Satanic Child Abuse "assisted" by Victorian Government

I can't help but wonder why so many members of secret societies and occult groups 'care' so much to play down or debunk the fact of Organized, Protected Satanic Child Abuse Rings.

This is a conspiracy site yet conspiracies like this;
www.sos-family.org.au...
get little or no outcry, and those raising them are quickly called 'crazy' and worse by Masons, Occultists and others of their ilk, who demand more and more (impossible on the net) 'proof', and other tactics of confussion, rather than allow discussion on the topic to go unhighjacked.

As a Victorian, I can say as sick as this story is, it isn't the worse.
As a victim, who wants to stay alive, I can't post details 'acceptable' to those, victim attacking, Masons and Co.

Please read this whole link, burn it into your brain and remember it every time someone trys to tell you, "IF SRA happens, it's just the odd nut jobs". Give them the key details and if they still argue you can trust Governments to protect children...well I wouldn't ever be asking them to babysit.

While I hate Paedophiles they are everywhere. I am a Satanist, and paedophilia is NOT part of my religion. I am sick of these paedos draging my religion through the dirt, but then again the Catholic Church, and many other religions do have similar problems.

I think Name and shame them and stuff the cival libitarians if they say its unfair. Do the crime, do the time.

Just my 2 cents.

I know first hand of sacrifices at the hands of Satanists, but I would not say that all Satanists are a part of that.
On thesame token, to suggest that my Mason friends are child molestors would be outrageous, and while they would not even bother to defend themselves, they have friends like me who would get downright hog-nasty in their defense.

Lumping people can be dangerous, bigoted and erroneous. Be careful.

Originally posted by Saldorri
While I hate Paedophiles they are everywhere. I am a Satanist, and paedophilia is NOT part of my religion. I am sick of these paedos draging my religion through the dirt, but then again the Catholic Church, and many other religions do have similar problems.

I think Name and shame them and stuff the cival libitarians if they say its unfair. Do the crime, do the time.

Just my 2 cents.

Sadly and as a Christian this quote is what i believe to be true,and for your morals and honesty on this issue Saldorri,the differences and confusion i think about it is that no where in the Bible are we taught what these Preists from supposedly Christian Churchs have done,where there seems in Crowleys writtings about rituals that included child sacrifice correct me if i`m wrong.
Now if i`m confused on the issue surely there are satanists who are as well or take it literally?
So you would then have one belief that condones it and one that does`nt yet has people in it that go against what the Bible teachs.

Either way Saldorri God loves you to and only wants you to know this through his Son Christ,hey because your Lord`s sometimes on my heels bugging me to jump the fence.i only thought that fair.

[edit on 27-1-2006 by gps777]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
I can't help but wonder why so many members of secret societies and occult groups 'care' so much to play down or debunk the fact of Organized, Protected Satanic Child Abuse Rings.

Suzy,
I completly agree that organised sex rings exist in Victoria and that there are massive coverups.. but [in regards to religion] the evidence keeps pointing to it being strongly imbedded in christian religions and other organisations. I thnk that foster homes are sometimes used as kiddie brothels.. I've had a few friends grow up in them and they were preyed upon.. they were not part of any rituals though. Do you have any evidence rather than hearsay that it is specifically satanists involved rather than the church? I know you've been getting annoyed at people wanting 'proof' but in all honesty I don't think the motives of a pedophile would run any deeper than molesting a child. I think the reason they are in the church is because they were trying to 'repress' themselves or/and trying to get access to children.. same reason they might become boy scouts leaders, school teachers, foster parents etc. The difference between clergy pedos and non clergy pedos though is that the church is obliged to protect them and the law actually caters to this.. [not so much other religions] a tempting prospect for any criminal. Were those priests satanists too? The pope has also been involved in cover ups [thinking them up].. is he a satanist? Before we go any further, I think we need to clarify what your definition of a satanist is [active devil worshiper or someone who is evil] to clear up confusion.

Let us make one thing perfectly clear, the rings are not imbedded in Christian groups. Christ made it perfectly clear that you'd be better off with a millstone around your neck, headed for the bottom of the sea, than to cause harm to one of His children.

