US Helicopter Violated Pakistani Airspace

Apparently a US helicopter violated Pakistani airspace friday night. After being warned by the Pakistani side the helicopter "went back".

Daily Times: Pakistan accuses US of violating its airspace

January 30, 2006



Pakistan had to warn off an American helicopter, which violated its airspace above its northern border with Afghanistan, the military said on Sunday. “It was a technical violation,” Pakistani military spokesman Major General Shaukat Sultan told AFP of the incident which happened on Friday night during US anti-insurgent operations in eastern Afghanistan. “After warnings from Pakistan side the helicopter went back,” he said.

I thought Pakistan was an allied in the War On Terror and that US could fly there during "anti-insurgent operations in Afghanistan". I guess I was wrong...

I guess killing Pakistani civilians in missile attacks and threatening Pakistan and India over gas and oil pipeline deals with Iran are starting to strain relations a little

Being an ally does not automatically give the US the right to invade someone elses air/land/sea space on a whim.

Well, if you are an ALLY in this War on Terror, then I guess it should be Nice to ask if US Aircraft Can Penetrate Pakistan Airspace in order to target Terrorist Suspects. Maybe that was the Cause of this Incident.

And a Question:
Can a Radar Detect a Drone, such as it has been used for the Terrorist Assassinations in Pakistan earlier this Month? Are they Detectable by the Avarege Radar Systems, or are they too small and flying to low for that?

The Pakistani Government serves at the pleasure of the President...

...of the United States.

Originally posted by Nerdling
The Pakistani Government serves at the pleasure of the President...

...of the United States.

How True.

If I may Divert the Topic a little bit, to the USA-Pakistani relations after 9-11:

A History of US- Pakistan Relations: Musharraf – 911 and beyond

The US President George Bush asked the world to make a clear choice to side with the US with the slogan “you are with us or against us”. President Musharraf’s regime, which was previously a supporter and backer of the Taliban regime since its inception, made a U-turn and sided with the US in its war against terrorism. Siding with the US, Musharraf betted that the decision would result in improving foreign aid and support from World Bank and IMF on the one hand and US support for Pakistan’s cause for Kashmir on the other.

So - why not really Boost your Eceonomy, instead of Suffering from Sanctions, like for example Iran does? One more Sign, that War on Terror is actually War of PROFITS, and a War for Globalization of the Free Market a Market which does not allow any Rouge States, that want to do Business on their own, without any Shares or Percentage going into the Pockets of Ruling Elite Corpoations. Such Countries - like Venezuela and Iran - that have dared to stand against this War on Profits, are declared as Axis Of Evil and are the Target of the United Global Union.

What could Pakistan really do?

So, if these two countries are really Allies - why these Incidents?

[edit on 30/1/06 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah

So, if these two countries are really Allies - why these Incidents?

Maybe because Pakistan approve the drone attacks but not helos that has American all over it that can be spotted by local villagers, etc. It suppose to be a covert operation against Al Qaida and Taliban in Pakistan. The only helos allowed in was the ones for humanitarian operations after Pakistan and India suffered earthquakes.

The border between Pakistan and Afganistan is quite mountainous its not that unusual for aircraft and men straying over the border. I know with todays tech it shouldnt happen, but its not that un-common.
When i served in Northern Ireland we used to patrol so close to the border between North and South that we from time to time crossed it without knowing.
Perhaps the pilot wasnt aware he had crossed until the Pakistanis advised him to turn back.
I wouldnt read too much into this to be honest.



[edit on 30-1-2006 by Janus]

Originally posted by Britguy
I guess killing Pakistani civilians in missile attacks and threatening Pakistan and India over gas and oil pipeline deals with Iran are starting to strain relations a little

Being an ally does not automatically give the US the right to invade someone elses air/land/sea space on a whim.

I guess terrorists having free rein over so much of a country, and that country not bothering to bring them in or kill them might cause us to send missiles over to do it for them. Terrrorists and the supporters being killed, and unfortunately, some kids, because the hosting nation pays little more than lip service and token efforts.

