Tension over Hamas Rising

It appears that the recent victory for the hamas with the palestien people has risen great concern especially amoung the US and Israel. What is most interesting about this article though is the fact they are still being reconized as a terrorist organization. after what this group has done, its no surprise that they were elected. they have high hopes for democracy and the hamas have proven themselves to help the community. on the other hand they are believed to be terrorist, since they refuse to reconize israel. Benjamin Netanyahu, running for prime minister also shared his concerns.

www.cnn.com...

Numerous world leaders, while acknowledging the Hamas victory as the voice of the Palestinian people, nevertheless called on the militant Islamic group to disarm.

Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States


Hamas, however, has operated a network of successful social and charitable organizations for Palestinians, and Abbas did not appear to abandon hope that the peace process could move forward as long as the fundamentalist Islamic group can earn "the respect and confidence of the international community."

"Together, we will work to achieve the dream for which our martyrs have fallen," he said. "It is a dream of setting up a democratic state based on our national unity, based on democracy, based on political pluralism and based on maintaining equality among the people, equality between men and women, according to our declaration of independence."


Netanyahu said the Hamas victory is "bad news no matter how they dress it up" and likened the militant group to Iran, whose president has also called for the destruction of Israel.

"I think what is required is a revolution," Netanyahu said, adding that among other good-faith efforts, "they'd have to jail the terrorists, including some of their own people."

id first off like to say im split about the hamas. though they hate israel they do believe in holding the peace, democracy, and equality. even when not in power they have helped their people when their government wouldnt. the israel topic is the main issue though. they refuse to reconize israel and hate them, this is causing much controversy.

what i dislike is Netanyahus remarks. to me he will only cause more problems. hes calling for a revolution in a country that just had a majority vote for the hamas. telling them they should jail these people (in an indirect fashion) i feel this is only creating further tension amoung the people in the mideast. what i dislike the most is saying they are connected to iran simply because they both dislike israel. i guess everyone that dislikes israel is some how connected in a master plot? maybe they just dont like them and arent connected. time will tell what happens here.

Oh but why be worried. Now that the terrorist are in charge they will become more "moderate" per the idiot news media.

Hamas-istain.....is Iran west. Fully funded and under control. Expect ships to be stopped by the Israeli navy from Iran or N Korea that have fresh arms on them.

right on therm!

I was watching CNN this morning and the douchebag reporting says "Hammas has encourached suicide bombings". No idiot, they have CARRIED OUT suicide bombings.

There seems to be an ongoing media campaign to downplay hammas's link to terrorist attacks.

Rantissi truely believes he isnt spreading terrorism and that hes retaliating for for israel has done, taking the land they believe they have just as much right to. it comes right down to religion in the end, like usual.

Meanwhile israel believes they have full right to the land because of their religious beliefs and that the palestine and their people are the terrorist. if both believe the other side is the start of the conflict, whos right?

israel believe it was there land to have, and palestine believes their land has been taken from them. so how do you say one is right or wrong? they both say the other side started the conflicts, so whos to blame? you could say palestine but then theyd say they are retaliating, you could say israel but they would say they are retaliating. where is the begining? is there really anyone to blame other then the nations that gave the palestinians land away.

Seriously, does this need to be qestioned ??
The HAMAS which is little more than a group of suicidal fanatics that hope to prove something to Israel by act of depravity and desperation. THAT is " elected" to run Palestine ?? Isnt this just something the Palestinans have done to enrage th Israelis ?
The Israelis have every right to be pissed off at HAMAS and the palestinians, the people who killed their mothers, kids, wifes etc are now a legal authority that in Palestine and Isreal is forced to recognise these people as a representation of the palestinians ?? Isnt that just like Osama Bin laden getting elected in Iran and the US forced to accept him as the Iranian leader ? IT is outrageous to say the least. Even with the concessions shown by the ISraelis towards the palestinians they have disregarded these gestures and empowered a " terrorist" organisation legaly to rule them, will it be seen with effront in Israel ?
You bet it will .
It was barely tolerable with Arafat around now with HAMAS in power the whole area will go light up if HAMAS or any other group tries anything. I already saw CNN quoting the Sharon's Advisers as saying that they will watch and see the situation in Palestine and if HAMAS isnt conucive to peace they will take "unilateral" actions that will inconvenience the Palestinians.