I could see groups of ne'er do wells hiding behind the cross to commit their filthy deeds, and I could see Satan guiding trhem that way, so as to mar the concept of Christianity.

Originally posted by gps777

Sadly and as a Christian this quote is what i believe to be true,and

for your morals and honesty on this issue Saldorri,the differences and confusion i think about it is that no where in the Bible are we taught what these Preists from supposedly Christian Churchs have done,where there seems in Crowleys writtings about rituals that included child sacrifice correct me if i`m wrong.

Just wondering.. is there anything I can say that would convince you that Crowley was not a Satanist? OK didn't think so.

Anyway there are zero rituals in Crowley's writings that have child sacrifice in them, zero. There is a part in chapter 12 of Magick and Theory and Practice that mentions child sacrifice. But this refers to to a sexual act that prevents the birth of a child (Masturbation). This is very similar to some Christian groups who are against birth control as it "kill" the potential child. If you take the time to read it you will see that Crowley ends this chapter with.

Magick and Theory and Practice. CP 12

"You are also likely to get into trouble over this chapter unless you truly comprehend its meaning".

Oh just for reference

2 Kings 6:29
So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

Ezekiel 4:10
And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

See what happens when you just take a few quotes from a book?

Originally posted by Cug

Just wondering.. is there anything I can say that would convince you that Crowley was not a Satanist? OK didn't think so.

ok i know what your saying here cug,though i dont think i need to explain to you either the definition of what a Satanist is from God`s point of view.
Which from yours and others prospective your correct and Crowelys and easy assumtion for others to make from a Christian perspective.

There is a part in chapter 12 of Magick and Theory and Practice that mentions child sacrifice. But this refers to to a sexual act that prevents the birth of a child (Masturbation). This is very similar to some Christian groups who are against birth control as it "kill" the potential child. If you take the time to read it you will see that Crowley ends this chapter with.

Magick and Theory and Practice. CP 12

"You are also likely to get into trouble over this chapter unless you truly comprehend its meaning".

Ok thanks,but can you post up the actual quotes like you did with the Bibles without breaking the censors,so we can read what it says?

See what happens when you just take a few quotes from a book?

For sure.

Edit i`m always messing up the quotes
and my "ok"that i wrote first turned into one of those wide mouthed googly eyed fella`s?,lol

[edit on 28-1-2006 by gps777]

Cug i`ll also like to extend my that i gave for Saldorri,on your stance and morals on the issue having read recently on another thread your detest of any abuse towards children,and that you were charged at one time being for protecting the local kids from a known abuser.

That to me i`ll take your word for honestly,and i feel safe in saying that i know that you and those you associate with do not do anything that abuses children.

Tho respectively my opinion is your beliefs are an abuse to God and anyone that is taught or encouraged to be involved in it which is a form of abuse.But not the kind on the said issue.

Well first up, I'll clarify that 'Satanic', when refering to these sorts of acts, doesn't mean those involved only ever lable themselves as such, but it doesn't make the acts less so. Likewise, there are those who do identify as Satanists who just aren't 'into it'.

I don't and haven't lumped all of any group together (infact I've more than once mentioned, I too know good masons) but what is really starting to annoy me is that there are those who have a knack of jumping into threads on this topic and turning them into a blanket defence of all their kind, and grilling those who support survivers as to their 'motives'.

When they aren't hijacking threads to demand their groups good name be protected, other personal gripes or dabating whether the problem really is so bad, they just stay clear of the topic.

Then you throw in those who are so keen not to 'judge' anyone or group, their attempt to be fair reads more like defence of all suspected and doubt of those who have suffered.

The result is, the only threads on this topic that don't have a short life and disappear, read like, "There are no survivers or victims of Organized Child Sex Rings and those who claim otherwise are just crazy" threads.

I posted this link because it addressed so many of the questions about why there is so little "proof" out there. It shows how hard it is to "prove" anything when every "proper channel" you go through to seek justice, either slams their door on you or turns you into a suspect or criminal.

So here I am again, begging for this topic to get a fraction of the attention it deserves, but still being sidetracked into 'defending' my motivation, while still, no one has addressed the many injustices to be found in the link.

Has anyone read it and formed an opinion or is sorting folk like me out and laying down narrow 'allowable' views and opinions, THE priority issue of this topic?