Great allies. Amounted to the same thing as the downtown lawfirm having the name "Cocheran" on the marquis. For show, and money, only.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

I guess terrorists having free rein over so much of a country, and that country not bothering to bring them in or kill them might cause us to send missiles over to do it for them. Terrrorists and the supporters being killed, and unfortunately, some kids, because the hosting nation pays little more than lip service and token efforts.

In the days of cold war U.S.A used Pakistani soil and nourished Mujahideen for war against USSR in Afghanistan. This was the period and the cause of spread of illegal arms and rise of sectarian militias inside Pakistan, a country with majority Muslim population that had never seen any terrorist activity ever.

It was USA to export trrorism to Pakistani soil in the name of Jihad.


..............Lip service?
.....only deaf, dumb, blind, ignorant and idots can deny Pak efforts against terrorism.


However, Pakistan, like any other sovereign state, does allow any other state including U.S.A to violate its boundaries.
..........Need proof? Remember the fate of USSR aircraft penetrating Pak boundaries in 80s.





chaudri

Originally posted by chaudri

In the days of cold war U.S.A used Pakistani soil and nourished Mujahideen for war against USSR in Afghanistan. This was the period and the cause of spread of illegal arms and rise of sectarian militias inside Pakistan, a country with majority Muslim population that had never seen any terrorist activity ever.

Ooo really? So what about terrorist activities against India? Never seen terrorist activity ever. Whatever.

Originally posted by chaudri

In the days of cold war U.S.A used Pakistani soil and nourished Mujahideen for war against USSR in Afghanistan. This was the period and the cause of spread of illegal arms and rise of sectarian militias inside Pakistan, a country with majority Muslim population that had never seen any terrorist activity ever.

It was USA to export trrorism to Pakistani soil in the name of Jihad.

chaudri

You're not too familiar with the history of Pakistan are you?
Read up on the problems with Baluchistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir and you might feel differently.

As far as the topic of this discussion, there was such a delay in getting approval from Pakistan to strike Bin Laden that by the time the US got the go ahead he had already moved on. That's why the US forces are striking without official public permission now whenever they get good intelligence.

Originally posted by AceOfBase


As far as the topic of this discussion, there was such a delay in getting approval from Pakistan to strike Bin Laden that by the time the US got the go ahead he had already moved on. That's why the US forces are striking without official public permission now whenever they get good intelligence.

Are we so much passimistic?
Can't we trust our friends?
What is a good intelligence?
If we blame others for our own bad intel, are we going to win the war on terrorism?
The poor third world countries donot have necessity, means, finances, plans, human resources, arms, rights and political arousal to go for war against USA, Us has all of these to attack pre-emptively on any country of the world.

Whenever there is a balancing global power in comptetin against USA, this fever of war on terrorism will settle down and USA will be begging for help from the poorest of countries as it did in the days of cold war.





chaudri

Let me remind you of some other violations recently.

The Taliban violated the rights of women...by killing them

The Taliban violated the rights of children...by not allowing them to be educated.

Iran violated the rights of a soveriegn nation..by demanding Isreal be wiped off the map.

Al Qaida violated...well every thing they possibly could by stealing planes and killing the worlds..not just the US, but worlds citizens on Sept 11.

Iran violated the non nuclear accord.

North Korea violated non nuclear accord.

Now, back to Afghanistan and the Taliban

Women in Afghanistan under the Taliban were not allowed to attend school, whereas previously there had been thousands of female students. There were a few home based schools and some schools in rural areas which quietly operated to educate girls.


Women under the Taliban were forbidden to work outside the home, except in limited circumstances in the medical field.


Women under the Taliban were not allowed to deal with men shopkeepers.


Women and girls were not allowed to appear outside the home unless wearing a burqa (a head to toe covering.) Their only vision came from a three inch square opening covered with mesh. The burqa was previously worn, but was not an enforced dress code.


Women were forbidden from appearing in public without a male who was a father, brother or husband.

Women were no longer allowed to use cosmetics.

Women could not wear high-heeled shoes or shoes which produce a noise when walking.

Women could not travel on the same bus as men.

Women were no longer allowed to play sports or enter a sporting club.
Women were banned from wearing brightly colored clothes, since those are sexually appealing.

Women could not laugh loudly (no stranger should hear their voice.)

Windows in houses that had female occupants had to be painted over.

Women’s and girls’ medical access was cut. Female doctors treated women, but that number was greatly reduced.