A lot of people will be worried about the HAMAS and by electing the HAMAS the palestinians have destroied their cause for freedom and democracy to a considerable extent.

This was Hamas' worst nightmare. They were expecting a strong showing, but now....Now they are screwed. If any attacks happen out side of PA areas, then it will be Hamas fault. Before they could hide behind Fatah's and the PA coat tails. Now the bulls eye is planted squarely on their foreheads. Hamas is not stupid, batpoo crazy but not stupid.

I would expects some parliamentary maneuvering, by Hamas, if Israel takes a hard-line stance. This is a long-shot, but some thing will happen that will negate, or at least downplay Hamas role in the new Government. Israel will not fall for it, but most of the world's anti-Israel left will trumpet what ever Hamas says.

If there is no surprise political maneuvering by Hamas, then I expect 'ole Benji to do well in the upcoming Israeli elections. Good Luck Hamas....you are going to need it! LOL


Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 27/1/2006 by Mirthful Me]

close minded statement to say they thrown away freedom an democracy. maybe they have thrown away proUS/israel stance but not democracy. they voted them in, legally, and i dont see why they arent free now.

please explain how they have lost freedoms or democracy hasnt prevailed, (even if it isnt in your favor).

Originally posted by grimreaper797
close minded statement to say they thrown away freedom an democracy. maybe they have thrown away proUS/israel stance but not democracy. they voted them in, legally, and i dont see why they arent free now.

please explain how they have lost freedoms or democracy hasnt prevailed, (even if it isnt in your favor).

No, the Palestinians fully took advantage of their freedom and turned their fate over to a known terrorist group. They can no longer claim the role of the innocent, bullied victim. They have made a statement and it isn't one for peace! This comes at a time when Israel is about to elect a new government and a new PM. Sharon, whether you liked him or hated him, was making an attempt at peace. Abbas and the Fatah were the voice of reason among the Palestinians. Now you have a known terrorist organization(Hamas) going up against a new Israeli hard line government.
Doesn't take a recent Madras grad to figure this one out!

Wouln'nt be great if the factions went at each others throats?

I would Love to see them gunning each other down in the middle of their filthy streets.....I have a feeling they won't dissapoint me.


Maximu§

LA_M,


I understand completely where you are coming from especially after seeing these same people dancing and chanting in the streets after 9/11. But even if bloody civil strife breaks out among the factions in Palestine, then I am sure that most Americans everywhere will do nothing more than shake their heads in disbelief and go about their daily lives in a dignified manner.


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[edit on 28-1-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

first off i doubt you even know what freedom is then. just because you label them terrorists doesnt mean that suddenly they are oppressing their own people. they were helping their people, they hate israel. they are terrorists for israel, not their home state.

grim, freedom to kill more jews is all they gained.

they chose, now they need to accept the result of their choice.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
first off i doubt you even know what freedom is then. just because you label them terrorists doesnt mean that suddenly they are oppressing their own people. they were helping their people, they hate israel. they are terrorists for israel, not their home state.

Apparently you do not understand the term "terrorist". Just because one group is under the delusion that they are "helping" their people is no justification what so ever to label them as 'saviours'.
HAMAS is little more than a barbaric conglomeration of religious fanatics who are under the vain hope of attaining a 'pass to paridise' let alone an independent Palestinian state.

From WordNet
Terrorist : A radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

Freedom is not achieved through terrorism -EVER !! Any modicum of peace achieved through this means is short lived and restive at best. THAT is what the so-called 'freedom fighters' need to understand. Which they haven’t, thus they have never achieved what they have wanted.

In dealing with the Israelis the Palestinians are lucky that their 'oppressor' is bound morally by compassion and the rule of law. For had it been an autocratic regime (Saddam) their constant belligerence against authority would have necessitated a genocide. But now instead of voicing dissent in a dignified and respectable manner that would have hastened the creation of a Palestinian state, they have succumbed to their primal instincts of revenge and violence and misguided superstitions of salvation through terrorism by electing a group that epitomizes these principles.

