Religion, dont believe it!

People do other things to fill the gap in solitude or loneliness, suicide, drugs, drink, and other chaotic behaviours some could find peace. It can go both ways you can be crazy and become chilled out once you realise that maybe there is more to life than the negatives of this world and that can ignite the questions of injustice and law and orders in which we are bound by. People can be pulled out by God and transform their lives but go into a great sense of awareness on a natural scale or maybe a living one. You find people whom amongst Christians have the same type of feelings and thought processes of the feeling of the Holy Spirit. Their knowledge expands and their feelings of negativity erased. Positive thinking you say could do the trick I think the Bible can manage that also.



[edit on 9-2-2006 by The time lord]

Ghosts, spirits, near death experiences, the supernatural...these things, and more, are the reason we have religions. 200,000 years of experience has taught us that there is more to life than the obvious.

Religions are born when groups of people decide to combine those experiences into a body of esoteric knowledge and civil law, usually as a way to control populations.

Religion is watered down, impersonal, spiritual experience...a shamanism for the masses.

just my opinion.

edited for spelling

[edit on 9-2-2006 by masqua]

1:Historical records, Christianty and jewdasim boasts a large amout of archaeology its a specialist subject it backs things up.

And what historical document's exist that prove a god did indeed exist? Archeology is one thing, religion is something totally different.

2:Original manuscipts no other books are closer to date of events.

The flood told in genesis is very similar to the epic of gilgamesh, which predate's any biblical manuscript's. Yet neither give a date as to when the flood occured, just a record that it happened. So in the light of original manuscript, the sumerians win as far as the flood is concerned.

3:Question the God in Mind is he nuts or logical?

Without knowing god on a personal level or his way of thinking, how are we to determine he is nuts or logical? If we were able to determine hypotheticaly which was nuts and which was logical, how are we to still yet discern from that knowledge which is the true god. Without physical evidence of who this true god is, we can not come to a determination if the true god is nuts or logical.

4:The history in the book the events or if the future is predicted look to the future for signs.

The shaman's of rain god worshiper's make "predictions" as well, and so far, nothing I've seen in revelations has yet to happen. Where as the shaman predicted it would rain a certain day 4 days into the future. So in that respect, I would believe the shaman over a book of predictions that haven't happened at all.

5:Fairness of law and logic. Some laws changed as man kind got worse and God as in the Bible as Jesus did payed for our sins so new laws were made.

What of the things our lowly haman must endure on a daily basis for each sick member of the tribe to dispell the demons making that person sick? jesus's existance is still highly debatable, even within the religous sect. Where as my lowly shaman exist's in the here and now performing rituals that make me better.

6: Nature look at the order of things and how man kind is replicating the same ideas found in nature. As God did we do.

Look at how mankind is comming up with these answers. The religous sects aren't creating new universes out of nothing as god did. Yet scientist's using well understood laws of physics are showing how a universe can come into existance without the need os a god. Who shall I believe under that respect?

7: Science in that religion could it be this way or is that mans interpretation of science.

There's nothing scientific about religion. Unfortunatly unquestioning blind faith doesn't equal science. Where as science question's all aspects to arrive at an answer. Even our lowly shaman must question and discern the correct methods, gods, and rituals to heal the sick or pray for rain from the rain gods, or to save the village from the volcano gods.

8: Deeper meanings of context like hidden mathamatical sytems in how things add up. Like the herbrew translation or words in Genesis all divide in 7s or have 7s in their calculated forms.

Number play is a wonderfull toy. Given time you could see anything you want in any given text. From prediction's that appear for events already have happened, to so called religous truths to entirely new works of fiction. Would one really believe in something so vauge as proof of any particular god?

Question everything, but at the end of the day there is basic law be good or be evil thats a choice.

And this is exactly what science is all about. Questioning everything. I've yet to see religion pose the question "What if there is no god".

Originally posted by masqua
Ghosts, spirits, near death experiences, the supernatural...these things, and more, are the reason we have religions. 200,000 years of experience has taught us that there is more to life than the obvious.