Riley, thanks for admitting you believe the depth of the problem. If only folk could do that little.....

So we have 2 people Suzy and Thomas that know from personal experience that those Satanists have sexually abused children and or sacrificed one or either children or adults.Who i believe their word.

Suzy i hav`nt read the link,you know i`ve read plenty of these type of links and believe this type of thing goes on maybe not to 100% of some claims but believe there are conspiracy`s to cover up real such cases,and i think it noble of you,though understand your preaching to the converted people that would be against these things 99.999recurring% of the time.

These Satanists were the card carrying dues payed up so to speak boney fidey Satanists,not some scum bag depraved low life that you witnessed, yes?

Also i agree with Thomas`s line of thinking when he responded to the ussual Preist comments that these priests are Satanists in the non Christian view,and or Satanists planted within a Church to discredit Christianity.

As Thomas pointed out how serious God points out the importance of children,which is not to harm them in any way and to suffer the little one and bring them to Him.Its fair to say its very clear that anyone especially those who are supposed to follow Christ that harm little ones in any shape or fashion(physically abused or mentally)or anyone else for that matter is in serious trouble.

This is`nt about Christians vs Satanists,its about Satanist who sexually ritually abuse children So can we put that to bed.Unless someone can provide proof that these Priests sexually abused children at Church during a Catholic mass or something in front of the congregation that non Christian,Athiests Satanist like to use when ever these things are mentioned.




[edit on 28-1-2006 by gps777]

TC

Lumping people can be dangerous, bigoted and erroneous. Be careful.

You are so right, with just a hint of irony.

suzy ryan

Please read this whole link, burn it into your brain and remember it every time someone trys to tell you, "IF SRA happens, it's just the odd nut jobs". Give them the key details and if they still argue you can trust Governments to protect children...well I wouldn't ever be asking them to babysit.

Okay, I read the link. The key details are unsubstantiated, and the whole 'conspiracy' seems to resolve around one distraught father. Is it possible that a gigantic Satanic conspiracy exists? Sure, anything's possible. It's also possible daddy's off his nut.

BTW, my mom is employed by that bastion of perverse sodomorrific sin, the Steiner school. I've seen their operations, and they beat the Hell out of the public schools. I've never seen anything satanic about their curriculum or their results, so, whatever - the guy writing the article seems to think enrolling your child in Steiner school = evidence of ritualized sexual abuse, and that's a bunch of crap.

[edit on 28-1-2006 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by gps777
Which from yours and others prospective your correct and Crowelys and easy assumtion for others to make from a Christian perspective.

Yea I know it might be hard to differentiate between the two, but I really think you should make the effort. I'm sure you can come up with something that won't conflict with your religious views. You can look to the many branches of Christianity and see how even with the same basic beliefs (Jesus died for your sins) you cant assume that one acts like the other, or even believes the same thing. How would you feel if I took the beliefs of a Christian group like the Moonies or the Rastafarians and said that is what you believe?

Ok thanks,but can you post up the actual quotes like you did with the Bibles without breaking the censors,so we can read what it says?

It's not obscene. That's why Crowley hid the sexual stuff

Here is the major quote in question from chap 12

For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence

Sounds downright ghastly doesn't it? Well keep reading. here is Crowley's footnote on the above quote.

It appears from the Magical Records of Frater Perdurabo that He made this particular sacrifice on an average about 150 times every year between 1912 e.v. and 1928 e.v. Contrast J.K.Huyman's "La-Bas", where a perverted form of Magic of an analogous order is described.

Egads that's 2,400 sacrifices in 16 years, and if you assume he continued doing this for the rest of his life you have to add another 2,850 to the total. Now lets think about it. do you really think anyone could kill 5,250 people over 34 years and get away with it?

Next thing of note is the date he claims to started doing it 1912. 1912 is the year he found about the O.T.O. sex magick stuff.

Now lets look at the second part about J.K.Huymans's book "La-Bas", La-Bas was a horror novel biased on Satan worship, the Black Mass (The "traditional" french version) and in it there is child sacrifice preformed (Remember this is a novel). This sacrifice is what Crowley basically calls a perverted form of the sacrifice he described. So in a nut shell what Crowley is saying is "real" child sacrifice is not what I'm talking about.

