Question to islamic/muslim members?

Howdy! first off id like to apologize if i got the islam/muslim title wrong, i dont know if theyre the same thing or not and i dont wish to offend anybody.

Ive never been a hardcore religious person, though i have my own set of beliefs, but i make a point to try to understand the major religions (ie christianity, islam, ect) and how they work. Mostly just out of interest, and also because im respectful of such things. Mostly its just in the search of understanding and insight.

My major question is, given everything thats going on in the world right now, especially with the recent publication of that cartoon that i admit was pretty offensive(id find it offensive if somebody made a cartoon like that about my beliefs or my country), ive been told many times that islam does not condone voilence or whatnot, yet i dont understand why the worldwide reaction has been what it has. I understand that there is not to be depictions of muhammed(spelling?), as that is said to lead to idolatry, but mainly im just looking for an insiders insight into all this. You see and hear so many differing opinions these days its not funny, so i figured i would just come on out and ask someone who knows.

Insights?

www.askimam.org...

it just take a small group of people to start breaking things for the rest to follow, its like that everywhere

many muslims have protested in a peacefull manar
boycott danish goods (aka costing denmarks export in middle east over 40million euro's and over 1million every day)

which i am for since its non violance

most violent ones are stired up by groups and hyped up even more by media.
also radicals have seen this is as a opertunity to inflame the situation with more images being published in france and other european countries knowing what will happen.

as a muslim i see this as a attack on my beliefs aka our prohet portaried as a terrorist.

in my view this situation is just getting inflamed everyday by news papers trying to show that they have freedom of speech even if it can cause so much tension and help radicals in their quest to make the wedge bigger as its not big enough

[edit on 8-2-2006 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul
many muslims have protested in a peacefull manar
boycott danish goods (aka costing denmarks export in middle east over 40million euro's and over 1million every day)

Exactly the reaction they want...




While, I'm not a religious person by any means, I do overstand the complex but simple nature of religion. The Koran does have angry, jealous scripture, as well as the Bible. Therfore, all religions will have extremist who take any aspect of that religion, be it good or bad, to the extreme. I personally feel it was brought to the media on purpose to anger the people of the Middle East, and at the same time put more subliminal suggestion in our sub-conscious that suggest their religion IS terrosim, and that their religion is meaningless.I feel that it is only more propaganda for the cause of demonizing , and instigating the Muslim world into conflict. C'mon ...getting mad over a cartoon??? The world is truly sick, and the people who thougt it would make a good story are sick..Stories are stopped from going to the press eveyday. But they didnt stop it, cause they knew the effect it would have..Why would this news story be allowed to hit our country in the first place, if PEACE is what they are trying to accomplish? Just like the Cuban incident with the African Americans. Just think about it.They get mad that another "World Wide joke" has been made of them.. They attack......We in return, mainly the UN, US and Brittain will say.."The TERRORIST attacked again!", The gullible masses will say..." They're Bad!"...and because of all the negative images , and suggestions that have been force feed to them, their sub-conscious mind will say.."And their religion is bad to!"....And the govermnet will have the peoples approval do do what ever is neccesary IN THE NAME of NATIONAL SECURITY..... to "...nuke out the terrorist!" Basically, any and every kind of negative, instigative action is happening to the Muslim world right now..And it's not just cartoons either. It's just another incident to show how " Mean" they are. It's all part of something bigger. Religion has always been, including "money" , one ofthe main factors in controlling peoples minds, and actions as early as early child hood. Especially if the parents are heavily indoctrinated.
Anyway, as far as the world wide reaction to the cartoon, most of the ones who are upset are religious anyway. They think .."Oh!! I would be mad too if that was my religion!".. they are locked into the same belief, or i say , mind control system as the Muslims. Even though they are diff religions, it works the same, because the structure is the same. So I would expect an average negative reaction, but of course much higer in the Middle East,and Muslims here in the US.
The cartoon controversey is not a random incident in my opinion, And yes, technally, and unfortunately, Islam and Christianity do teach hate, and jealousy..





en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 8-2-2006 by maathotep]

[edit on 8-2-2006 by maathotep]

[edit on 8-2-2006 by maathotep]

Hi The Lone Gunman,

I don't claim to be a very religious person, but I do know my religion. My father is the religious one in the family. Having said that, he does not condone the violence either.