What evidence exist's for ghost's, spirits and supernatural occurances? As you'll notice these two links describe what happens inside the brain and why durring NDE's and OBE's. As far as supernatural thing's, such as telekenises, everytime we try to scientifcly verify it, the person is unable to do so, or it turns out to be a hoax.

brain.oxfordjournals.org...

We suggest that OBE and AS are related to a failure to integrate proprioceptive, tactile and visual information with respect to one’s own body (disintegration in personal space) and by a vestibular dysfunction leading to an additional disintegration between personal (vestibular) space and extrapersonal (visual) space. We argue that both disintegrations (personal; personal–extrapersonal) are necessary for the occurrence of OBE and AS, and that they are due to a paroxysmal cerebral dysfunction of the TPJ in a state of partially and briefly impaired consciousness.

serendip.brynmawr.edu...

The understanding of neural relationships during NDE's has culminated in the ability to reproduce each phenomena in a controlled setting. It has been found that the intravenous administration of 50-100 mg of ketamine can safely reproduce all features of an NDE (2) and electrical stimulation of the right angular gyrus portion of the brain can safely reproduce an out of body experience (6). Scientific research has even explained why religion is emphasized during an NDE. Activation in the temporal lobe region, known as the "God Spot (7)" during an NDE is reported to stimulate religious themed thoughts (8). This research has major implications in the battle of science versus religion. It provides evidence that specific brain activity can create the perception of religion and divinity. If this is true than this brain activity can be turned off and in effect remove religion from our lives.

200,000 years of what USED to be unexplainable has lead to these religous beliefs, but as our understanding and knowledge grown, the majority of the civilized world no longer thinks the earth is flat as religion once taught or that lightening and rain come from gods in the sky.

Thanks for the links and debate, Produkt

Originally posted by Produkt
What evidence exist's for ghost's, spirits and supernatural occurances? As you'll notice these two links describe what happens inside the brain and why durring NDE's and OBE's. As far as supernatural thing's, such as telekenises, everytime we try to scientifcly verify it, the person is unable to do so, or it turns out to be a hoax.

That's just the great thing about it all, isn't it? There exists nothing we can measure, hold in our hands or under a microscope. All we have is our personal experiences and how we use them to conduct ourselves in our day to days. Much of what is written down about the supernatural is a hoax perpetrated to frighten people into some form of compliance.

'You better stay under the covers or the Boogie Man's gonna get ya' is basically what most religions are all about and we know what the Boogie Man's purpose is...do what we say or you'll be sorry.

I suppose the best way for me to explain it is that nobody can convince you or anyone else that the supernatural exists through the scientific method. It either comes through self-discovery or not at all.

I've had two experiences in my life which has convinced me that there is a spiritual side to our existance. No matter what those experiences were, they are meaningless to you because they are easily debunked by the lack of real evidence (my say-so only) or explained by the latest attempt of science to account for them (lack of oxygen to the brain).

Originally posted by Produkt
200,000 years of what USED to be unexplainable has lead to these religous beliefs, but as our understanding and knowledge grown, the majority of the civilized world no longer thinks the earth is flat as religion once taught or that lightening and rain come from gods in the sky.

Plato knew the world was round, like a ball, yet we chose to disbelieve him.
Those ancient Greeks of 500BC, who believed in multiple gods, knew more about reality than 1000 years of Christianity...so the flat earth theory doesn't count, really.

As to the rain-making, there are a lot of contemporary thinkers, like myself, who opine that the Creator is the rain...and everything else as well. But, the fact that we can prompt external Gods to produce rain is something I doubt, yet plenty of people still believe.

.edit for grammar

[edit on 9-2-2006 by masqua]

just imagine where the world would be right now without religion, HELL!

hanky.....

Personally, I think that should be rephrased to "where would the world be now without GOODNESS/Conscience etc (Or God, depending on your beliefs).

Where the world would be today without RELIGION......is a peaceful place.
There has been too many millions slaughtered in the name of religion,
and different peoples interpretation of bibles etc.

