday actions of police here.

But, how did the cop shoot the man in the first place if they don't carry guns?

Certain specially trained squads of police are equipped with guns. You'll see polocemen armed with automatic weapons routinely patrolling areas like airports and other specific places and they'll resond to incidents where a handgun is involved.

It is thought that in the Menendez case that the police were augemented by either special military squads or by very highly specialised police squads. I don't think any of the names of the police involved have been published which leads me to think that they were a quasi secret unit - but I could be wrong about that.

Originally posted by CyberKat
But...............that brings to mind another, opposing question. If I heard about it, I'm sure you did too. I guess it was on or around July 7, 2005, when there was a story of a man from Brazil, (an electrician working in London), who was boarding a subway, when a London policeman shot him five times in the back, killing him because he thought that he looked like a terrorist. Now, I was pretty enraged about that incident also, but still, not too surprised, as it mainly reflected everyday actions of police here.

With respect there are many unclear factors in that case, some reports indicate police told him to halt, others refute this.

But, how did the cop shoot the man in the first place if they don't carry guns?

Its called SO19 or CO19 as its called now , a specialist branch of the metropoliton police force. They are the armed response force of the london policeforce.

This is very curios to me. Do you know more about the concept of cops don't carry guns, but can still shoot people? I am being seriously curious.

Well back in the 60's it was up to the local sergeant if any policeman could carry a revolver, but there was a specialist branch for gun crime. It was just very small.

Originally posted by CyberKat
I'm curious, Wasp, from your post and question, you sound genuinely surprised at the fact that many Americans are not too pleased with the majority of our law enforcement workers. Are the Brittish Police much different? Do they respect civilians? Are they polite and realize that they are human just like you and I? If so, well, you are very lucky.
[edit on 2/9/2006 by CyberKat]

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but in London I've never had a policeman be rude to me. I had to ask one the way to a train station the other day and she was polite and helpful. Our police officers are visible, unarmed (except in airports and the occasional patrol in train stations) and helpful. About ten years ago I got completely smashed at New Years, slipped on a pavement not far from my house (easy to do, as I have half a sense of balance) and cut my nose. Bleeding a bit and rather stunned, a police officer gently guided me the last twenty yards, checked with my parents that I was ok and told me to wear some better boots when it was cold.

CyberKat...
I think that is the main point. The police aren't as intimidating as they are here just solely for the reason that they don't carry guns. Maybe it's just my complete paranoia, but I don't feel easy just going up to a policeman here and asking directions etc.

I don't know if your familiar with the phrase here.. "Ask a policeman", but its common place in England. Times I have stopped them, asked for directions etc and have always got a satisfactory answer. Here in the States, even though I am still relatively new here, I have never asked one anything. One thing always sticks in my mind... One of my first visits to the USA, I was having dinner with my then to be wife (who is American). In walk two policemen... My wife asks what is wrong? (Obviously my facial expression is one of horror) I tell here that two policeman just walked in carrying guns the like I have never seen before. See now how sheltered my life has been upto then!
She just carried on eating, and said that's the way it is. I couldn't help but keep one eye on them!

As stated by the other posters above me, yes police in England do carry guns on special occasions. They are a crack team, trained specifically in this area. Airports are also very nerve racking, they carry huge semi-automatic weapons. Couple this with a fear of flying, no wonder my main hanging out area is the bar!!

The case of the man that was shot while getting on the tube seems like he had been under surveillance as the London bombings had recently taken place. Lots of unanswered questions concerning this case which I believe have been covered here. As stated previously, this was an undercover operation by a so called highly trained section of the police/intelligence divisions.

So who do you give guns to? A small section of the force who are highly trained, or everyone that joins up after their 12 weeks or so of basic training?

Just another passing thought... Maybe the officer in question in the case featured on this thread was totally pissed with all the talk on the media etc of "They are hero's, just got back from Iraq", when he considered himself a hero having to fight the fight each and every day on the streets with no recognition. (Side-note: Did he know he was a returning solider from duty in Iraq?)
Don't get me wrong, this is no excuse, and another reason that more psychological tests should be undertaken before issuing guns to everyone.

Just my thoughts.