HAMAS to Form Palestinian Army

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
I fully recognize what might happen in a nascent Palestinian government-- my entire point is that Israel and the US have already made it quite clear by their rhetoric that they are not going to even consider ANY possibilities other than overt and continuing hostility, which will ensure just that.

I would beg to strongly differ. The US position is simply what I stated it was: a matter of recognition, a/the recognition of a political and valid entity and not one formally deemed and recognized as a terrorist organization. The US has flatly stated that if Hamas is to be properly recognized, that they must DISAVOW what they have long AVOWED. The US, as with many other nations, do not deal with terrorists, simple as that, and despite Hamas being elected to lead Palestinians into the future, they are still recognized as a terrorist organization. The olive branch was extended by the US in one simple request: DISAVOW what you have AVOWED for so long--the utter destruction of Israel. Simply put: Recognize the right of Israel to exist and "we" [the US] will be open to talk.

I find it difficult to fathom or understand that you expect the US, or Israel, to bend over backwards to deal with a democratically elected terrorist organization. The US has taken the step to do so, by asking/demanding that Hamas simply, for the third time, DISAVOW what they have long AVOWED.

Obviously, while your pointing the finger at the US and Israel, Hamas continues to show its hand and and real intentions, and their intentions will further hinder the peace process, the will of the Palestinian peoples' desire for better change, and hamper their chances for a Palestinian state. Ironic, huh? Tomorrow, while you are still pointing at the US and Israel, Hamas will be doing what to better the situation for the Palestinian people and the situation between Israel?

I will urge my last three sons to be martyrs, vows newly elected delegate
Hamas Says It Will Not Change

Personally, the longer Hamas keeps talking rhetorical crap, the longer I [the US and Israel and other nations] would postpone recognition of them as a democratically elected political entity, the longer their leadership would remain under the watchful crosshairs of the IDF, and the sooner they will go bankrupt. Then what for Hamas and the Palestinian people?






seekerof

[edit on 28-1-2006 by Seekerof]

seekerof
The Israeli military has been assassinating Hamas leaders and rocketing the crap out of buildings and hideouts for like five years non-stop, and it's only made the party stronger, and gave it more widespread, mainstream appeal.

Given those results, don't you think a different course of action might be worth consideration?

The answer to your question is given by me already, WrydeOne:

Originally posted by seekerof
Personally, the longer Hamas keeps talking rhetorical crap, the longer I [the US and Israel and other nations] would postpone recognition of them as a democratically elected political entity, the longer their leadership would remain under the watchful crosshairs of the IDF, and the sooner they will go bankrupt.

And likewise, WrydeOne, Hamas has long been targeting and killing Israeli citizens to get Israel to concede to whatever, has it worked and is it not about time that HAMAS changed its own course of actions? And btw, what gave Hamas strong mainstream appeal was that they promised to make changes for the betterment of the Palestinian people, not to continue the same ole' course of actions. As the days go on, we are seeing exactly what Hamas' real meaning of change and betterment is, huh?





seekerof

[edit on 28-1-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
If the US and Israel really wanted a viable Palestinian government and peace in the region they'd work to make it easier for the Palestinians to create just that.

Just as Hamas, Iran, and Syria are doing, huh?

Oh please. That's one of the most tired fallacies in the entire realm of debate. I know it's a common one online, but surely a WATS winner should know better. Personally I haven't used the "Oh yeah, well look at what _____ is doing" defense since I was a kid, and it didn't work then either.

You might find this a worthwhile read, since of course, you are continually referencing the US in relation to a Israeli-Palestinian peace?
Saudis: U.S. paved way for Hamas victory

Yes-- interesting indeed.

Given that Hamas operates "extensive social services infrastructure that includes schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, and soup kitchens," basic services that the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat and later Abbas, often failed to provide anything approaching Hamas' services.

Additionally, Hamas' reputation for financial probity, are in contrast to perceived Fatah corruption and incompetence.

"American policies in the region, especially its unfettered support for Israel and its designation of Hamas as a terror organization, complicate the situation, and demonstrate that the Bush administration is clearly out of touch. Thus, they are unable to understand the situation from the Palestinian perspective," states the Saudi report.

And since Hamas [Meshal] has re-affirmed that they will continue to carry out attacks against Israel and Israeli civilains, peace and the interests of the Palestinian people are being met where exactly, Bob LaoTse?