Religion is not to be thanked for anything imo. God, yes, but not religion.

I think that many of you have been misled by your former churches into thinking that they are very repetitive and bland. I would have to say that the catholic church is mostly to blame for this. But to my point, I too at one point grew old with church and went on my own way to find the true awnser about religion. I have read many books, from both the standpoint for and agaist religion. In many cases, I have read about many smart people and some evolutionary scientists for that matter have turned to christianity for the only explanation for life on earth. Even Einstein remained a faithful jew his whole life, christian, no, but even with the powerful mind of Einstein, he tuned to god. It seems in many peoples lives that I have read about in my past that the more people set out to try to disprove the teachings of Christianity, they find that the evidence for it outweighs the ladder. If you do the research, you can find that many prophocies in the Bible have been foretold true, many of these being based out of Isreal and the hatred agaist the Jews. To get started, here is some passages out of the Bible, and comment as told in the book, The American Prophecies, by Michael D. Evans
~Many would come in His name setting themselves up as Christ and establishing their own religions (Matthew 24:5,11)
It is sad, but many churches today accept gays and lesbians, and the chuches accept them saying that it is "godly love" to one one another
~Persecution shall increase (Matthew 24:8-10)
More than 65 percent of the nearly 69.5 million Christians who have died for their faith, died in the twentieth century. Today, an average of 435 Christians die for their faith EVERY DAY.

These are just a small, small, amount of proghecies that were foretold true. Do the research, and you are bound to find the others.

And to close, this nation was founded on the belief of Chrisianity, and today, liberals are using the government against themselfs, making God a smaller and smaller part of the American life. Sucessfully making the nation a more corrupt place. Think about it, when the U.S. was founded, it had its flaws, but it was by far the most stable government ever established by man, and has been in the running so far. Of course you can argue this point, along with any other I have made in this post. But that was my thinking when I started to try and outsmart God, find the loophole, but in the end, the evidence points one way, Faith.

What "evidence" do you speak of?

"Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!"

Thought Process,

Your the very model of a "good" christian, so it seem's. Brainwashed to actually think this country was founded on christianity.

earlyamerica.com...

This is from a thread that got locked by another religous mod. This reply I made after a different person has said something about islam becomming more popular equalling social degradation.

"Lack of religion or TOLERANCE of other religions doesn't equal social degradation. The stance christianity has taken towards the belief that they held a significant importance towards the founding of this country is social degradation. By digging their claws deep into the government in an attempt to change what our founding father's seth forth to create is social degradation. Christians have got to learn they are NOT the only one's. Same with all religions. Especially the monothiestic one's. "

I'd also like to point out that the history and validity of your diety, christ, isn't very solid. I've never heard of any other country recording this so called miraculous jesus f. christ.

The prediction's made in the bible, particulary those concerning the gaining of follower's, you can thank your fellow christian's for making those prediction's come true, not because people one day opened they're eye's and said whoa, duuude, it's all real.

This link has an excerpt from a book of mine, one of my favorite sci-fi books. People of ANY religous faith should defnatly read this excerpt, forgetting that they are religous. Just read it with an open mind and take a look at your religous history through out the ages.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If one has the inclination to meditate on a regualr basis you would experiance a stillness that finds you, the eternal search is not to find the answer, the answer is in the mental calm that allows one to have the answers find you.

The action of 'non-action' (if you bear with me) allows an individuals soul to become part of the person it is in and therin begins begins the life-journey the soul was meant to travel through this existence.

Valorian,

Please elaborate. Rather than speaking ina philosophical and religous manerism, how about you question the validity of that statement. How many clear cut examples exist backing up that statement? What exactly is the meaning behind that philosophical statement? What steps does one need to take towards 'in-action' that would lead one to become religous? Is this a possible explanation for unquestioning blind faith?

