OIMD v Stumpy : Extra-Terrestrial have visited Earth.

One of 4 great 1st round matches.
OIMD former Champion (see Roll of Honour topic) versus Stumpy who reached the Challenger playoff last time around and was only narrowly beaten by our present Champion Ktprktpr.

Each debator will have one opening statement each.This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each.There will be one closing statement each and no rebutal.
No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words.In the event of a debator posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom.Credits or references at the bottom count as part of the post.

Editing is Strictly forbidden.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only 1 image or link may be included in any post.Opening and Closing statement must not carry either images or links.

The Debate topic is:That Extra-Terrestial beings have visited Earth and still do.

OIMD will argue for this proposition and he will open the Debate.
Stumpy will respond and argue against this proposition.

As a guide responses should be made within 18 hours.However if the debate is moving forward then I have a relaxed attitude to this.

Defaulters will not be excepted in the next Tournament.The winner will receive 3000 ATS points the loser(on condition of completion)will receive 1500 ATS points.This on top of generous points allocation for Debate forum posts.

This Topic will be opened on Sunday Evening GMT and the debate may start.

I wish you both goodluck.

The winner of this bout will face the winner of the Tassadar v xaos contest.


[Edited on 2-10-2003 by John bull 1]

At night, we look out from our bedroom windows and see stars. We see thousands if, away from cities, our night sky is dark and clear. We have, for years, upon gazing at these stars, wondered if other intelligent beings exist in the universe� if, indeed, our minds are not alone in this universe.

Still, the idea that such �alien� sentience could exist troubles some people and causes them to look the other way� to ignore any sign which may come from the stars. Others, on the other hand, find themselves in need of such cosmic companionship, and, so, will grasp on to any theory or belief that delivers them space brothers and saviors. So it is that, in looking at the vast, midnight depths of space, humans are often inspired to create beings that fulfill their desires, needs, and fears.

What I bring to you, though, is an argument for the concept that ET intelligence has visited the Earth that is based on fact. It will be based on observations of events that have happened, not on speculation or chalkboard gymnastics. That is, it must be emphasized, right here, that the belief that Extraterrestrial beings are visiting the Earth is derived from events that have occurred. It is not inspired my mere fantasy or wishful speculation.

To that end, I will not give you theories as to what �alien� motives might be. I will not offer up explanations of how their technology works. I will also not rely upon mathematical speculations or equations that predict what type and how many alien civilizations exist. What I WILL show you are examples gleamed from thousands of UFO reports that demonstrate, conclusively, that craft operated by non-human intelligences are visiting the Earth. My argument will delve into the SIGN, GRUDGE, and BLUE BOOK files � Reports that were officially prepared by the air force of the United States of America � As well as numerous sightings recorded by private organizations. You will hear of experiences recorded by military pilots, public officials, policemen, teachers, scholars, professors, and respected businessmen.

In summary, my goal will simply be to get you to look at the data that is out there regarding UFOs and aliens. You see, as my task is to prove that ETs have been visiting the Earth, I must first get you, the reader, to look at the facts which constitute this phenomena, as, in this case, the record is the argument itself. If you accept the facts... I won't have to convince you of anything.

Now, it must be emphasized that a single fact or observation is worth more than a thousand theories or estimates of probability� So, even if, in this debate, you hear about how a UFO couldn�t be real due to our knowledge of physics or what not� keep in mind that, if it�s there, it�s there�. And that we don�t get to decide what is real based upon how it fits into our ideology. As Hamlet said to Horatio, there is more in Heaven and in Earth than that which is in our philosophy.

Extra Terrestrial beings have never visited earth. The alien myth, in the form that we know it today, was created by the government in the 1940�s and reached widespread popularity in the 1950�s. This myth was created largely to protect military secrets as we entered the Cold War. Most things we now attribute to aliens were earlier attributed to other unexplained phenomena. Many spiritual, many supernatural.
In today�s society, we cannot even go without finding out that some nutcase in NC is charging Ben Affleck with �making threats� against her. We find out immediately when a plane crashes, or when a terrorist attack happens across the globe. To think that we could be regularly visited by aliens and the secret not get out would is unfathomable.
Additionally, Aliens cannot visit in secret, due mostly to the inability of Humans to mind their own business. We insist on sticking our nose in every secret, and uncovering every secret.
There never has been any physical evidence of alien visitation. There is no current evidence of alien visits. The reason is simple. They have not, and are not visiting.