I can assure you that while there are violent protests, there are also non-violent protests because of the issue. It's just that the non-violent ones are given less coverage, or none at all in the mainstream media. Also, if the non-violent protests are mentioned, it is just in passing.

For example I saw on the news (forgot if it was BBC or CNN, probably the former... I don't really trust CNN) the other day visuals of violent protests in Afghanistan, followed by a visual of the embassies in Beirut burning. Then the commentator mentioned something along the lines of "there were also protests in parts of Phillipines, Thailand and Indonesia" although there were no visuals accompanying it.

I've seen visuals of the protests in Indonesia myself on the local news (I live in neighbouring Malaysia btw, there's no major protests here but there are many who've stopped buying Danish goods). At any rate the visual I saw of the Indonesian protests show that it's pretty tame, nobody running around or chanting death threats, just a bunch of people in front of a building I'm assuming is an embassy condemning the cartoons.

As you can see, although the mainstream media doesn't explicitly say that the other protests were violent, by mentioning it just in passing after showing visuals of the violent ones, people would make the assumption that it was indeed a violent protest. The connection would be made after repeating it again and again (think Pavlov's classical conditioning).

Anyway, I also think that socio-economic factors come into play. In countries where the situation isn't so good, the protests tend to be more violent (such as in Afghanistan, Lebanon and Syria) whereas where life is pretty ok, the protests are non-violent in nature or none at all (Dubai, Qatar, even Malaysia)

I've made some of these points on another thread before. You can read it in this post and this post.

I hope the points I've made will give you a better insight on the situation. Reports of worldwide violence are greatly exaggerated

Islam and Christianity do teach hate, and jealousy..

Im a christian and my knowledge of the bible is not totally 100% but please show me references where the bible teaches hate or jealousy. How could 'love your neighbour' or 'turn the other cheek' relate to hate or jealousy??

[edit on 9-2-2006 by maathotep]

Originally posted by RaV
please show me references where the bible teaches hate or jealousy. How could 'love your neighbour' or 'turn the other cheek' relate to hate or jealousy??

"...the Biblical passage which suggest that if a man lies with a man they must be put to death exposes homosexuals to hatred." Justice J. Barclay, referring to Leviticus 20:13.
"Hate literature" is often defined as including:"

Material which is promotes the restriction of a person's or group's human rights.
Material which promotes ridicule or hatred of a person or group.

"There are many acts in the Bible which most people would considered immoral by contemporary standards if they were repeated today. These include religiously-motivated genocide, stoning non-virgin brides to death, burning some hookers alive, treating women as property, etc."..from Religioustolerance.org

Exodus 22:18: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." This calls for the execution of

Exodus 22:20: "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." The "Lord" in this case refers to Yahweh. Literally interpreted, this verse would only apply to those North Americans who follow religions like Santeria -- who often sacrifice chickens to their Gods and Goddesses -- or to Wiccans -- who have been known to sacrifice an apple or other fruit in a religious ritual. Interpreted more generally, the verse calls for the genocide of followers of all religions other than Judaism and Christianity.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." This calls for the execution of men who engage in at least some form of same-sex behavior

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 "If there arise among you a prophet, ... saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them...And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death...So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee...." This verse is another call for genocide against religious minorities. If applied in North America, it would result in the execution of every non Judeo-Christian clergyperson, and all laity who are engaged in proselytizing.

Psalms 79:6: "Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name." This is a call to God to commit genocide against persons of other faiths who are either unfamiliar with Judaism and Christianity, or who have learned and rejected these religions.

Matthew 27:24-25: "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." This passage, probably more than any other text in the Christian Scriptures fueled anti-Judaism, and later anti-semitism

John 8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." In this passage, Jesus is speaking to Jews who, like the majority of the residents of Palestine, rejected his teachings. He says that they are sons of Satan.

1 Corinthians 10:20-21 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." Here, Paul writes that the Gods and Goddesses of other religions are actually demons. In modern terms, they are Satanists. He taught that Christians are to isolate themselves from non-Christians.

All kinds of suggestive hate and jealousy quotes. Believers will come up with whatever excuse they can. But , fact is, it is teaching hate, and jealousy. The trick is to teach love at the same time, therefore you are blind to the fact you are learning hate at the same time. Do research ! It's all out there...