The footnote continues

"It is the sacrifice of oneself spiritually. And the intelligence and innocence of that male child are the perfect understanding of the Magician, his one aim, without lust of result. And male he must be, because what he sacrifices is not the material blood, but his creative power." This initiated interpretation of the texts was sent spontaneously by Soror I.W.E., for the sake of the younger Brethren.

Here you go it's "the sacrifice of oneself", "male child are(is) the perfect understanding of the magician", "not the material blood"

To understand the Soror I.W.E. part (Soror is Latin for Sister) you have to read Crowley's autobiography. Soror I.W.E. was the person the Crowley was dictating this chapter to. and when he got to the male child part she basically stopped him and told him the that's going to cause a ton of missunderstandings, you better rewrite it. Crowley thought it was perfectly clear but relented and added the footnote and the last line of the chapter to appease here. I'll try and find where in his autobio this is but the book is 3 inches thick... it may take some time. ;-)

All the above quotes can be found here www.hermetic.com... If you read it try reading it like a naughty hormone surging schoolboy.

Serpent nudge nudge wink wink
vessel nudge nudge wink wink

Tho respectively my opinion is your beliefs are an abuse to God and anyone that is taught or encouraged to be involved in it which is a form of abuse.But not the kind on the said issue.

Not a thing wrong with that. There is plenty in Thelema that your not going to like.

[edit on 1/28/2006 by Cug]

G'day all,
This topic really get's me going! I don't care where you from, what you do, what really you practise or preach, what title you hold be it a police officer, judge, general, MP, doctor or bishop, if you mess with little kiddies, first of all, you should be publicly outed - on every media paper, radio, tv, internet etc. Public shamed. You should be medically sterilised, to avoid unwanted pregnancies. You should be put in a room with the family of those that you mistreated to have they're way with you, and then you should be placed in a Maximum security prison with hardened criminals, handcuffed to your ankles over a bench and lubed up for the prison population to sacrifice your rectum as punishment for your sins.

That's just me being politically correct and going easy on ya, because god help you or whoever it is that you beleive in, because you'll be praying to them for help if I ever get me hands on any one of you kiddy abusing freaks!!!!!!!!

KOZAK - LIVE FREE OR DIE FIGHTING FOR IT (AND THAT INCLUDES LOOKING AFTER KIDDIES)

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

BTW, my mom is employed by that bastion of perverse sodomorrific sin, the Steiner school. I've seen their operations, and they beat the Hell out of the public schools. I've never seen anything satanic about their curriculum or their results, so, whatever - the guy writing the article seems to think enrolling your child in Steiner school = evidence of ritualized sexual abuse, and that's a bunch of crap.

FYI Here is how they probably connect a Steiner school with Satanists. Steiner school = Rudolf Steiner, who was a member of the Theosophical Society, and later helped form the group that became the O.T.O. Aleister Crowley later became the head of the O.T.O. So Steiner was a Satanist because of his connections to both Crowley and the Theosophical Society.

Here's the problem.

We all want justice, sometimes a little too much...

www.wtsp.com...

The above link is to a story about a guy who punched out a teacher's assistant because of a molestation allegation. Turns out the allegation was false, and the girl was simply mad because she got a detention for acting like a twit.

These allegations are very common. Most times they turn out to be nothing but frustration, and imagination. The legal system needs to find and preserve ways to keep a cool head to avoid this sort of mistake.

In the old days in America, rape and child abuse were punished by death. A lot of innocent people died in the absence of a competent justice system. That's something we simply can't condone.

If this angry dad had shot the TA instead of just donkey-punching him, it would have destroyed TWO lives for nothing. That wouldn't be justice.

"Father of the Year" for punching an innocent man in the face...

Originally posted by Cug
Yea I know it might be hard to differentiate between the two, but I really think you should make the effort. I'm sure you can come up with something that won't conflict with your religious views.

Thanks for your efforts and time Cug,"Do as tho wilt"is in essence exactly opossite to "God`s will be done".Which is pretty cut and dry,not that i`m cutting you off as a Satanist worshiper in the card carrying type way because i believe you when you say you are`nt.