Now that Stump has told you that there is no evidence regarding UFOs� Let me start to show you the evidence�

The USAF conducted, officially, three programs that looked into UFO sightings. They were called Sign (started after the VERY PUBLIC and REPORTED UFO sightings of the Summer of 1947), Grudge, and Blue Book. Blue Book was started after the officer in charge of Grudge reported, to his commanding general, that he was doing a good job ignoring all the �nuts� who were out there� To which the general responded by saying that his old wingman and best friend had seen a UFO on board a radar-equipped fighter. Suffice it to say, BLUE BOOK, under the direction of the highly regarded Capt. Edward Ruppelt, acted, in its early years, as a thorough project that investigated every sighting of interest.

Below is a link to a paper which summarizes all the BB �unknowns� (though it also includes SIGN/GRUDGE �unknowns� and lost files). This is but the tip of the evidence I will present� though, in itself, it recounts hundreds of sightings which were concluded, by the US Government, to NOT be of natural, man-made or psychological origin. That is, all that you are about to read has been verified as bona fide UFOs:


216.128.67.116...

It�s a long list, isn�t it? To head-off Stump�s argument about these being covers to trick the Russians, below I�ve listed a few early sightings that involved endangering crews, objects that operated with performances far ahead of anything operating at that time, and generated (in the Washington case) popular unrest that the USAF would not have wanted to generate:


April 1, 1948: A flight of 4 USAF P-47s led by a Lt. Meyers sighted at close range a crescent shaped craft over an island in the Philippines. Upon engagement of pursuit, the craft escaped at a speed estimated to be about 39,000mph.

April 27, 1950: USAF 2nd Lt. James Petty, flying a F-80C over Japan, sighted a long, cream colored rectangular object following his flight leader. Upon approaching the object, which he thought was a loose tow target at first, it responded with evasive maneuvers that nearly resulted in a mid-air collision. The object then escaped from the area at high speed. On the next day, another F-80C (piloted by Lt. James Harvey) was scrambled to intercept an object spotted by radar over Japan. Upon interception, the square craft began to circle the jet fighter. Afterwards it was reported that during contact both craft vanished from radar.

August 31, 1950: Over Alamogordo, New Mexico ground observation stations, recording a V-2 test, witnessed and recorded several unknown objects that appeared to be monitoring the test range. Four F-86s were scrambled to intercept, but the objects retreated upon their approach. Afterwards, they reappeared.

September 21, 1950: Radar tracked an unknown object make a 1500mph close range pass on two F-84s that nearly resulted in a collision.

July 9, 1951: Lt. George Kinman, flying an F-51, reported a white disc dive upon him at high speed. Within seconds it had recovered to its original altitude, from which it proceeded to make several more runs upon his Mustang.

July 22, 1952: F-94 crew sighted visually and on radar a large circular object that spun and emitted a blue light near Boston. In a series of encounters, throughout the evening, fighter and ground radar crews along the East Coast of the USA recorded this and other objects moving over several metropolitan areas, covering an area from Mass. to Penn/NJ. Indeed, the last week of July 1952 saw a number of radar/visual sightings along the East Coast, resulting in several UFO-USAF jet fighter interceptions�. The most famous of which are perhaps the �Washington Sightings� of the 26/27th, wherein dozens, perhaps hundreds, of civilians watched UFOs that passed over the capitol building at high speed and were recorded by civilian and military airport authorities and led to futile chases by (radar equipped) F-94 fighters (then the most advanced aircraft in USAF service).

August 1, 1952: F-86s scrambled to intercept a radar-confirmed UFO took gun camera footage of a round white object at high speed and altitude.

March 5, 1954: Crews of a KC-97 tanker and C-54 transport had to take evasive action to avoid colliding with UFOs during practice takeoffs/landings. A week later, F-86 pilot Lt. Robert Johnson chased a tail-less fighter sized craft near the same airfield (in French Morocco) but was easily outpaced.

June 23, 1954: An F-51, piloted by Capt. Harry Roe, near Columbus, Ohio was chased by a round white object. Evan after taking evasive action, the Mustang was unable to shake the object.

The BLUEBOOK files document navigable devices/machines/vehicles of unearthly performance, which I will next show to be crewed by ETs. Don't dismiss this off hand.

First, if I was to beleive all of your evidence (which I do not) it would only establish the esistence of UFO's. A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object. Unidentified means it is not an Alien Spacecraft. It simply means we do not know what it was. How can sighting something UNIDENTIFIED be evidence that Aliens have visited earth?

Second, The 'evidence' presented is anecdotal. They accounts are simply stories related by 'eyewitnesses'. There is no physical evidence. Nothing that can be shown to the public. Nothign that can be touched, seen, smelled, or heard, except the anecdotes related by people. There is no corroboration. There is nothing.