What of all the good people who don't follow any religion, but also say god's name in vain or look down upon the so called "children of god" as if they're still practicing an uneeded barbaric tribal societies way of explaining the world before mankind actually started doing the very questioning the religion teach's not to do. For example, I've come to accept that there is no god, all evidence point's to it. Yet, I say god damn it and jesus fing christ as a cuss word quiet often. But I lead a good life beyond all that, so, am I going to heaven or hell? What proof would you have concerning whichever answer you gave me? And, what is the soul? Do you have proof that a soul even exist's? Is this the same soul mystics and charletans claimed they could 'trap' inside crystals, or steal? What proof is there that these event's even happened? How many example's exist of someone saying they're going to steal another's soul, and then right after the so called soul theft, the person's soul that was stolen drops dead?

Something else I was just thinking about concerning the so called soul...

It won't be too far long into the future where it would become possible to take out your brain and keep it alive in a robotic form. The technology to take over certain bodily functions already exist, and the technologies to take over sight, speach, hearing are already here as well, although not that great. But give, say 100-200 years of developement, they could be just as good as our biological systems.

So, 200 years from now, someone before bodily death transfer's their brain into this robotic form to add many more year's to his or her life. Where's the soul go after bodily death? Is it located in the body, or is it located in the brain? If it's in the brain, where? What evidence exist's that it's in the brain? What's it made of? How can you be sure of it's existance if you can't find it? Is unquestioning blind faith really the answer to enlightenment or is it just, as most rational minded folk have come to accept, just another way of saying ignorant?

Originally posted by Produkt
Valorian,

Please elaborate. Rather than speaking ina philosophical and religous manerism, how about you question the validity of that statement. How many clear cut examples exist backing up that statement? What exactly is the meaning behind that philosophical statement? What steps does one need to take towards 'in-action' that would lead one to become religous? Is this a possible explanation for unquestioning blind faith?

What of all the good people who don't follow any religion, but also say god's name in vain or look down upon the so called "children of god" as if they're still practicing an uneeded barbaric tribal societies way of explaining the world before mankind actually started doing the very questioning the religion teach's not to do. For example, I've come to accept that there is no god, all evidence point's to it. Yet, I say god damn it and jesus fing christ as a cuss word quiet often. But I lead a good life beyond all that, so, am I going to heaven or hell? What proof would you have concerning whichever answer you gave me? And, what is the soul? Do you have proof that a soul even exist's? Is this the same soul mystics and charletans claimed they could 'trap' inside crystals, or steal? What proof is there that these event's even happened? How many example's exist of someone saying they're going to steal another's soul, and then right after the so called soul theft, the person's soul that was stolen drops dead?

Produkt
An elaboration could take some time but in essence I don't think I need to question ther validity of my statement as I made it - you are questioning the statement.
Everyone knows their soul when you really think about it - when you have been in a situation and you feel that 'little nagging voice' telling you to be careful or think about what you are about to do or say, that would be a very simple way of recognising your soul or inner self.

Inaction is simply a state of mind where the mind is at rest from the day-to-day worries and constant thinking process that it gets itself into - almost a dream state of mind but you are in control of the dreaming process - that is meditation
If you get to experience it you would have 'blind faith' in what I have mentioned as it becomes your personal experience and not something you have seen or read, you would not need clear cut examples to be proved as they would have proved it to you automatically.

I don't feel that anyone or anybeing can actually possess ones soul unless you give your energy to that being with free will, if that is the inclination then the soul would have to agree with what you desire.

An elaboration could take some time but in essence I don't think I need to question ther validity of my statement as I made it - you are questioning the statement.
Everyone knows their soul when you really think about it - when you have been in a situation and you feel that 'little nagging voice' telling you to be careful or think about what you are about to do or say, that would be a very simple way of recognising your soul or inner self.

Correct, I am questioning it. I'm going against the very nature of unquestioning blind faith, because unlike those who follow such doctrine, I have a yearning to know and seek out knowledge. In all fairness however, why is it that you feel no need to question the vailidity of your beliefs?