I happened to read about the way the Palestinians lied and deceived opinon polls (some with samples of 10,000 ! ) to show a Fatah majority when infact there is was a sweep for the HAMAS. Can we say that maybe the opinion polls were biased to areas with greater Fatah majority or taken by Israelis. Neither is the case, samples were taken by Palestinians and that too with massive sample sizes of 7000-10000 people. So the most logical conclusion would be to say that they lied, they lied to deceive the world and the Israelis. But now the main question is why would they do something like that ?
Would it be safe to assume that are after all exactly as the Israelis claim they to be and the world has been hoodwinked by Arafat and the PLA into accepting a human face to the demons that are the Palestinian people ??


[edit on 28-1-2006 by IAF101]

HAMAS is little more than a barbaric conglomeration of religious fanatics who are under the vain hope of attaining a 'pass to paridise' let alone an independent Palestinian state.

From WordNet
Terrorist : A radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

Freedom is not achieved through terrorism -EVER !! Any modicum of peace achieved through this means is short lived and restive at best. THAT is what the so-called 'freedom fighters' need to understand. Which they haven’t, thus they have never achieved what they have wanted.

I'm also split on Hamas. The West can't rant on about 'democracy' to Arabs, and then bitch about it when they don't like the results. The people in Gaza live in crowded squalor and there has been absolutely no sign of any improvement (or hope of improvement) in their lives under a massively corrupt Fatah. They were offered 'clean hands' (well, blood-stained, but at least not soiled by bribes and kickbacks) by Hamas, and took it.

Are they terrorists who have murdered innocent people? Yes. Did they win an election fairly? Yes. They call themselves 'resistors of occupation' - certainly if *I* had been removed from my home and put in a squalid refugee camp so that another people could return to their 'promised land', I'd be a little irritated, to say the least. And I'm approaching this as someone who believed Israel has a right to exist.

What would *you* do if your family had been kicked out of your land by a superior force and put on reservation? Not justifying suicide bombings or anything, but how would you resist? When would you know you were beaten, and just accept your new existence?

I'd take issue with the 'Freedom is Not Acheived Through Terrorism' line. Sinn Fein/IRA didn't 'win', but they certainly took the British Government to the negotiating table. The Stern Gang bombed the British out of Palestine/Israel.

en.wikipedia.org...

In dealing with the Israelis the Palestinians are lucky that their 'oppressor' is bound morally by compassion and the rule of law. For had it been an autocratic regime (Saddam) their constant belligerence against authority would have necessitated a genocide. But now instead of voicing dissent in a dignified and respectable manner that would have hastened the creation of a Palestinian state, they have succumbed to their primal instincts of revenge and violence and misguided superstitions of salvation through terrorism by electing a group that epitomizes these principles.

From their point of view, their country was stolen from them in the 1940's and their people displaced into 'refugee camps', where they have been living ever since, mainly because the Europeans felt bad about murdering millions of Jews in the 1930s'/40's. So bad in fact, that they gave away someone else's country as a way of saying 'sorry'! Therefore, the Palestinians are hardly going to regard the Israelis as 'moral or compassionate' - even if, by and large, they do conduct themselves in a civilized manner in this conflict.

Whatever 'state' the Palestinians get, it's going to be a 'Bantustan' - a wee pretendy country. They're not even going to get East Jerusalem as a fig-leaf for the fact that they've lost 80% of their land to Israel. No right of return for refugees. Why *would* the Palestinian electorate vote for a 'compromise' that legitamizes their plight?

It all comes down to blood, land and knowing when to give up against a militarily superior force. And we need to understand (if not agree) with the forces that have propelled Hamas to a majority in parliament. Two people, one land? Can't ever see there being a solution. Ain't Human Nature a wonderful thing?

Would it be safe to assume that are after all exactly as the Israelis claim they to be and the world has been hoodwinked by Arafat and the PLA into accepting a human face to the demons that are the Palestinian people ??

Whoah! Substitute 'Jew' for 'Palestinian' and you'd sound like a German in the 1930's!
Walk a mile in their shoes before you make statements like that - maybe you *would* be singing 'Give Peace a Chance' as occupiers bulldozed your family home and threw you off your land. Or maybe you'd fight - and encourage your children to do the same. So the whole cycle of violence, oppression and bloodshed can play down the generations.