I can keep on going.....but I think I proved my point. Of course to the brainwashed mind, there will be no evidence here...so sad.....Koran is the same, actually even more extreme....
They are filled with 100's maybe thousands of hate references. Even God said his NAME IS jealous.... Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" Notice jealous is capitalized. And even the word used in that verse in Hebrew translates to jealous. Most pepole dont even realize also, that there is more than one "god" speaking in the bible. Lord is a title, not a name.

" That's why there is so much war now.. Its not just the Muslims getting mad and being religious fanatics, America too, it all comes from the subliminal programming of religion for the most part, then the rest comes from social programming.
[edit on 9-2-2006 by maathotep]

[edit on 9-2-2006 by maathotep]

Alot of the passages you quoted are subject to different interpretations of of which you took literally. Just as a note, when the terms put to death or destroyed are used it does not always mean it must be enforced by mankind on this earth. It could mean that on judgement day or the afterlife they will suffer for their sins. There is also a big difference between the New and Old testament. The new testament preaches louve from Jesus and the old testament are harsh laws from God and Moses. There were so many laws in the old tetament because the people then were incompetent. Most churches follow the ways of the new testament now days since we have more acceptance and understanding in this age.

"...the Biblical passage which suggest that if a man lies with a man they must be put to death exposes homosexuals to hatred." Justice J. Barclay, referring to Leviticus 20:13.

This is the version in my bible: Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

God is saying that any sexual acts before marriage is sinfull. He is not saying rally up against homosexuals and hate them. It is often said in the bible that you must love your neighbour despite your differences and do not judge but leave judging for the lord.

Exodus 22:18: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." This calls for the execution of

Exodus 22:20: "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." The "Lord" in this case refers to Yahweh. Literally interpreted, this verse would only apply to those North Americans who follow religions like Santeria -- who often sacrifice chickens to their Gods and Goddesses -- or to Wiccans -- who have been known to sacrifice an apple or other fruit in a religious ritual. Interpreted more generally, the verse calls for the genocide of followers of all religions other than Judaism and Christianity.

Often in the bible you cannot take simply the verse as a reference but the chapter as a whole is more representative as a meaning. If you carry on reading that same chapter you would read the following: Exodus 20:21-24
21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt
22
Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23
If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24
And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

The Lord is again saying that if you persecute people on this earth, he will persecute you in eternity. Again leave all judgement to him only.

Matthew 27:24-25: "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." This passage, probably more than any other text in the Christian Scriptures fueled anti-Judaism, and later anti-semitism

Pilate was stating that this is a terrible sin and he wishes to be no part of it. I agree that this passage could easily spark feelings of hatred to the jews since they are responsible for the death of Christ but if one had true and ernest understanding in the Bible you would see that they must be forgiven and we cannot judge them (Exodus 20:21).

John 8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." In this passage, Jesus is speaking to Jews who, like the majority of the residents of Palestine, rejected his teachings. He says that they are sons of Satan.

Don't take this literally. He is saying they are sinfull. Thats it. If you call someone a little devil you mean they are naughty or michievious not a miniture lucifer. Hope that makes sense.

1 Corinthians 10:20-21 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." Here, Paul writes that the Gods and Goddesses of other religions are actually demons. In modern terms, they are Satanists. He taught that Christians are to isolate themselves from non-Christians.

HUGE misinterpretation. Jesus is saying one cannot simply be neutral. You are either a follower of christ or not. No fence sitting. It is perfectly alright to mix with non-christians as long as you keep your faith.

Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" Notice jealous is capitalized. And even the word used in that verse in Hebrew translates to jealous. Most pepole dont even realize also, that there is more than one "god" speaking in the bible. Lord is a title, not a name.

I had never heard of this before and thanks for pointing it out. It very strange that the word jealous is used this way. Maybe its just a way to emphasise his desire to be the only god that we worship. I'll do some research on that.

Im not trying to preach or convert you. In your defense you will probably say im brainwashed but I could just say the same about you since you seem very anti-religion. I didnt do any research. Just my thoughts and my bible. If anyone has anything to add i welcome it.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by RaV]

Xtasawwufu,

A couple of things.

1. Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] = Is this Mummhamed (Sp.)?