I'd like to see a source for that assertion. The only link you've provided (in your later post here) leads with the statement that Hamas will not renounce violence, but in the body of the article cites as its source "an up-and-coming young Hamas leader." I sincerely doubt that this "up-and-coming young Hamas leader" speaks for the entire government, and even more sincerely doubt that international policy should be based on his words.

The fact is that Hamas is going to have to walk very delicately if they wish to maintain the support of the Palestinians AND assuage the suspicions of the rest of the world. There's truly no reason to believe that they won't do just that, and to condemn them TODAY for having failed to jump through every hoop that the west has placed in front of them is irresponsible at best.

It just seems a bit early to start banging the drums of war, unless of course war is one's only goal...


Here's a bit of interesting reading I found while trying to find a source for your assertion that Meshaal himself has, since the elections, re-affirmed that Hamas will continue to carry out attacks against Israel. Enter Hamas

Originally posted by Seekerof
Tomorrow, while you are still pointing at the US and Israel, Hamas will be doing what to better the situation for the Palestinian people and the situation between Israel?

I have no idea what Hamas will do tomorrow, nor do I pretend to. My entire point is that NEITHER DO YOU. You believe that you know what they're going to do, and you're ready to maintain a war footing with the Palestinian people based solely on your belief regarding the future actions of a newly-elected foreign government. You don't KNOW what they're going to do any more than I do, but at least I admit it.

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
Hamas is expected to not only stop promoting violence, but to stop the violence altogether. They're not only to stop sponsoring violence, but to somehow prevent individuals from engaging in violence. What do you think the odds are that they'll be able to do so in light of the complete elimination of foreign aid and diplomatic relations?

Why is this impossible? They can achieve this by

1. Formally renouncing their charter which calls for the elimination of Israel, and sticking with their new committment
   
2. Formally condemning any violence by individuals or factions, and seriously working to track them down and eliminate them
   

Hamas is no longer soley a military organization. They are now a political party that has been democratically elected. They must put down their weapons as the first method of problem resolution, and start learning diplomacy instead.

If they are sincere in their actions, then the aid will return. Otherwise, they will get what they deserve.

Thought ya'll might find this interesting!

NOTE - the Hamas Oath declares that ANY peace discussions are
not to be entered into. It also declares the Lion's club and Rotary
club to be Sabatoge groups.

The Hamas "Martyr's Oath"
( www.newsmax.com... )

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious...The
Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and
more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is
vanquished and Allah's victory is realized...

"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day
of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the
Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say O
Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him...'

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time
and vain endeavors.

"The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way
of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the
enemies...

"The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion... It relies greatly in its infiltration
and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such
as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage
groups. "

"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. 'May the
cowards never sleep.'"

Wait...

Why are they not allowed an Army?

Is it because, you dislike what they stand for and believe in? Surely, other people dislike the U.S, U.K, Israeli, Australia and so on and so fourth having an Army...we don't lay down and stop it for them. Do we?

Also last I checked, over the last 10 years we've been doing a fair bit of invading with our military...

Originally posted by Odium
Wait...

Why are they not allowed an Army?

Is it because, you dislike what they stand for and believe in? Surely, other people dislike the U.S, U.K, Israeli, Australia and so on and so fourth having an Army...we don't lay down and stop it for them. Do we?

Also last I checked, over the last 10 years we've been doing a fair bit of invading with our military...

Hypothetical situation: If, lets say Country X. If Country X was building an army with the sole purpose of violence againts the UK, an ally of the US, should the US step in?

The US military's or any other country's (UK, Israel, Australia etc) mission isnt to attack tiny little countries for no other reason other than we hate how diverse they are.

Originally posted by OdiumWait...

Why are they not allowed an Army?

Forgetting about the reality of might brings right?

Considering that human nature hasn't changed, they will be rebuked for posing a threat to the current power structure.

Now explain to me how it can be changed, is what I want to know.







[edit on 29-1-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by punkmonkey14
The US military's or any other country's (UK, Israel, Australia etc) mission isnt to attack tiny little countries for no other reason other than we hate how diverse they are.

A) Israel isn't "diverse" compared to many Nation's.
B) We've done a vast majority of invading, for hundreds of years.

When Palestine becomes a State, it has the right to a military. To deny it such a thing, will bring more resentment against the West and more terrorism. Hamas and the State of Palestine, can not invade and conquer Israel without massive support from other Nation's...and this won't work then, because Israel would have the support of the West.

