Chimeras-and President Bush's fear of them

What does President Bush know about the recent developments in the area of human-animal hybrid cloning? I sure as heck would like to know. Having kind of "followed" this subject for a number of years I really took notice when I heard him vehemenantly oppose it, albeit sort of hidden within a sentance about opposing human cloning in general, in his recent State of the Union address.

What alarms me most is that for what we do and do not allow in the states, still goes on in the world anyway...furthermore, what also alarms me is so many people are ignorant regarding Chimeras!

I first learned of them in reality, as opposed to fantasy, it was when I found out they had success with the human-pig hybrid. Many people have heard of it, and write it off as a hoax due to some stupid pictures on the web of a supposedly human-pig and her human-pigglets suckling for the purpose of a hoax, (or was it a hoax?) and/or and think it just has to do with a few cells in a dish for research-WRONG.

There are currently many a pig with human blood coursing through it, human hearts and livers in sheep, brain cells in mice...it's true I assure you...but then again...whats so wrong with that?

washington post-human hybrids

It certainly doesn't bother me as much as the reports I've read and heard of the animal itself. In some cases the "pig" was reported to be severely crippled, it's normal signature snout was not apparent as it had a more flat human-like face...however it was a "success" in so many aspects because it lived, it was a successful hybrid...and the meat was lean...very marketable for consumers.

Now, most such science is done in the name of research/finding cures for diseases at least, or for the possiblity of harvesting hybrid body parts, or at the limit of the most-for animal grown human body parts for harvesting for use in transplantation.

...but hey...if the meat is leaner can be sold too-well, who could argue with how successful that is!

Now, personally, what I find alarming as I said in the begining, is that for what we do know that goes on in this field of cloning...much more goes on that we do not know about. What we ban in this field in the US...much will continue elsewhere in the world where there are not the moral ethical restrictions imposed.

Makes one wonder...what the world is up to?

Also...for what is actually given for us to know anyway...much more is NOT known.

Hell, many people don't know about he human-pig hybrids at all! Or think it's a hoax! Many have never heard the term "Chimeras" and many think of all such mention as wild tales and then conjur up sci-fi scenes from movies and stories like Island of Dr Moreau...or hear old Danny Elfman, Oingo Boing songs speaking of the "House Of Pain" playing in the back of their head...but I assure you-Chimeras are real...have been for some time...and for all we do know-there is simply much we do not know...much TO know...just way too much unknown.

Pass the human-pig hybrid bacon..yum!

Also, this isn't recent, the human-pig hybrids were successful back in 1999...no, wait I take that back...they were reproted/made known to be successful back in 1999. However, who who knows how long it had been going on prior to that disclosure? What has developed recently, or gained momentum to be out of control and pose a threat more recently? What do we NOT know...what has Bush so freakin nervous?

Whatever it is...rest assured, since he failed to get support from anyone, including our allied nations like Britain etc when he called for a worldwide ban on human cloning through the UN back in 2004...whatever we don't see happen here legally, whatever it is we don't know about, it will still be going on anyway...here and worldwide-that is apparent.

Another interesting note, would be US government funding into such research.

I have posed a question in the past in SkunkWorks, asking if anyone has any idea what ALL the Dept of Commerce does...or is up to. I once worked for the Dept of Commerce, and to say there is only some cloak and dagger in the past-like with all the murders/deaths linked to Clinton, that would only cover certain types of sinister events...I believe there are more diiversified sinister elements of that US Govt Dept.

For example, to tie them in here, look at the grant they gave the U of N for research into human-animal hybrids organs for transplanting:

2000 – 2003 PI (UNMC Component), Department of Commerce Advanced Technology Program (ATP) Grant "Human/pig hybrid livers for transplantation." find it scrolling down here:

UNMC-Dept Commerce ATP grant

The NIST ATP also gave an award to first genetic trust which is a secure genetic repository with varied interests
First Genetic Trust

Things that make you go...hhhhhhhmmmmm.

[edit on 5-2-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 5-2-2006 by think2much]

tried to edit to add this link, but it wouldn't let me. Here is the link to the Dept Commerce's ATP awards. Scroll down to see award for First Genetic Trust

awards

kinda freaky if you ask me. I'm totally against creating half human, half animal beings. I mean thats just cruel. I wonder if the being would have the ability to speak and think like humans, and if it would have feelings. This just doesnt seem right at all.

