Earth from an ALIEN's Perspective

Let's say scientists discover a new planet that is only twice as far away from us as the distance to the moon. The planet has some sort of natural "cloaking device" (far-fetched, I know... just stick with me) that has kept it invisible to Earth since our beginning. NASA sends robots up to "Cloaka" (fictional planet's name) and they observe something INCREDIBLE: Intelligent Life! Let's say these beings are just as advanced as we were in 1900.

This brings us to our first question: Do we observe, or do we make contact? Do we share with these beings our technology to help bring them into an advanced age? Or do we hang back and watch them go about their everyday lives, documenting every step of the way?

Here's the next question I want you all to think long and hard about: How would you feel about being the first human to make contact with another race, who is very likely to kill you out of fear the second you show your face? How would you go about doing this in a smoothly controlled fashion? Would you try to keep your existence a secret?

Wouldn't it make sense to contact the "higher ups" of these beings, so as not to alarm the entire population?

Think about it for a second.

[edit on 1/28/2006 by idbltrl001]

depending on how advanced they are in whats beyond their world, and what their beliefs are, they might see us as "gods" instead of just another race from another planet.

i think that sums it up right there. And the alien race slowley gave the governments of the planet new technology to improve their existance, the governments of the planet exposed the aliens in movies,music,television and other means of getting through to them in hopes of telling the people about the aliens in the future.

Here's the next question I want you all to think long and hard about: How would you feel about being the first human to make contact with another race, who is very likely to kill you out of fear the second you show your face? How would you go about doing this in a smoothly controlled fashion? Would you try to keep your existence a secret?

Wouldn't it make sense to contact the "higher ups" of these beings, so as not to alarm the entire population?

Think about it for a second.

I bolded the part I am questioning. Why do you assume this civilization would be violent? Maybe their cloaking device would be assumed to indicate this. Also you are using the term "race" but I think you might mean "species". Is it a race of purple-colored humans? If so, then that's a race issue. If they are natives of another planet, they're probably another species.

This is an important question, because every species, can then have a subset of "racism" applied to the braches of certain physical traits within that species. If you look at a civilization or culture, you can observe how predominant racism is, and this will then lead to other observations.

Anyway, if as you say "cloaka" is tech-enabled circa 1900 (except for the cloaking device), then you'd have to tread very carefully, because they are approaching a severe spike in their technology curve. Soon, cloaka (like Earthlings) will be able to blow themselves up with large weapons.

So, the larger question would be, has this civilization discovered how to split the atom yet. Because if the answer is no, then the obvious path of "Contact" would be directly to their physics community. You could then determine how far along those scientists are. You could find one or two that like to read sci-fi novels and make contact with them. Notice I did not say that you have to reveal your motives for doing this.

However, if you'saying they already have nuke technology, and have figured out how to unite planetarily without blowing themselves up, then I'd say we should learn from them.

So I am using your analogy to ask a larger question, and it is this:

What is the average time-distance between a civilization's discovery of industry and its discovery of atomic fisson? If one assumes the Drake equation (millions of populated Earth-like planets), then this golden question will tell you a lot about whatever civilization you are considering messing with.

You are asking, "Wouldn't an alien be very, very careful if approaching Earth? Wouldn't they go to the President or people in power?" I think the answer is yes, simply because in our world, atomic fission is controlled by the elites. Making contact through the tech-dominant tribe of a planet is always the safest, if not always the most honest, path. So yes, it is fairly possible that ET would go to the elites and make contact through that channel.

It is an interesting question, because if one accepts that ET is working with the elites, then one can easily accept that ET is also a zero-sum arsehole like the elites. I am not so sure ET wants to share. People are so amazed by humanity's cruelty to itself, but they assume ET to be godlike and benevolent. I think there's a mental-disconnect when people associate space-going powers with some communal-species-epiphany or utopia which then enables that civilization to achieve spacetravel. Evil can unite for spacetravel just as easily as good, I imagine.

In fact, I'd have to say that in your example of a cloaked planet, I'd have to assume that the entire civilization wants to be left alone, and so why would I make contact at all. I'd say I'd have to defer to the so-called "Prime Directive" policy of not interfering with civilizations until they reach a certain level of sophistication. I would not want to provoke them, if they are as desirous of solitude as you say.

To answer the first part of your question, no, I don't think it's wrong to simply observe them. That's the risk a civilization takes when they enjoy the night sky from ANY planet.