However, with a military the peace-process will be helped.

You do not make peace with a friend, but with an Enemy and that is what Hamas are.

I find the overwhelming response by Palestinians in choosing their new Hamas leadership something to laugh about.

It is funny that the so call "Terrorist" are now in charge, I guess the war in terror is just making more "Terrorist" come into power.

I guess Israel will have to start directing their attentions and their nuclear weapons from Iran to Palestine.

Because they are going to have a very hot spot right next to them hotter than has been in years.

I wonder what Bush is going to do now, should he bomb Iran or should he bomb Palestine.

I guess Israel don't need help they got nuclear power and plenty of weapons to vanish Palestine out of the middle east at the first sign of trouble.

I thing the middle east is starting to become more volatile that ever before.

Iran troubles are not as bad as they may seem now with Hamas role of power right next to Israel.

I imagine that this will be if . . . Palestine survive their now increasing power struggle from within.

Let see who unleash the nuclear power first.

It is kind of Interesting to watch all this Debats and Discussions over the results of Palestinian elections, and the Surprise win of Hamas. Actually nobody sees behind the Scenes of the Isreali Middle Eastern POLITRICKS, and how they Installed a Trojan Horse, named Hamas among the Palestinian People.

I have Posted this already in another Thread related to this Topic, yet I got no answers to it - it was systematicly IGNORED. So I come again.

Puppet On A String: Hamas Dances To Israel’s Tune

“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.”

“Sharon is conducting a vicious psychological operation inside Israel, to secure popular support for a war by staging continuous terror scares. One Israeli businessman confirmed that almost nightly, Israeli police enter restaurants, hotels, shops, etc., ordering patrons to evacuate due to "bomb threats." The businessman, a former Mossad official, was told by Israeli authorities that the scares are in almost all cases hoaxes, perpetrated to traumatize the public into accepting any anti-Arab military actions.”

Again - who BENEFITS by this Victory of Hamas, which is known by the US, EU, UN and Russia as a Terrorist Organization?

Palestinian People?

Hamas, Son of Israel

Likewise, the victory of Hamas will embolden the ultra-Zionists in Israel, who similarly mix a fanatic theology with faith in a military "solution" to the Palestinian "problem." The electoral victory of Hamas was only a few hours old before Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu went on television explaining why any concessions to the Palestinians – including the Gaza pullback – only served to embolden the most radical elements, such as Hamas.

I guess Bush Divine mission of installing democratic states in the middle east, has to debate how to deal with what is obvious the expressed words of the Palestinian people.

Now let’s no forget that under the last Palestinian rule the country was under a very extensive state of poverty

People always tend to blame the regime in power to their fate, but where all the foreign aid went during that time?

Can Palestine survive a withdraw of foreign help? Who will suffer? We all know the answer to that.

When people are oppressed or poor they become violent in order to direct their feelings to something else.

Will Israel be the target?

Again perhaps now Hamas can bring something better to power than what US and other countries believe they are “Just another terrorist organization” but while that was ok for a while and sold very well for propaganda it may not be the right way to deal with such this group now.

We have to be realistic Hamas and Palestine does not have any power over radical groups in the area.

No matter the intentions of one leader over the other are always groups that do not agree with a particular situation.

Palestine will never be militarily enough to defeat an attack from Israel or the US perhaps letting this people come to terms is the best way to go.

And perhaps this is what you get when you sleep with the enemy and decided that the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

Bob LaoTse:

Just thought I'd say that you and a few others seem to be the only ones here who seems to have any common sense.

I'd recommend the "doom people" grab a bit of common sense before they make stupid statements that only embarrass's themselves.

With all the reading I have done in the last few days (and learning) re Palestine/Israel, there are a number of things I find amazing:

1) I found it unbelievable how Israel is grabbing more Palestinian land by building the "wall" inside the green line - the same line that the Israeli government agreed was Palestian land back in 1948.

2) I find it even more unbelievable that the US and Israel make agressive statements even before giving Hamas a chance to make any statements of their own.

3) Another thing is that people are saying "the Palestinians have killed themselves etc etc"; however you will find that Hamas did a lot of civil construction and that *maybe* the Palestinians elected Hamas because of the civil work and were sick of corruption in the Fatah group.

4) and lastly, I find it amazing how people are misquoting quotes to support their own "belief system".