Taliban militia punished for violations of these rules on the spot. Women had been beaten on the street if an inch of ankle showed under their burqa; if they were found to move about without an explanation acceptable to the Taliban; if they made noise when they walk...

Women were not the only ones abused by the Taliban. Many men suffered, were taken prisoner, killed or they disappeared for actions such as wearing a beard of insufficient length or being of a different ethnicity or political background.

Oh no...we flew a helicopter into their airspace...oh no...shame on us. Maybe a few more missles and armed UAV's are in order huh?

- One Man Short

Originally posted by One Man Short of Manhood
Let me remind you of some other violations recently.

-[snip]-

Oh no...we flew a helicopter into their airspace...oh no...shame on us. Maybe a few more missles and armed UAV's are in order huh?

Oh, what an Ode to Bush Foreign Policy!

Oh, it got me all Fuzzy and Soft inside!

Jokes, aside - a very Nice list, that would make a single non-patriotic person feel very Patriontastic! Anyway, you seem to IGNORE the facts from the Other side of the - the Side that People like you just Love to Ignore.

For example, I shall not write about Many, M A N Y Violations of the US Miliatary Forces upon Civilan Population - but will Instead Focus on a BIG and CLOSE Ally of the Bush Goverment and US of A: Saudi Arabia.

In Saudi Arabia Public theatres and cinemas are prohibited.

In Saudi Arabia has enforced strict laws under a doctrine of Wahabism.

In Saudi Arabia many basic freedoms as described in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights do not exist.

In Saudi Arabia prisoners are Tortured.

In Saudi Arabia Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities.

In Saudi Arabia the Mutaween, or religious police, also known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (you find the same Institution in Afganistan).

In Saudi Arabia the Religious police enforce a modest code of dress, sometimes even asking American Armed Services women to cover their heads

In Saudi Arabia despite the formal prohibiton, stories of slavery and human trafficking continue. They were among the last to outlaw slavery.

In Saudi Arabia Freedom of speech and the press are restricted to forbid criticism of the government or endorsement of "un-Islamic" values.

In Saudi Arabia government officially bans satellite television, but the rule is generally ignored.

In Saudi Arabia Public demonstrations are forbidden.

In Saudi Arabia Trade unions and political organizations are banned.

In Saudi Arabia Freedoms of religion does not exist.

In Saudi Arabia a 14-Year-Old Boy Faces Execution.

In Saudi Arabia women face severe discrimination in many aspects of their lives, including the education, employment, and the justice system.

In Saudi Arabia courts continue to impose corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and lashings for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness.

In Saudi Arabia the number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and is varied according to the discretion of judges, and range from dozens of lashes to several thousand, usually applied over a period of weeks or months.

In Saudi Arabia court can also order a capital punishment, including public executions by beheading and stoning.

In Saudi Arabia 15 schoolgirls died in a fire at their school in Mecca after the mutawa allegedly prevented male rescuers from entering because the girls were not veiled.


And do we see any Drones hovering and firing Missiles at Villagers down below?

And do we see any American Airborne Division Liberating the People of Saudi Arabia from this Terrible and Oprresive Dictatorship rule of the Royal Family?

NOPE.

Why is that Mister One Man Short of Manhood?

Is it MAYBE because Daddy Bush is a BIG Friend of the Saudi Family, which is also an Important member of the Carlyle Group?

It is SO Interesting to observe US Hypochrisy - ESPECIALLY when you see the House of Bush - House of Saud relationship, which could not be Better!

Even IF Saudi Arabia is VIOLATING all of the Points Mentioned Above - they are still BIG Allies of the USA and BIG Friends of the Bush administration.



I guess you don't "Kiss'n'Tell" right?

Maybe you SHOULD fire a Few Missiles their Way...



[edit on 30/1/06 by Souljah]

I am in agreement with you Souljah, a few missles going to Saudi would be a VERY good thing.

Let me take that one step further since you and I agree Souljah.

Missles for Iran

Missles for Iraq

Missles for Yemen

Missles for Oman

Missles for Syria

Missles for Pakistan

Missles for Hamas

Missles for Somalia.

And wouldn't it be great if some of those missles were armed with nukes?