2. I have seen this website before from colleagues who are muslims. Who governs this site?

3. The Framers of the US Constitution wrote it some that each gerneration could interpret it as they see fit. 200 years ago, the Reublican/Democrate position were reversed. Should the teachings of Allah be interpreted in a similar manner? Ever changing for the current generation?

We all know that our parents probably do not like what goings on today. We are okay with it. Because we grew up in a different "world" than they did. Is Islam any different? Or is it a strict dicipline to follow black letter Islam no matter what the people think or feel?

I mean no disrrespect. As a christian(episcopal - liberal as they come in christianity), I am trying to under a muslim point of view on the ever changing views of it people and how they feel about it.

Is there such a thing a contemporary Sharia?

Please feel free to bleed (no pun intended) all over anything I have stated. I am a professional and it takes a lot to offend me.

Originally posted by RaV
I didnt do any research. Just my thoughts and my bible.

My point exactly
And of course i'm anti- religious..look at my signature

[edit on 9-2-2006 by maathotep]

You dont really need research to discuss interpretation and content of the bible anyway. Just common sense and enough knowledge of the actaul religion.

Yeah but the proof is in the pudding. You don't see a bunch of Christians running around chopping peoples heads off and filming it. When you do see Christians do stupid stuff (like these people that are showing up at soldiers funerals and celebrating their death because they attribute it to God hating America because they don't outlaw homosexuality) you see a bunch of other Christians shout them down as idiots. I just haven't seen enough of this peaceful Muslim minority come out of the woodwork and shout the nut jobs down. I mean come on, rioting because you don't like a cartoon? Don't these people have other things to do then worry about what a cartoon writer in Denmark has to say? Why so worried? If you have faith in your religion why do you care what other people have to say?
Also, I really don't care if people point out in holy books where it says what, people pick and choose and justify their actions based on out-of-context texts all the time.

I think the question is, why do the people that are rioting and/or calling out death threats and/or willing to commit suicide bombings or condone it who profess to be a muslim commiting these violent acts?

Because you don't see it everywhere. You see it in quite a number muslim-majority countries, but not the half of them, not the majority, but just here and there. Granted even so their numbers are still pretty huge, but the world is large, plenty of people -- 6-point-something billion last I checked, of around which a billion or so are said to be muslims.

So what's wrong with these regions/countries? Why do people who are living there and/or grew up there and/or got educated there acting this way? Why do people who come from this or that said region professing to be muslims doing this?

Tell me this. Because I only know the story of one region and that is Indonesia. I'd like to know what any of you think about the others, about those other regions.

Hi Rav heres a bible quote for you:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

I think that this preaches hatred dont you?

There is also a big difference between the New and Old testament. The new testament preaches louve from Jesus and the old testament are harsh laws from God and Moses.

The NT teaches love does it?
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47)
Heres jesus condoning the use of slaves and beating them.

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
The 'Love' that jesus felt for the jews?

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)
Is this love thine enemy?

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:9)
Am I missing something here, there are verses that proclaim love but there are these that defy the christian doctrine.

G

As another member posted somewhere on the boards before, people quote texts from the sacred books out of context all the time. Best way to see a religion for what it truly is is to take a holistic approach to it.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
As another member posted somewhere on the boards before, people quote texts from the sacred books out of context all the time. Best way to see a religion for what it truly is is to take a holistic approach to it.

Yes I know, theres also the problem with some parts are to be taken as parables and some that have to be taken as truth. Who decides this?
The above quotes cant really be taken out of contex so stand against the 'love' that jesus is supposed to have displayed.

G

On parables and literal truths, I think common sense should decide which is which. Like I said, look at it as a whole - not just what the book says but also what the religion as a whole teaches. Then use common sense and it should be clear then which is which. But then that's just my take on it.

I think the problem most people have when it comes to comparing Islam and Christianity is that they only compare the holy books, Qur'an to the Bible, when Islam should be looked at with the Qur'an and Hadiths.

The Hadiths are a bit like the Gospels I suppose -- they are what Muhammad's disciples heard him preach that was passed on and on orally before they were written down after Muhammad's death. So there might be some parts that could have been corrupted through misinterpretations and such (remember the relay parlour game) whereas the Qur'an was memorized by practically a whole legion of people before -- so any corruption would have been spotted early on. But the jist of both these texts should be taken when making comparisons.