[edit on 28-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

a very very loud beacon in space with very strange social structures and attitudes.

I say don't give them our technology, they will destroy themselves in due time.

Yes these beings can be dangerous and they will not let a good prize get away, they would hide us away and lock us up, best to avoid contact, except with a very few.
Also to bring back samples, like DNA and minerals, but do it without being seen.

If they for some reason they developed a weapon that could destroy everything, that may be a good time to intervene, or at least give them hints there are beings out there of superior technology.

So at what point is the Prime Directive violated?

i would invade. When their technolgy matures they will no doubt discover us and take action to explore us. We should go to them, show our supremacy and take what we need to remain a dominat species in the solar system. better that than them coming after us.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Why do you assume this civilization would be violent? Maybe their cloaking device would be assumed to indicate this.

If the cloaking is natural, as the OP stated, the Cloakans might not be aware of its existence or effect.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
What is the average time-distance between a civilization's discovery of industry and its discovery of atomic fisson?

There are no useful answers to that question at present. Historians' quarrels aside, there is only one accepted history - that of our own civilization. Thus the best 'average' we have is the time we took to go from industry to fission. Moreover, the question assumes that most civilizations progress similarly to our own. Development from industrialization through atomic energy might occur in some completely different sequence or might not occur at all.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
If one assumes the Drake equasion (millions of populated Earth-like planets), then this golden question will tell you a lot about whatever civilization you are considering messing with.

The Drake equation does not predict any number of civilizations. The Drake equation is merely a postulation of the factors that would be used to make such an estimate. Most of the factors are so open to speculation (e.g. "expected lifetime of a civilization") that actual, reasonable predictions range from virtually zero to millions.

Originally posted by SecretAsianMan

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Why do you assume this civilization would be violent? Maybe their cloaking device would be assumed to indicate this.

If the cloaking is natural, as the OP stated, the Cloakans might not be aware of its existence or effect.

Thank you for pointing that out for me! See how the little details make a big difference?

[edit on 1/28/2006 by idbltrl001]

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Why do you assume this civilization would be violent? Maybe their cloaking device would be assumed to indicate this.

If the cloaking is natural, as the OP stated, the Cloakans might not be aware of its existence or effect.

Okay, so now I see the original poster's idea better. These Cloakans are innocent to their loneliness until we make ourselves known. They are not hostile.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
What is the average time-distance between a civilization's discovery of industry and its discovery of atomic fisson?

There are no useful answers to that question at present. Historians' quarrels aside, there is only one accepted history - that of our own civilization. Thus the best 'average' we have is the time we took to go from industry to fission. Moreover, the question assumes that most civilizations progress similarly to our own. Development from industrialization through atomic energy might occur in some completely different sequence or might not occur at all.

I don't know about the last part, though I don't refute the rest.

It seems to me, that discovery of industry (and by industry I mean engineered machines replacing human workers or ordering workers to serve machinery as opposed to vice-versa) would lead necessarily to fission-tech at some date. If there are no disruptions of a civilization, surely an innate curiosity (which I am presuming the Cloakans have?) would cause it to be discovered. Fission tech seems to be a verifiable rung on the tech ladder, is what I'm saying.

So then, if they're truly innocent ad their tech is only circa 1900, then I'd say it'd be best to just observe them and hopefully guide them through subtle means toward a non-violent or non-self-destructive arrangement for fissionable items.

The Drake equation does not predict any number of civilizations. The Drake equation is merely a postulation of the factors that would be used to make such an estimate. Most of the factors are so open to speculation (e.g. "expected lifetime of a civilization") that actual, reasonable predictions range from virtually zero to millions.

The component you speak of, Life of Civilization, is minor, and is a poor attempt to refute what is a fairly logical presumption.


N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L


R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp is the fraction of those stars which have planets
ne is average number of planets which can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop life
fi is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc is the fraction of the above which are willing and able to communicate
L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization


Now as you mention, "L" is a key component, and I found this piece from the Wikipedia Drake Equation discussion page to be interesting:

[click the 'discussion' tab at the top...]

Is there any source discussing what Drake meant by an estimate of 10 years as the value of L? Does such a pessimistic view reflect the fact that he was living during the Cold War, or did he think that in general a civilization that develops interplanetary communications will wipe itself out within 10 years? I mean, it took us humans decades to go from understanding light and using radio, to detonating a nuclear weapon.