Glad you and I are in agreement Souljah!

quote stated by souljah:

Maybe you SHOULD fire a Few Missiles their Way...

- One Man Short

I noticed another piece of news from the same source as the initial post, Daily Times (Pak). Someone from a terrorist training camp in Pakistan graduated or something. They attacked the first pipeline nearby they could find and blew it up

Daily Times: Gas well and pipeline blown up in Dera Bugti

January 30, 2006


Suspected tribesmen blew up a gas well and gas pipeline early on Sunday in Dera Bugti early on Sunday. Renegade tribesmen also destroyed a pipeline at Uch gas plant near Dera Murad Jamali.

Armed tribesmen came from a training camp near the town and attacked well number 6 and the pipeline in Loti Gas Plant, said Dera Bugti District Coordination Officer Abdul Samad Lasi. He said an 18-feet section of the pipeline was damaged and the well was shut down after the attack.

Originally posted by Souljah
And a Question:
Can a Radar Detect a Drone, such as it has been used for the Terrorist Assassinations in Pakistan earlier this Month? Are they Detectable by the Avarege Radar Systems, or are they too small and flying to low for that?

In answer to this question, yes and no. Yes they CAN be picked up, but it's very very difficult most times. There are some stealthy drones out there as well. That's one reason drones are used, is because they're harder to detect, and a lot cheaper if they ARE detected and shot down, and you don't lose anyone.

oneman & souljah,
you agree on something, congratulations.

But dear oneman the thread is about violation of Pakistan airspace.

Pakistan has never been governed by Taliban. And I donot think Pak people like Taliban.

1979 onwards: It was USA to provide the material and patronize the idealogy of Jihad gainst USSR in Afghanistan, which was actually extremism, now labelled as terrorism by the USA.

1990: USSR was annihilated, USA fled away, slept and the seeds of extremism/terrorism bore the fruit of Taliban. Pakistan, geographic neighbour of Afghanistan, had to co-exist with Taliban.

9/11 onwards: Pakistan a staunch supporter of war on terrorism. Above seven hundred Al-qaeda activists captured by Pak forces, with negligible civillian casualities. Most of those captured handed over to USA for interrogation.

US helos enter Pak airspace, fire missiles and kill dozens of civillians.
Pak government launches protest and warns not to repeat such incidences, and vows to continue using Pak defence forces to search and capture the terrorists.

You call for missiles with nuke warheads that way to Pakistan.

Oneman,
Explain your position, you are friend of whom, Taliban or Pakistan.

If USA acts as you agree, is it trust worthy as friend, as world leader, as democracy, as civilized and responsible nation. Why not to refer the case to UN for disarming such a dangerous administration and make a global alliace to topple it?

Iran vows to wipe out Israel and world cries with pain in heart. You name more than 8 countries to be nuked! And all Muslims! Are you 'terrorist of the other kind'.




chaudri

Originally posted by chaudri
Pakistan has never been governed by Taliban. And I donot think Pak people like Taliban.

1990: USSR was annihilated, USA fled away, slept and the seeds of extremism/terrorism bore the fruit of Taliban. Pakistan, geographic neighbour of Afghanistan, had to co-exist with Taliban.

If the Pakistani people don't like the Taliban, how come many Pakistanis went to help fight just weeks after 9/11 when the Taliban called for help? And also, Pakistan helped create the Taliban, they didnt have to co exist. Remember that Pakistan helped provide manpower and resources for the Taliban to take over most of Afghanistan. Back then, no Afghan faction has total control.

Taliban were indeed less evil than the warring lords after pull out of of USSR army.

USA at that time did not do well. It was criminal to leave Afghanistan ruined and burning under hundreds of war lords. Had USA not turned back on its evil creatures then, there would have been no 9/11.

Immediately after fall of USSR, USA greedily entered mideast for OIL, in the disguise of liberator for Kuwait.

The extremism harboured by USA in Afghanistan and the Arab nationalism nourished by Israeli activites with thorough support from USA lead to emergence of Al-qaeda.

In this game Pakistan was a spectator, it was the game planned, started and played badly by USA.

AS YOU SOW, SO SHALL YOU REEP.

US should have hired wiser persons to tackle in those days, and EVEN NOW.







chaudri