It's amazing that a country which is sacred to three related and major world religions has inspired so much evil and inhumanity over the past 1,000 years. It's enough to turn anyone into an atheist!

TD


[edit on 28-1-2006 by IAF101]

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Wouln'nt be great if the factions went at each others throats?

I would Love to see them gunning each other down in the middle of their filthy streets.....I have a feeling they won't dissapoint me.

But even if bloody civil strife breaks out among the factions in Palestine, then I am sure that most Americans everywhere will do nothing more than shake their heads in disbelief and go about their daily lives in a dignified manner.

I'm from the West. I was brought up in a tradition of democracy and respect for human rights. I believe in the right of Israel to exist. I think that the biggest argument against Arab Nationalism is the tendency of their countries to 'rule by strongmen'. I thought that military action against Iraq was justified - WoMD or not.

And I am really pretty *shocked* at the borderline racism I am reading in this thread.

WHOFLUNGGUM - 'Dignity' is a product of wealth and freedom. I would be interested to see how 'dignified' the average American would be if the Native Americans decided to reclaim their 'promised land' and confine most of the settler population to Long Island. Here are some statistics on how good the Palestinians have it:

www.cia.gov...

There are reasons terrorists kill innocent people, and there are reasons terrorists get elected to office. The reasons may not be good or pretty, but they are reasons, nevertheless. Unless there is some attempt to understand the reasons behind these results we may as well all cut straight to the chase and have the big 'War of Civilisations' that the lunatics on both sides have been looking forward to for years.

TD

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[edit on 28-1-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

hamas may be terrorists to foriegn countries, but at home i dont think so. at home they are trying to free their people. you call them terrorists because you are the enemy for them. of course your not going to call them freedom fighters, they arent fighting for your freedom, they are fighting for theirs, against you.

untill you can prove hamas threatened their own people to get the majority of the vote, democracy has prevailed and thats how it is. the people voiced what they wanted, it wasnt created by terror. and as i said, though they might be terrorists to the israelis, they arent to their home people. but then again im sure they see us as terrorists in iraq, but we dont see our people as terrorists. we cause terror over there for the people who get killed by stray bullets in iraq and such...all the bombings, yet our voice goes over theres and they are the terrorists while we are the freedom fighters. because we deem ourselves so.

Right on grim....

Hamas is undoubtebly doing humanitarian aid for its people. The people responded by voting them into power. I think democracy is working there.....

They may have been behind some attacks, and I condemn them for that. But, If you do your research, most attacks commited by Hamas are actually retaliations against Israel for a previous attack on Palestinians.....Israel is constantly sending missle strikes against the Palestinian people.




[edit on 28-1-2006 by LetKnowledgeDrop]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
hamas may be terrorists to foriegn countries, but at home i dont think so. at home they are trying to free their people. you call them terrorists because you are the enemy for them. of course your not going to call them freedom fighters, they arent fighting for your freedom, they are fighting for theirs, against you.

untill you can prove hamas threatened their own people to get the majority of the vote, democracy has prevailed and thats how it is. the people voiced what they wanted, it wasnt created by terror. and as i said, though they might be terrorists to the israelis, they arent to their home people. but then again im sure they see us as terrorists in iraq, but we dont see our people as terrorists. we cause terror over there for the people who get killed by stray bullets in iraq and such...all the bombings, yet our voice goes over theres and they are the terrorists while we are the freedom fighters. because we deem ourselves so.

It will be interesting to see the 'New Democrats' in the Middle East stay democratic. Does anyone know what the term of the Palestinian Parliament is?

The only even vaguely similar example I can think of it Sinn Fein/IRA in Northern Ireland. They pursued an 'Armalite and Ballot Box' approach for about 20+years - it turned my stomach, and they *generally* played fair when it came to terrorist atrocities (with a lot of notable exceptions). They were completely committed to the overthrow of the British presence in Ulster - 2006 and they have been in government, have said 'The War is Over' and have worked with Unionist politicians. Imperfect process with lots of bumps and moral dilemmas on the road, but better than war without end? Maybe.

Point is, I never thought I would live to see Irish 'Terrorists' working with British 'Occupiers'. But they did - mainly because people on both sides took risks and looked for an alternative.

Can Hamas be engaged politically? Dunno. They have a mandate, even if we don't like it, so someone needs to at least sound them out in private before deciding that they are completely beyond the pale.