Alot of people hear 'voices' in their head's. There are terms we give those people along with medication's that solve the problem of hearing dissembodied voices that don't exist. If your talking about intuition, there is some evidence for an intuition type response comming from the second brain inside our gut's, this is where the phrase 'gut instint' come's from. We've only just realized that this 'second' brain of sorts exist's, and we're still discovering all of it's functions. But as I said, there are medications anyone can take to cure them from hearing dissembodied voices, including multiple personalities.

Inaction is simply a state of mind where the mind is at rest from the day-to-day worries and constant thinking process that it gets itself into - almost a dream state of mind but you are in control of the dreaming process - that is meditation
If you get to experience it you would have 'blind faith' in what I have mentioned as it becomes your personal experience and not something you have seen or read, you would not need clear cut examples to be proved as they would have proved it to you automatically.

Meitiation is a well understood reality. You can induce alot of responses through the practice of biofeedback as well. Auto-Self Hypnosis is another aspect of the human brain that is also well understood. If your activly meditating on the philosophical aspects of a soul or god, your not actually finding them, but over time you could come to believe you have found them through biofeedback and self hypnosis. Hypnotic regressions can also help you remember traumatizing memories your brain forced you to forget, the information is still stored, just locked in a way because the experience forgoten, without psychological help to deal with the experience to help you deal with such an event. The brain is a very mysterious organ.

I don't feel that anyone or anybeing can actually possess ones soul unless you give your energy to that being with free will, if that is the inclination then the soul would have to agree with what you desire.

Why not? Possesions are proclaimed from almost every single religion on earth. Honestly, I wonder if these are just fanatics who've had a bad experience in life or mental instabilities along with their religious teaching's that lead them to believe they were possessed by a demon. This could very well explain in a way why exorcisms work. Due to the strong religous belief's, hypnotic suggestions, possible mental issues, one could very well think a demon is being expelled from their bodies. There's no evidence of a soul, and I'd like to hear your opinion concerning my post just above your last one. Would a disembodied brain still contain a soul and where would this so called soul reside and what is it made up of?

hehehe
All well and said - I think you try meditation to relax my friend, it could never hurt (aaaah but it might tho)

Originally posted by hankyone
just imagine where the world would be right now without religion, HELL!

Acually, If there were no religion the world would be a realtively more peaceful place and a much more advanced society. Come to think of it, all we have to thank relgion for is the an 800 year period were science was heresy (Dark Ages), World war two, the crusades, 9/11 and a series of other violent conflicts...ge thanks god.

Originally posted by daedalas

Originally posted by hankyone
just imagine where the world would be right now without religion, HELL!

Acually, If there were no religion the world would be a realtively more peaceful place and a much more advanced society. Come to think of it, all we have to thank relgion for is the an 800 year period were science was heresy (Dark Ages), World war two, the crusades, 9/11 and a series of other violent conflicts...ge thanks god

.

A number of historians would argue that every war in human history had an economic origin - religion is simply a very convenient excuse. The Crusades started as a desperate attempt of a Byzantine emperor who feared the encroaching Turk. Pope Urban preached it as a means of possibly uniting the church - and very likely as a means of keeping the idle military class of knights from killing each other and actually doing some useful massacring. The eager knights of the First Crusade quickly saw the lure of wealth and power (economics) and kind of turned greed into an act of faith. It was pretty convenient excuse.

And to blame the Dark Ages on the Church? The 'dark ages' - a term that has long been out of favor with historians - was a result of the collapse of the Roman Empire of the West. In fact, the preservation of knowledge, the centers of learning, the factories of innovation, the birthplace of agricultural revolutions... all emanated through the monastic system. Monastaries were the centers of knowledge and civilization. The self-sufficient monks introduced numerous technological innovations - crop rotation, animal husbandry techniques, new lines of seeds...the list is literally endless. Charlemagne relied heavily on the monastaries spread throughout his domain and encouraged their growth and development. And this period - the Carolingian rennaissance - was the springboard that would propel feudalism to the burgeoning nation-states of the High Middle Ages and so on and so on.