To me "Do as tho wilt"is`nt any different than quite possibly the majority of people imo,and i dont concider the majority of people evil devil worshipers in the same literal sense as i described,though most people that i know that dont believe in God would`nt get up to the things you`ve described go on,and do.

To you there is no sin,and you live by your Law?.Which does come with guide lines and not as simple as "Do as tho wilt"

You have more faith in me than i think i do reguarding i can come up with something that doesnt conflict with my view sorry pal (i mean that with all sinserity)

But i do get you when you correct me on that you are`nt Satanist`s.

You can look to the many branches of Christianity and see how even with the same basic beliefs (Jesus died for your sins) you cant assume that one acts like the other, or even believes the same thing.

I know its a mess and an embarassment .though a rule of thumb John 3:16 is as much as i want to judge whether or not some people are Christian or not.

How would you feel if I took the beliefs of a Christian group like the Moonies or the Rastafarians and said that is what you believe?

Understood, the difference is that God wants you to be Christian i`m just letting you know,Crowley and the Law could give two hoots whether your with them or not.

It's not obscene. That's why Crowley hid the sexual stuff

Here is the major quote in question from chap 12

For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence

followed by the next best thing down the line to animals.

It appears from the Magical Records of Frater Perdurabo that He made this particular sacrifice on an average about 150 times every year between 1912 e.v. and 1928 e.v. Contrast J.K.Huyman's "La-Bas", where a perverted form of Magic of an analogous order is described.

Egads that's 2,400 sacrifices in 16 years, and if you assume he continued doing this for the rest of his life you have to add another 2,850 to the total. Now lets think about it. do you really think anyone could kill 5,250 people over 34 years and get away with it?

It does sound highly unlikely,but i have no idea,honestly of what happened back then.
I`m not pointing this at you Cug but there are tens of thousands of children that go missing in the US each year nowadays.I have read this about a year ago.

Next thing of note is the date he claims to started doing it 1912. 1912 is the year he found about the O.T.O. sex magick stuff.

Now lets look at the second part about J.K.Huymans's book "La-Bas", La-Bas was a horror novel biased on Satan worship, the Black Mass (The "traditional" french version) and in it there is child sacrifice preformed (Remember this is a novel). This sacrifice is what Crowley basically calls a perverted form of the sacrifice he described. So in a nut shell what Crowley is saying is "real" child sacrifice is not what I'm talking about.

I see it as perverted as well,but i understand your saying Crowley was`nt into child sacrifice.How many other groups might misinterpret this and take it literal Cug?

I'll try and find where in his autobio this is but the book is 3 inches thick... it may take some time. ;-)

If you think its worth it not just for my sake,I have been to the OTO site and have saved it for further reading,but when i`ve gone there i seem to be able to only stomach a little.I have read on there Crowleys poem about him and his g/friend and by just that one thing think he`s a sicko even if he was a good writter or what ever you and ML say about him.
If he wrote the law of Thelma i have deep concerns for anyone involved.
I dont care how funny or gifted in certain area`s he may have been.

www.hermetic.com... If you read it try reading it like a naughty hormone surging schoolboy.

Serpent nudge nudge wink wink
vessel nudge nudge wink wink

monty python,now thats funny.

Eating exciment,and people taking his (Crowley`s)antics as funny is disturbing,Mocking Christ and hating him for who he was and what he did is something i will never never understand,God willing.
I will check out the link,and if i have anything i need to add i`ll send you a u2u

Originally posted by gps777

Thanks for your efforts and time Cug,"Do as tho wilt"is in essence exactly opossite to "God`s will be done".Which is pretty cut and dry,

You are 100% correct sir.

To you there is no sin,and you live by your Law?.Which does come with guide lines and not as simple as "Do as tho wilt"

100% incorrect sir. "The word of Sin is Restriction" At first look it seems like it's saying no one can stop me from doing whatever I want. and that is basically true.. but that also applies to every other man woman and child. For example killing someone is a sin, why? because it restricts their right to live. Sleeping with someones wife is a sin (Without permission of both sides) because it restricts the man's right of marrage. Sex with children restricts the child's right of a normal childhood. robbing a store restricts the owner of the right to make money. If I were to actively try to convert you to Thelema I'd be restricting your right to live with your religion without interference. and on and on.