I'd be quite interested in finding out just how many organic organs the pigs could be enginered to make in the lab. I would at the same time oppose any type of human-animal combo. I think that the animal world has a lot still to offer man but man must not be allowed to cross the thin line of intergrating the two. If I knew a human heart being grown in a lab or pig matched to my blood type and was the right size for me if I were to need a replacement, I'd opt for it if it were to keep me alive.

this part of the first article/link was interesting to me too....so for those that skip links:

The most radical experiment, still not conducted, would be to inject human stem cells into an animal embryo and then transfer that chimeric embryo into an animal's womb. Scientists suspect the proliferating human cells would spread throughout the animal embryo as it matured into a fetus and integrate themselves into every organ.

Such "humanized" animals could have countless uses. They would almost certainly provide better ways to test a new drug's efficacy and toxicity, for example, than the ordinary mice typically used today.

But few scientists are eager to do that experiment. The risk, they say, is that some human cells will find their way to the developing testes or ovaries, where they might grow into human sperm and eggs. If two such chimeras -- say, mice -- were to mate, a human embryo might form, trapped in a mouse.

Not everyone agrees that this would be a terrible result.

"What would be so dreadful?" asked Ann McLaren, a renowned developmental biologist at the University of Cambridge in England. After all, she said, no human embryo could develop successfully in a mouse womb. It would simply die, she told the academy. No harm done.

But others disagree -- if only out of fear of a public backlash.

if only out of fear of a public backlash...no other reasons...well, one easy way around that...keep the public ignorant!

The Technology to make Human Animal Chimera already exist and people have made them. Mixing in Human brain cells into monkey and mice stuff like that.

Personally I think in the future if you are of a consenting age (18 or whatever) you should be able to slice in whatever animal genes you want. Its your body you should be able to do whatever you want.

Like Cat guy



If he wants to slice in some Tiger Genes someday in the future he should be able too.

I am total against doing this to anyone too young to make the choice if they want this done or not. No doing this to babies or or people too young to make such a important decision.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
If he wants to slice in some Tiger Genes someday in the future he should be able too.

I am totaly for genetic engineering. But would we be able to splice into our own genes a sequence or whatever to begin developing the desired effect? Or would this have to be something done at the very begining stages of growth?

I think there are alot of ethical questions about designing life, but I think its something we should carefully explore.

To borrow a line from Frank Herbert, genetics is the language of god.

Originally posted by Xibalba
I am totaly for genetic engineering. But would we be able to splice into our own genes a sequence or whatever to begin developing the desired effect? Or would this have to be something done at the very begining stages of growth?

I assume it would be possible someday to do something like this with Gene therapy using perhaps Somatic cell gene therapy which works on adult cells and does not pass the alteration to future generations. In theory as long as that genes that encodes for the trait you want to alter is known somatic cell gene therapy can be used to alter it.

I guess I cant say that if I had the choice to be genetically engineered to be whatever I want I wouldnt turn it down. I mean if it were possible, think of how many Michael Jordans, Wayne Gretzkeys, David Beckhams and other great athletes there woudl be. I'm already kind of an athlete, I dont even know what I would be engineered to be, other than being positive I'm not mixing myself with an animal, well maybe for the reflexes of a mongoose.

Originally posted by ludaChris
I guess I cant say that if I had the choice to be genetically engineered to be whatever I want I wouldnt turn it down. I mean if it were possible, think of how many Michael Jordans, Wayne Gretzkeys, David Beckhams and other great athletes there woudl be.

yeah but then that is just it look HOW MANY there would be as you say...so the bar is raised...but everyone then meets it? Self-defeating to genetically engineer athletes as they'd not be allowed to compete unless everyone had the same opportunity...so just a new show...sports to a new extreme I suppose, but better? Not if it becomes par for the course

From what I have read, Human-Animal hybridization is not actually to create a Human with Animal features. It is just a way to grow human organs in animals. What if this were realized? The cost of organ transplants would plummet! People could get the life-saving operations they needed. There would be the cost of the "labor," but the cost for "parts" would go down (sorry to use car mechanic terms).

As of now, we use chicken eggs and embryos for almost all of our vaccines.

Why not use pigs to grow extra human organs?

As far as making a humanoid animal kinda creature... no way. Two billion years of SLOW evolution has made every living creature how it is today, and everything works fine. It has been proven that large changes in genetic structure end in catastrophe.