Finally, as a man who is heavily involved in my parish I see the good that we do every day. My parish operates an active soup kitchen, a food pantry, a heating assistance program, homeless shelters, transitional living programs, and much more. As a member of the Knights of Columbus, I am proud to say that my council has donated tens of thousands of dollars to those in need. The KofC as a whole has donated tens of millions of dollars through our various charity organizations. Our diocese has an active Catholic Charities program that offers a number of vital social services. Our local Catholic Hospital in just one year wrote off over 40 million dollars of services to those who needed medical care but could not pay for it. If the Catholic church decided to fold up our tents and let the government take care of those in need, the strain on the government's social welfare system would bring this nation down in no time at all.

I have friends who are Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, pagans, secular humanists... you name it. If you want to worship a rock, knock yourself out. If you think that the whole religion thing is a crock, party on. God still loves you. Most people of faith I know don't much carry on about those who don't believe in religion. I wonder why the non-believers are so passionate in their non-belief.

Sometimes it IS hard to have faith in organized religion. Like many Catholics, I was dismayed by the spate of sexual abuses among the Catholic clergy. It IS interesting that people have stopped filing claims against the dioceses that aren't as wealthy as they used to be, though.... I am sure that there were priests who were abusive; I blame it on the secularized, socially liberal heirarchy of the sixties and seventies. When bishops and priests claim that evil is 'all in your head', there is trouble. Either they are naive, lack faith, or are agents of the Adversery. I will claim that I know dozens of priests and nuns who are devout, Godly people who have dedicated their lives to the service of God through the humble service of others. I know bishops who maintain their station as a matter of respect for the office and not as self-love. The majesty and heirarchy of the Catholic church binds me to a heritage of 2000 years of brothers and sisters who have gone before me. The rituals, practices, and institutions provide me with inspiration, comfort, and a sence of tradition. The Pope - the successor of Peter, the Rock of the Church - is a tangible sign of the promise the Christ made to us. If this isn't for you, once again - enjoy your trip. I will pray for you all nonetheless... I hope you don't mind.


As always, thank you all for your courteous attention and Bless you.....

Bravo, Shantyman. I couldn't agree more.

It has become somewhat fashionable to dislike "organised religion" (whatever the hell that means), and people are far too eager to focus on the negatives and completely ignore the good work that is done on a daily basis through organisations such as the Salvation Army, Wesley Mission and hundreds of other church-based charities.

Rage against the machine by all means, people, but if your view doesn't contain balance or incorporate all the facts, you don't do yourself (or the subject matter)any favours.

Non church-attenders are pretty sure that Christians are plastic hypocrites who are just using their belief system to excuse their own failings and sit in judgment of others.

Now, tell me how church is different from work or school or a political party or a country club or a night club or any human endeavor.

People will always turn any institution into a popularity contest, where they can laugh at the people they consider outcasts.

Sure, there are a lot of churches like that. There are a lot of bowling leagues like that, too.

MY church isn't like that. It isn't perfect, but the people there are cool with the fact that I don't believe everything the same way they do.

And the church where I go never pressures me about money. They describe what work they are planning to do to feed the poor etc., but no one has ever told me I should be doing more or something. The preacher has never told me to give more, or how to vote or think or anything. As a matter of fact, the preacher has answered some questions with "I don't know," with more intergrity than any other institution I've dealt with.

I compare that with my time in Academia. THAT hell hole is the sorriest collection of unhappy people I've ever met, with the highest suicide rate outside of a mental hospital (which a lot of academic people spend at least some time in, btw.). The lying, the backstabbing, judging and brown-nosing. I saw so many careers ruined, and I saw more witch-hunts in my department than I ever would have thought possible.

And yet, only religion gets the blame. Funny. Some of the posters on this thread sound AT LEAST as judgemental as any TV preacher I ever heard.

Remember, prejudice is deciding a person is bad, without ever having met him. Go back and re-read this thread, and try rating the posts on a scale of 1-10 for prejudice.

Now lets talk some more about narrow-mindedness.
.