::edit::
After rereading this the part that goes "restricts the man's right of marrage" it doesn't sound as I intended. It restricts his faith in his marrage vows and vise versa if the married man is the one being messed with.
::end edit::

Understood, the difference is that God wants you to be Christian i`m just letting you know,Crowley and the Law could give two hoots whether your with them or not.

Your 100% correct again. And that's the way I like it. I'm a Thelemite because "I" chose it, not because it chose me.

It does sound highly unlikely,but i have no idea,honestly of what happened back then.
I`m not pointing this at you Cug but there are tens of thousands of children that go missing in the US each year nowadays.I have read this about a year ago.

Yep, but Crowleys movements during his lifetime are quite well known and there has never been a rash of missing children following his path. in many cases Crowley was in some pretty remote places and even a small handfull of missing children would of drawn at least some suspicion on the "evil black magician".

I see it as perverted as well,but i understand your saying Crowley was`nt into child sacrifice.How many other groups might misinterpret this and take it literal Cug?

Quite a few Christian groups do. ;-) But nobody in occult circles take it literally, even the ones who hate Crowley. (And FYI I'll bet that almost the majority of occultist do hate or at least actively dislike Crowley)

If you think its worth it not just for my sake,I have been to the OTO site and have saved it for further reading,but when i`ve gone there i seem to be able to only stomach a little.I have read on there Crowleys poem about him and his g/friend and by just that one thing think he`s a sicko even

I have no problems with you thinking he was sick. But for the record Crowley is not our Messiah and we don't treat him that way. We don't try to emulate everything he did. I could spend all day picking out Crowley's faults one by one myself. Crowley can almost be called inconsequential when you compare him to everything that is Thelema IMHO.

Eating exciment,and people taking his (Crowley`s)antics as funny is disturbing,Mocking Christ and hating him for who he was and what he did is something i will never never understand,God willing.

Crowley never hated Christ (as a prophet).. he did hate many Christians, and many Christian "churches", but that is not the same as hating Christ.

[edit on 1/28/2006 by Cug]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Let us make one thing perfectly clear, the rings are not imbedded in Christian groups.

How do you account for all the 'incidences' in the Catholic church if it's not imbedded? I am not implying that it is part of the christian concept.. but rather a sub organisation that has infiltrated every organisation [religious or not].. I'm sure pedos don't mind the fact that if they tell a fellow priests their crimes.. they are obliged to keep their mouths shut and protect them.. or/and tranfer them. This escape clause will keep being abused while it remains legal.

Christ made it perfectly clear that you'd be better off with a millstone around your neck, headed for the bottom of the sea, than to cause harm to one of His children.

Unfortuantly they often justify their behaviour by convincing themselves they are 'in love' with their victim and therefore not harming.. this leaves the bible open to be re-interprited to suit.

Oops changed my mind i think this is worth sharing?
From your link Cug

Such details, however, may safely be left to the good sense of the Student. Experience here as elsewhere is the best teacher. In the Sacrifice during Invocation, however, it may be said without fear of contradiction that the death of the victim should coincide with the supreme invocation.
WEH addenda: A sworn testimony by Crowley declares that he held actual human sacrifice to physical death to be the most efficacious, but that he never did such a thing. On the matter concerning death of the victim in invocation, Crowley elsewhere enlarges that this is the ephemeral death of the Ego.

Now i`m the first to admit i`m not into magic magik what ever,but how on earth would he know this to be the case?,and for what purpose if he knew this to be true,swear by it?
If it was because he was told by some mythical God or what not or where ever he got this information from other than actually doing it and finding out first hand,dont you think then its quite likely people (Satanists)actually do this?.

Actual ceremonial details likewise may be left to experiment. The method of killing is practically uniform. The animal should be stabbed to the heart, or its throat severed, in either case by the knife. All other methods of killing are less efficacious; even in the case of Crucifixion death is given by stabbing.

Whats this?you sometimes crucify an animal and stab it to death?
I tried reading it Cug and nearly every few words there were alarm bells going off at me about it,as per usual about the OTO.