I only wish you could filter posts on ATS that excluded any form of common sense.

I say give peace a chance - as well as Hamas.

Now, here's my two predictions:

Postitive prediction:

1) Hamas, with the guidance of whoever, will form a reasonably stable government and come to some arrangements so that all live in peace. So far they're doing fine - they are forming an army to provide stability and dicipline among the militant groups - this one's a no-brainer and a good start as far as I'm concerned.

Negative prediction:

2) Israel's military targets Palestine for a "petty reason" and then other Muslim countries decide to back Palestine. The shlt hits the fan and we say hello to Gog/Magog.

Prob. a 50/50 chance of either happening, however I'm hoping for the former.

Cheers

JS

[edit on 29-1-2006 by jumpspace]

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
Hamas is expected to not only stop promoting violence, but to stop the violence altogether. They're not only to stop sponsoring violence, but to somehow prevent individuals from engaging in violence. What do you think the odds are that they'll be able to do so in light of the complete elimination of foreign aid and diplomatic relations?

Why is this impossible?

I'm sorry-- maybe I misread my own post, but I just can't find the word "impossible" anywhere other than in your response.

They can achieve this by

1. Formally renouncing their charter which calls for the elimination of Israel, and sticking with their new committment
   
2. Formally condemning any violence by individuals or factions, and seriously working to track them down and eliminate them
   

How long do they have to formally renounce their charter and track down and eliminate violent individuals? I mean, it's been all of five days now,and the sabre rattlers hereabouts are set to go to war already. Do they get another couple of days? Hours? Minutes? Is it already too late? And how long do they have to stick with their new commitment before it counts? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? And what happens in the meantime? Will there be any resumption of foreign aid or diplomatic relations, or will they continue to be cut off until the designated time has passed?

Actually, they won't be entirely cut off from foreign aid.

Saudis: US paved way for Hamas Victory

As the primary regional supporter of the Palestinian cause, Saudi Arabia finds it has a unique moral responsibility to insure that humanitarian needs of the Palestinians continue to be met, particularly given the distinct possibility that U.S. and European Union funds are under threat of being suspended now that Hamas will be in power.

"A victory by Hamas presents a challenge to Saudi Arabia in that this financial support will likely need to be increased if the U.S. and Europe reduce or refuse to support a Hamas-controlled Palestinian government," says the brief.

So the Saudis are already preparing to step in and provide the assistance that the west is set to refuse. And that's going to help the west exactly how? We're not only going to further alienate the Palestinians-- we're going to give them even more reason to ally themselves with the Wahabbists? We could have an opportunity to strengthen relationships with the Palestinians and with Hamas, and we're going to refuse to take that opportunity and instead FORCE them even further toward Islamic fundamentalism, and all this in the name of fighting terrorism?

Hamas is no longer soley a military organization. They are now a political party that has been democratically elected.

Exactly, which is why they should be treated as one. IF they continue to act as a military organization, THEN we should treat them as such. To prejudge them and to treat them as the enemy before they've even had a chance to demonstrate their true intentions is so obviously counterproductive that I'm genuinely astounded that any thinking person could advocate it as a course of action. Treating someone as an enemy simply guarantees that they will be.

Of course, that makes perfect sense if one's desire is specifically to guarantee that they WILL be an enemy. And since the US and Israel both operate on a permanent war footing, and the focus of that war footing is the Middle East, guaranteeing that Palestine not only remains a threat, but becomes an even greater one, is exactly what one should expect them to do.

This really isn't even about the Palestinians or Hamas-- it's about the US and Israel doing whatever is necessary to continue to justify war in the Middle East. A Hamas-led government isn't to be treated an an enemy despite the fact that that will prevent a peaceful resolution to the situation, but because it will do that.

Thanks for the links. Honestly, none of that is the least bit surprising.

That's part of the point I've been trying to make here. Superficially it appears to be ridiculously counter-productive for the west to treat the newly elected Palestinian government as the enemy before they've even had an opportunity to prove themselves otherwise, but that treatment makes perfect sense if one assumes that the desire of the western governments is specifically to guarantee that the Palestinians WILL be our enemies.

Right now, the west is the guy in the bar saying, "Whatchoo lookin at!? You lookin' at ME? Are YOU LOOKIN' AT ME!?"

They're just daring Hamas to hit them, specifically so that they can say, "See, we told you so!" and go fight the war they so desperately want to fight.