But what if it didn't? What if we made a pig-man or pig-woman, and they were just like us except they looked all piggy? How would society treat them? We already treat obese people like crap because of how they look. Pig-people would have it worse.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

I assume it would be possible someday to do something like this with Gene therapy using perhaps Somatic cell gene therapy which works on adult cells and does not pass the alteration to future generations. In theory as long as that genes that encodes for the trait you want to alter is known somatic cell gene therapy can be used to alter it.

yeah, well this is one of the reason I included the fact that besides the Dept of Commerce through the NIST ATP program giving grants to chimera projects at the U of N etc...but also funding First Generic Trust as well through that same program...and giving them awards for their work to boot...

hhhmmmmm kind of interesting...no?

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by ludaChris
kinda freaky if you ask me. I'm totally against creating half human, half animal beings. I mean thats just cruel. I wonder if the being would have the ability to speak and think like humans, and if it would have feelings. This just doesnt seem right at all.

I hear you on the unfair to animal side...one that no longer lived by it's natural instincts...but had been engineered and now had new thought processes not necessary for it's survival...and then a body that prevented it from following those thought processes...and unable to articulate them, vocalize them, share them with others...to me...that would create insanity.

So we'd have some crazy chimeras running about...

could be scarey...I think I feel a new book or screen play brewing in my mind...



[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama
From what I have read, Human-Animal hybridization is not actually to create a Human with Animal features. It is just a way to grow human organs in animals.

Well, sure, thats what most of us read and thats what the science was about in the begining...but once successful, the other rammifications of the process and science of it must be considered!

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_LlamaWhat if this were realized? The cost of organ transplants would plummet! People could get the life-saving operations they needed. There would be the cost of the "labor," but the cost for "parts" would go down (sorry to use car mechanic terms).

Sure...sounds great...life-saving and all...whoo-hoo...

but we must consider...what if the agendas of the less scrupulous were equally realized?

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_LlamaAs far as making a humanoid animal kinda creature... no way. Two billion years of SLOW evolution has made every living creature how it is today, and everything works fine. It has been proven that large changes in genetic structure end in catastrophe.

Exactly, so this is the scare...what happens if this gets out of hand...what if they do push the envelope...what if it is disasterous, but they keep trying to make it better...what if it is successful...and gets out of hand... what if...

it's much easier to consider the what if...when you realize the science is there, in place and in practice already-it's not sci-fi it's reality... and the beginings are successful...and this is just what we get to "read about"...what about what we do not get to know about...

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama


But what if it didn't? What if we made a pig-man or pig-woman, and they were just like us except they looked all piggy? How would society treat them? We already treat obese people like crap because of how they look. Pig-people would have it worse.

Tell that to the body mod crowd they dont give a crap what people think of them.


You think this guy or the other I posted care what people think? They have the choice to alter thier body in anyway they want. If someone like this wants to alter their genes in the future who has the right to say they shouldnt be able too.

Theres many people that really dont care what society thinks of them and dont want to conform.

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama
From what I have read, Human-Animal hybridization is not actually to create a Human with Animal features. It is just a way to grow human organs in animals. What if this were realized? The cost of organ transplants would plummet! People could get the life-saving operations they needed. There would be the cost of the "labor," but the cost for "parts" would go down (sorry to use car mechanic terms).

Like Ralph, I recall reading something about the idea behind this 'splicing' was to create donor organs that would be more compatible with humans and less likely to be rejected by a patient's body. ( In the past, I believe baboon hearts have been used at least as temporary transplants when human hearts were unavailable. And sometimes blood vessels from pigs are used for replacements.)

Here is a site showing a mouse 'growing' a human ear......
www.kidzworld.com...

The mold is made from special fibers that are biodegradable. Before the mold is implanted into the back of a hairless mouse, it is covered with human cartilage cells - the same cells our ears are made from. Blood from the mouse help the cartilage cells grow and eventually replace the fibers. What you end up with is a piece of cartilage in the shape of an ear.

It's not an actual 'clone', the ear is human on a cellular level.....not a mix of mouse and human, but the cells are fed by the mouse's blood vessels.

I haven't a link to this, but I recall reading that when attempts were made to mix the human DNA with pigs, in order to reduce that risk of transplant rejection, the pigs that resulted were stricken with human ailments....they developed terrible arthritis as they began to age.

Originally posted by frayed1

Like Ralph, I recall reading something about the idea behind this 'splicing' was to create donor organs that would be more compatible with humans and less likely to be rejected by a patient's body.

Oh yes, we know the premise for the sceince to be used, the question is where is the line drawn?