Yes, I think it's at least generally assumed that he was thinking of nuclear annihilation. BTW we actually detonated a nuclear weapon before the development of our first radio system that had any reasonable chance of communicating with an interstellar civilisation (Trinity test in 1945, Jodrell Bank opened in 1947). Securiger 12:12, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Securiger here. In fact, Drake felt that most civilizations would destroy themselves with atomic fission. What is your point then, regarding the unreliability of L? If it goes on longer, that only increases the chance of contact, and is a boon to his equation.


[edit on 28-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

What to do with a civilisation similar to the 1900s on Earth? If they are just as devious, cruel and greedy as humans are here, I'D SEND A FRIGGIN HYDROGEN BOMB ON THEIR PLANET so they all die for good!

This universe is too wonderful for having one more race of violent, self-destructive parasites like us keep on making catastrophies out of their existence.

I suppose that if the aliens have come already, and that they truly have higher moral standards than most of us here, they surely already left us behind, or either they are secretly enslaving us as a race of inferior beings, unable, as Socrates said of slaves, "to withold Reason, even if able to perceive it".

[edit on 28/1/06 by Echtelion]

[edit on 28/1/06 by Echtelion]

I do not believe this can be decided by any one individual. I think it would take much thought, monitoring, organising by a group or council of people specifically appointed to matters of this kind.

We would have to moniter them over time and estimate any possible reaction they may have. It might also be best to wait until they are civilized enough to posativly encounter us, unless its urgent. But all in all we would have to have some kind of motive for actually contacting. In the end we may learn that giving technology to underdeveloped societies could be harmful to them, or have other negative aftereffects.

Originally posted by Echtelion
I suppose that if the aliens have come already, and that they truly have higher moral standards than most of us here, they surely already left us behind, or either they are secretly enslaving us as a race of inferior beings, unable, as Socrates said of slaves, "to withold Reason, even if able to perceive it".

If that were true then they would be no better than us.

Originally posted by idbltrl001
Let's say scientists discover a new planet that is only twice as far away from us as the distance to the moon. The planet has some sort of natural "cloaking device" (far-fetched, I know... just stick with me) that has kept it invisible to Earth since our beginning. NASA sends robots up to "Cloaka" (fictional planet's name) and they observe something INCREDIBLE: Intelligent Life! Let's say these beings are just as advanced as we were in 1900.

This brings us to our first question: Do we observe, or do we make contact? Do we share with these beings our technology to help bring them into an advanced age? Or do we hang back and watch them go about their everyday lives, documenting every step of the way?

Here's the next question I want you all to think long and hard about: How would you feel about being the first human to make contact with another race, who is very likely to kill you out of fear the second you show your face? How would you go about doing this in a smoothly controlled fashion? Would you try to keep your existence a secret?

Wouldn't it make sense to contact the "higher ups" of these beings, so as not to alarm the entire population?

Think about it for a second.

[edit on 1/28/2006 by idbltrl001]

very interesting idea.........ok for example .....we never knew about Mars...i

know impossible.....but we discover Mars and there are aliens like us....but

they were like us in year 1900...[like you said]....i know we would not go

out there and advance them....why?...We have hard time getting out of

this planet...and we dont have that great techonology......and all the wars

and not enough resources. We won't have enough resources to give to

them.....were not ready....and we will also have to worry about them killing

us and etc.....ofcourse we will bring our guns....but were not going there to

kill them...but to help them...so i cant see this happening....like those UFO..

they probably testing much stuff as possible before they come invade this

Earth or help us.................

thats all

bye

Originally posted by smallpeeps
What is your point then, regarding the unreliability of L? If it goes on longer, that only increases the chance of contact, and is a boon to his equation.

No point specifically with L; it was just an example.

My point is that at present the Drake equation yields no certain estimate on the number of civilizations. The values of ne, fl, fi, fc, and L are completely speculative, so any calculation depending upon them - including N - is also speculative. The primary use of the Drake equation, then, is to propose the factors on which N depends. For instance, N depends on the rate of star formation, but not on the number of Happy Meals sold in Schenectady. Therefore researchers should be concerned with the former but not the latter.

Source: Wikipedia

Responding to Two Questions:

First answer, you are correct in the location of the Alien planet. But wrong on its plane of existence. It is not cloaked. Why? Because the impact and relation to our solar system would be too noticible. Cloaking is an optical illusion and would not suspend the physics constants in orbit in our solar system. In a different dimension, no impact on our solar system.