This is actually a strategy that has served the US well in the past-- nations from Vietnam to El Salvador to Iraq have become targets for US attacks by a policy of first isolating them, which has the combined benefit of building popular resentment of the US and driving them to seek aid from our "enemies," then attacking them based either on their resentment of the US or their alliance with our enemies. The amazing thing to me is that so many people still don't see it for what it is.

...and to assuage my guilt at having had a part in dragging it off-topic in the first place.

I'm curious as to how it is that others think Hamas should go about eliminating the attacks on Israel, limiting the power of the militias and legitimizing themselves, in light of their existing military structure, in any way OTHER than by forming a national army? Are they to just contact all of the militia members and tell them to turn in their weapons and go home? Does anybody think that would work? Really?

It seems to me that the most obvious course of action for them is specifically to take their existing military system, put them all in uniforms and subject them to direct government control. What other choice do they really have?

[edit on 29-1-2006 by Bob LaoTse]

Originally posted by jumpspace
Bob LaoTse:

Just thought I'd say that you and a few others seem to be the only ones here who seems to have any common sense.

With all the reading I have done in the last few days (and learning) re Palestine/Israel, there are a number of things I find amazing:

2) I find it even more unbelievable that the US and Israel make agressive statements even before giving Hamas a chance to make any statements of their own.

Hamas has made statements of their own; you just haven't been listening:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Following their resounding election victory, the Islamic militants of Hamas met the question of whether they will change their stripes with a loud "no": no recognition of Israel, no negotiations, no renunciation of terror.

Business (terror) as usual

Emphasis added
They have made their intentions openly public. You can choose to ignore it if you want; I don't know how much clearer they could be.

Source originally posted by Seekerof.

[edit on 29-1-2006 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
I'm sorry-- maybe I misread my own post, but I just can't find the word "impossible" anywhere other than in your response.

So what? The very tone of your post makes it sound like the west is putting an unfair and unjust burden on Hamas.

They can achieve this by

1. Formally renouncing their charter which calls for the elimination of Israel, and sticking with their new committment
   
2. Formally condemning any violence by individuals or factions, and seriously working to track them down and eliminate them
   

How long do they have to formally renounce their charter and track down and eliminate violent individuals? I mean, it's been all of five days now,and the sabre rattlers hereabouts are set to go to war already. Do they get another couple of days? Hours? Minutes? Is it already too late? And how long do they have to stick with their new commitment before it counts?

They can do the first item immediately. They can take care of the second by announcing that terror will not be tolerated, and then react on a case-by-case basis. As far as how long they are required to behave, well that's kind of a silly question, isn't it?

Actually, they won't be entirely cut off from foreign aid.

Saudis: US paved way for Hamas Victory

As the primary regional supporter of the Palestinian cause, Saudi Arabia finds it has a unique moral responsibility to insure that humanitarian needs of the Palestinians continue to be met, particularly given the distinct possibility that U.S. and European Union funds are under threat of being suspended now that Hamas will be in power.

"A victory by Hamas presents a challenge to Saudi Arabia in that this financial support will likely need to be increased if the U.S. and Europe reduce or refuse to support a Hamas-controlled Palestinian government," says the brief.

This is good news. Then the Saudis can foot the bill for once, instead of it being the US paying the tab. They can afford it.

We're not only going to further alienate the Palestinians-- we're going to give them even more reason to ally themselves with the Wahabbists? We could have an opportunity to strengthen relationships with the Palestinians and with Hamas, and we're going to refuse to take that opportunity and instead FORCE them even further toward Islamic fundamentalism, and all this in the name of fighting terrorism?

Bad behavior should not be rewarded. When Hamas renounces terrorism then they will be rewarded. Until then, no. And the aid should be doled out on a monthly basis.

Hamas is no longer soley a military organization. They are now a political party that has been democratically elected.

Exactly, which is why they should be treated as one. IF they continue to act as a military organization, THEN we should treat them as such. To prejudge them and to treat them as the enemy before they've even had a chance to demonstrate their true intentions is so obviously counterproductive that I'm genuinely astounded that any thinking person could advocate it as a course of action. Treating someone as an enemy simply guarantees that they will be.

My God, man, how much plainer does it have to be for you? Throughout this thread there have been numerous examples of Hamas' vow to continue terrorism and refusal to negotiate with Israel. You choose to ignore those vows, and to blame the US and Israel while apologizing for Hamas.