Originally posted by frayed1
( In the past, I believe baboon hearts have been used at least as temporary transplants when human hearts were unavailable. And sometimes blood vessels from pigs are used for replacements.)

Again, yes animals tissues have been used in humans, and mice have grown more than just tumors, they've managed to grow ears...but like you said, it is not a clone...and furthermore, I'll add that it isn't a hybrid , a chimera either.

Originally posted by frayed1
I haven't a link to this, but I recall reading that when attempts were made to mix the human DNA with pigs, in order to reduce that risk of transplant rejection, the pigs that resulted were stricken with human ailments....they developed terrible arthritis as they began to age.

Um...I could probably find a link, it is known the pigs were actually even born severly crippled in that arthriti condition you speak of-even unable to walk.

However this was some years ago.,..I don't know how well things have progressed. The fact remains...we do have the science...what will we do with it...what is Bush afraid of? Is it just his moral ethical stand based on principles or more?

Like the human sperm and eggs being devoloped in mice...and those chimeras mating...creating a humn embroyo-life-within a mouse... or is it something more sinister...like Stalins ape-men...LOTR Orc type pawns for battle

and what would societies view be...yeah for transplanting organs grown in animals...but what about other misuses of this science...



[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama
But what if it didn't? What if we made a pig-man or pig-woman, and they were just like us except they looked all piggy? How would society treat them? We already treat obese people like crap because of how they look. Pig-people would have it worse.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Tell that to the body mod crowd they dont give a crap what people think of them. You think this guy or the other I posted care what people think? They have the choice to alter thier body in anyway they want.

Aha! Yes, but see big difference between altering your body ala the body mods, and being engineered to be a pigman...without choice...or born to be manmouse

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
If someone like this wants to alter their genes in the future who has the right to say they shouldnt be able too.

Well, if it is going to be a matter of choice, I'd say no one can tell anyone what to do, however, there should be certain limits for the welfare of others that would have to live in society with possibly animalistically agressive people, with inhumane strength for example...but if all they want is to do is look and sound like a large cat and be a tiger in bed...so be it...

However, as far as most body modifiers I know, they don't just do it to be diffferent anymore...different from society-yes to a degree, but amongst themselves, it's a trend of its own....they do it to conform to their own subculture society. It's very similar to some native tribes of Africa that do similar things and the more the mutilation the more virile they are considered etc...but I wont go into all of that right now...

what I will say is that bodymodifiers usually like the extremes they have to go through to make those changes to their body as well. Genetic transformation wouldn't hold the same allure for most-though it would be considered cool to many. But, especially those that really get burned good or have an almost leathal amount of piercings-to the point they go into shock....it's the process as much as the result...when people look at them society cringes and fellow modifiers know what they went through-it's a sign of strength and dedication to be part of a tribe that scorns the society that spawned them.

Many felt like misfits to begin with, to *wear it* so to speak outwardly gives them internal reason to feel their rejection from society is based on what can be seen instead of what is possibly inherantly wrong with them, and there is some solace in that instead of wondering "why don't I belong?" and in it, they find a society to belong with as well...of likeminded people they'd never have perhaps met, had they not find a way to come together...

now...would the genetically modified types fit this bill, not likely...look at the thought already of better athletes...I can't see modifiers wanting it for a look, if anyone can have it

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Theres many people that really dont care what society thinks of them and dont want to conform.

Exactly, but if such science became everyday common what would be the allure for them?

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by think2much
I hear you on the unfair to animal side...one that no longer lived by it's natural instincts...but had been engineered and now had new thought processes not necessary for it's survival...and then a body that prevented it from following those thought processes...and unable to articulate them, vocalize them, share them with others...to me...that would create insanity.

So we'd have some crazy chimeras running about...

could be scarey...I think I feel a new book or screen play brewing in my mind...

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]

Yeah.... and it is called "The Island of Dr. Moreau"

[edit on 7-2-2006 by 2manyquestions]

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Yeah.... and it is called "The Island of Dr. Moreau"

I said NEW didn't I? I'm not saying the premise hasn't been introduced...though makes one wonder how long chimeras have been around...wasn't it HG Wells that wrote Moreau

man I loved that movie when I was a kid...was it David SOul in it? I ahven't seen it in years...I dind't like the remake so much...I just expected so much MORE

ah well... anyway...no I have something else in mind... but you'll have to fork out $20 at the bookstore or $10 bucks at the theatres just like everyone else so there!

[edit on 7-2-2006 by think2much]