TD

PS 'Beyond the Pale'

en.wikipedia.org...

Isn't it interesting how even our language is shaped by occupation and conflict?

Originally posted by grimreaper797
first off i doubt you even know what freedom is then. just because you label them terrorists doesnt mean that suddenly they are oppressing their own people. they were helping their people, they hate israel. they are terrorists for israel, not their home state.

Really? They are terrorists for Syria? That is the "Palestinian"'s home state, going by the words of their own people, the Arabs.
Just what is freedom? Being held hostage by your own people so that you might be used as a political burr under your self-created enemy's saddle? I say self-created because Israel doesn't have to be an enemy of theArabs, they merely chose to make them such.
These two sides don't mean harm to each other, either, I assume, as they shoot it out in the streets. I supppose when a stray bullet center-punches an innocent Arabic child, it will be the fault of the evil Zionists, right?

Hrmm, I see tons of time and words spent on hugging those who destroy innocent life, but no time at all looking at those (Syria, Jordan) who should be easing the suffering of these people. The Israelis do a LOT more to ease their suffering while their "brothers ease their suffering by offering them explosive belts in order to kill innocent Jews in cafes and pizzarias.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This way I don't have to rewrite a lot of stuff.

Really? They are terrorists for Syria? That is the "Palestinian"'s home state, going by the words of their own people, the Arabs.

I think we should sometimes use the word 'Arab' like we use the word 'European', or 'Anglo-Saxon'. Cultural ties, but looser than being a political entity. The number of 'Palestinians' who have been born in places like the UAE and denied citizenship is shocking - Arab brotherhood doesn't exist, or at least only in the Cain and Abel sense of the word.

A big sticking point in any peace process is 'right of return' of Palestinian refugees to 'Palestine' - not going to happen because they would swamp the Israelis demographically. But that's the crux of the issue: Palestinians lived in Palestine/Israel before Israel was created, they were displaced in the creation of Israel and they (or they descendants) want to return home. And it's not going to happen. So people are living in 'refugee camps' for 50+ years, with crappy government and terrible economics and no prospect of any relief in sight. They're going vote for people who say they can do something about it. It's human nature.

Just what is freedom? Being held hostage by your own people so that you might be used as a political burr under your self-created enemy's saddle? I say self-created because Israel doesn't have to be an enemy of theArabs, they merely chose to make them such.

Do Arab leaders use Israel as a distraction for their poor economic leadership and corruption? Yes.

Do Palestinians displaced in the creation of Israel have a right to be somewhat furious? Yes.
You can't say that the anger of people living in squalor in Gaza is completely manipulated.

These two sides don't mean harm to each other, either, I assume, as they shoot it out in the streets. I supppose when a stray bullet center-punches an innocent Arabic child, it will be the fault of the evil Zionists, right?

No. But this maybe was (although I wouldn't use the word evil or Zionist, any more than I would call the Palestinian people 'demons'):

www.guardian.co.uk...

Occupying forces and hostile populations don't mix - my country did the same in Ulster (Bloody Sunday). So you get the classic cycle of bloody retaliation.

Hrmm, I see tons of time and words spent on hugging those who destroy innocent life, but no time at all looking at those (Syria, Jordan) who should be easing the suffering of these people. The Israelis do a LOT more to ease their suffering while their "brothers ease their suffering by offering them explosive belts in order to kill innocent Jews in cafes and pizzarias.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This way I don't have to rewrite a lot of stuff.

Arabs aren't particularly nice to other arabs? Go on. Israelis do charitable acts for Palestinians - certainly. Does anyone remember the Scottish Jewish kid who was killed in a suicide bombing, and whose ?kidney? was donated to a Palestinian?

No-one seems to be addressing the fundamental point that people had their land 'stolen' from them in the creation of Israel and they (and their descendents)are living in squalor today. Dreadful conditions beget extremism. Extremism begets terrorism, however morally repugnant we may find this.

There is no excuse for terrorism, but there are reasons. There is absolutely no excuse for affluent Westerners not attempting to put themselves in the position of an impoverished Palestinian teenager in Gaza before condemning the electoral success of Hamas.

TD



[edit on 28-1-2006 by TaupeDragon]