What there is evidence of however is the debunking of these UFO sightings. The Roswell myth has been completely debunked inculding every witness and creator of the story. A book written by David E Thomas called Demolishing the Roswell 'Alien' Myth offers a complete dismantling of the most famed 'alien' encounter in history. A synopsis is located at www.skeptictank.org.... This story was created by one man withing the military. It worked in the governments favor, however, so the government was in no hurry to prove it wrong. They were complicit to let the myth snowball, and provide them with a cover for current as well as future research and events that they are not particularly eager to explain to the public. (how convenient that we can blame things on Aliens and the Gov is off the hook)

This Roswell incident, along with the others that OIMD relates to us have simple explanations. In some cases, the pilots were tired, under stress, subjected to extremely strenuous physical conditions. People on the ground often want to see these things. It makes them feel special. Some want to see them so badly that they are completely convinced they in fact have seen them.

The only 'proof' that aliens exist is anectdotal and with scattered 'photographical' evidence. This is NOT physical evidence. Any aline material that doesn't exist on earth found? No. Any Alien life form? No. Again, EVEN if I concede that UFO's have been spotted (which I don't), it would still not prove that Aliens were in them. Only that they were Unidentified.

It�s unfortunate that Stumpy has not taken the time to look at the evidence I have presented� Or to even try to understand what it means� However, he has forced me to delay showing the connection between Extraterrestrials and UFOs by one post, which, perhaps, is his strategy. At any rate, out of respect for the judges, I now have to dismantle his argument before I can move on to more interesting things.

First off, it must be re-emphasized that BLUE BOOK was not a collection of �anecdotal� evidence. It was a program that researched and back-checked every case it became involved with (though at the end it�s efforts were hampered from within the government). What I have given to you, in the last post, is a link to all of the UFO sightings that were identified as �unknowns� or true UFOs by BLUE BOOK/SIGN/GRUDGE over the years. That is, everything in that long (and, again, I hope that you will all take the time to download that PDF file) list was proven to NOT have been caused by natural forces, man-made objects, or psychiatric conditions. All the things mentioned above as explanations, by Stumpy, to be clear, were RULED OUT BY AVIATION EXPERTS.

Also, note how many of these cases, like the Washington sightings, were recorded by radar and observed by multiple, trained witnesses. I hate to break it to Stump, but Radar returns ARE evidence (would he have us throw out all evidence scientists have ever collected through the use of sonar/radar in geological/astronomical/oceanographic studies?). They also involved, often, cases were entire aircrews identified, at close range, aerodynes/vehicles with performances that far outclassed even the best aircraft available at the time. To drive the point home: Vehicles which exceed human engineering capabilities have been observed and recorded by military and civilian experts. As these craft so thoroughly exceed what we can even build today, and as there are no non-human intelligences capable of complex manufacturing on Earth, it is logical to conclude that many of these �unknown� UFOs are of Extraterrestrial manufacture.

�Oh, and BTW, there are numerous instances of UFOs leaving behind chemical traces. A famous example is the Delphos, Kansas landing of 1971, in which a UFO chemically altered the ground it had landed upon (chemical tests were conducted by several accredited universities)*�

Stumpy has also, without providing reasoning, implied that UFOs/Aliens are the work of a US Intelligence program designed to cover up American research. Let me take a second to show some of the many errors in that line of reasoning�

Well, to be frank, using UFOs to cover up classified terrestrial projects would be like if a teenager hid the case of beer in his closet under bags of pot. The bottom line: The cover draws more interest, and problems, than that which is being covered. In the case of UFOs/Aliens, if it were a cover, it didn�t work--- It�s a well-known fact that Soviet spies, in the Cold War, stole many critical nuclear and aerospace secrets (they stole the key knowledge needed to make A and H bombs at the time this �cover� was supposedly operating in the late 40s). They also stole the plans to an actual spaceship! The Soyuz design is based on the 1962 GE proposal for the Apollo program.

So, was this just a red herring campaign that was a huge disaster? Well, for it to even have been conducted, the US military would have needed to construct dozens, if not hundreds, of vehicles capable of rapidly accelerating to tens of thousands of miles per hour that could also hover and make turns at over 20Gs. This simply cannot have occurred because it would require a technological tree/technological paradigm that was TOTALLY separate from all the science known to the world. As scientists/engineers look upon �the shoulders of giants�, such a program would require an entire society of hidden knowledge that was developed on its own.

So, if Stumpy is correct, that means the US developed ultra technologies and displayed them before the world for the sake of hiding them or lesser technologies. To go back to the pot/beer question: If you want to hide your amazing research project, why draw attention to it???