Second Answer has been answered for your. The Aliens have already made contact to us. They sought us out. Plus they already lived on Earth before, evolved util their testicles literally dropped off and want us biologically because their race is about to die out because they cannot procreate. They will possess our bodies by entering our minds through ultrasound and their biological forms will drop where they stand. You see aliens have learned how to do brain transplants (The only medical procedure that has never been sucessfully performed on Earth) Why? Because the Aliens have tried it and it does not work so they did the next best thing, Experiment!

Now ordinary citizens can purchase alien technology that will allow humans to communicate with Aliens. It is called the Flanagan Neurophone. It has an alien microprocessor chip that will stimulate a neuro pathway into the human mind which will allow the Aliens to take over human minds with ultrasound. No remember, humans have to be conditioned coupled with evolution, (major advancement in the size, speed and endurance of current sports humans, right?) coupled with a regimine of antioxidants and guess what the Alien is thinking. .. . Hey, I want that model of human when the time comes. Aliens are serving up man for consumption. See aliens are not going to make the mistake when it comes to procreation. That is why cloning is so important, no free will and really no mind. That is the real project that goes undiscussed.

The interdimensional travel is made possible by using the Phi mathmatical quotient in the stead of Pi in the equasion and you have inter DIMENSIONAL TRAVEL in relation to your first question. I hope this helps. Cordially, Ravenmock1

IMHO the best action would be a strict policy of non-interference with less advanced species. To never interfere with the development of lesser beings in the universe, but only to observe.

Contact would mess with the natural development on other races IMHO often in negative ways. Less advanced species can other nothing in terms of technology or knowledge to the more advanced species and could easily soon become technology leeches after open contact. Never adding anything of their own to overall knowledge in the universe. Likey they woud not be mature enough to handle technology far in advance of what they earned themselves.

Even well-intentioned actions by the more advanced race could have devastating effects. Think if some alien culture came to earth and gave us some knew energy source like antimatter. It wouldnt be hard for humans to turn that tech into bombs that would make nuclear weapons pale in comparison.

So I would only advise that we watch and study the species while well hidden and never interfere.

[edit on 29-1-2006 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Here's the next question I want you all to think long and hard about: How would you feel about being the first human to make contact with another race, who is very likely to kill you out of fear the second you show your face? How would you go about doing this in a smoothly controlled fashion? Would you try to keep your existence a secret?

Wouldn't it make sense to contact the "higher ups" of these beings, so as not to alarm the entire population?

Think about it for a second.

I bolded the part I am questioning. Why do you assume this civilization would be violent? Maybe their cloaking device would be assumed to indicate this. Also you are using the term "race" but I think you might mean "species". Is it a race of purple-colored humans?


[edit on 28-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

I think the author went a little too deep with the whole cloaking device... we can just stop hiding what we mean... and say the cloaked planet is referring to Earth... and we are referring to ourselves as the Aliens in this story. Now, maybe they would be assumed to be violent because they all are fighting each other... and have dropped atomic bombs on one another.
As for the whole race and species thing... If you think universally, all intelligent beings would be considered a race of beings... not a different species... because we all have one thing in common, our intelligence. Our intelligence allows for us to be racist against each other, no matter what planet we come from. In a universal neighborhood capable of interstellar travel, there are no different species of intelligent beings. We are intelligent enough to be racist against one another.. and understand what racism is. Anyway.. i forgot where i was going. I think I amde my point.

Peace and Love.

I say just send Bush as a councilor from Earth to learn them earthly knowledge and watch them destroy themselves in 10 years.

i really dont think technology is what should matter...think about how massive this place is...just say for a breif moment you were to make contact with a being..do you really think the first thing to take place would be you begging for their technology?!? just really sit there and imagine this happening..you would be asking things far more important then that...infact i dont think we could come up with the right things to say...we are so small in this amazing place...technology wouldnt matter to these people.....they have been there done that...i think their reasons arnt what we think....the world is a big place..they must be alone..and im sure they are as happy to see us as we should be them....we feel lost and alone here on earth not knowing whats out there...thats why we search to find..technology cant make up for this feeling...the only thing we could possibly have..would be eachother...why else would they make contact with us?...for fun and giggles? hell no and it sure wouldnt be our flintstone technology... sooooo wat DO you think is their point of view on this?