Also, why try to cause WW3?�The famed 1975 SAC F-106 cross-country chases, which involved UFOs that were chased away from missile silos by supersonic jets, is a perfect example of a UFO incident that almost caused �all hell� to break loose (I�ll write more about this later).

Finally, the entire UFO/alien issue has turned segments of the population against the US government. What benefit does that have?

In my next post, I will conclusively link UFOs with Extraterrestrials. For now, I leave you with a photo from the 1952 Washington sightings:






*(Phillips,1971,2003)

As per OIMD's last post, i am assuming the next rebuttal will finally contain some sort of connection between Aliens and these UFO's that he has such irrifutable proof of.
However, the evidence offered is completely anecdotal. There is still not one piece of physical evidence form a UFO. No material that cannot be found on this planet. Still simply stories that were analyzed by many people. THese people have good credentials, and numerous experts have said that their is nothing else that they could have been besides UFO's. SO we are back to square one...OIMD may have convinced some that UNIDENTIFIED flying objects may exist.
For the record, he has not convinced me even that far. I just plain old do not believe any of the so called evidence. Until there is a chunk of alien spacecraft in the Smithsonian, i don't see how people can. Any evidence as strong as OIMD thinks he has would surely be a part of mainstream media (the Enquirer does not count).
Right now, UFO's are still an intellectual excercise played with by people who WANT to beleive. The picture at the bottom of his last rebuttal....What was that? Some sort of PROOF? or just a grainy photograph of some white spots taken aver the Capital?
OIMD seems very worked up about how iron clad his evidence is. Often the weakest case has the strongest argument.
Which brings me to the difficulty of this debate. The scientific process does not provide for the proving that Aliens have never visited Earth. Only them visiting can be proven with some physical evidence. It is like ay scientific experiment. The absence of anything cannot be proven, only the presence. The mistake in OIMD's argument is that without evidence of the presence of Aliens, ergo they must exist. That could not be farther from the truth. To embrace ALiens as being regualr visitors to Earth, ther MUST be physical evidence. There is none.
So far, in our debate, OIMD has spent his opening explaining that he woudl get around to showing evidence through the course of the debate. Then the first rebuttal giving anecdotal evidence of people's accounts of UFO sightings and transcontinental chases. Then his third posting (second rebuttal) chastising me for not reading enough of the second and third hand accounts that sstill contain zero physical evidence OF UFO's. So, with only one rebuttal and a closing left, OIMD has not even begun to speak of Aliens. He has made it sound as if all he has left to do is connect Aliens to the UFO's. Well, considering we do not have a single piece of 'space ship' from one of these UFO's, I am quite certain we do not have any of the contents of them in our possesion, be it Alien, Spirit, Robot, military or whatever. OIMD has nothing except faith and multple accounts of really fast Unidentified flying objects. I must sound like a broken record, the long and short of my argument is that there is no physical evidence, and without that, i will not beleive in something so outlandish as Aliens regularly visiting our planet with us having no idea.

I�m saddened to see that Stump is still not taking the time to read my arguments and evidence closely� Though, like I said before, this is probably just a stonewalling tactic he hopes a few judges might get distracted by. The problem with such a tactic, though, is that it really just amounts to plugging fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, and saying, �I can�t hear you.� His constant references to �anecdotal� evidence are also annoying� according to his misusage of the word the planet Jupiter also does not exist, as there is no �chunk� of it in the Smithsonian. (though, like the various UFOs that crisscrossed Washington DC on July 26, 1952, it�s been observed by eye, photographed and examined by radar).

But let�s go back and re-examine the evidence I have already presented in regards to the Washington sightings�

1)Despite Stump�s claim that UFOs don�t exist because they�ve never been covered by the media as a breaking story, the July 27th issue of the Washington Times presented an entire front page dedicated to the sightings of the night before, including stories which quote USAF pilots describing the craft that they intercepted.

2)The craft were witnessed by hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people on the ground.

3)The craft were photographed by multiple witnesses. I chose to use the picture I did in the last post because it showed the craft over the capitol. There are other, closer shots available out there.

4)The craft were recorded by air and ground-based radar. RADAR IS A SCIENTIFICALLY ACCEPTED FORM OF MEASUREMENT.

5)The craft were witnessed at close range by various fighter pilots scrambling from multiple bases across the eastern USA.

Stump claims that this just proves that bona fide UFOs do exist. Ok, so, rather than just doing nothing and denying evidence for multiple replies, it�s time, now, for Stump to PROVE how these are classified military aircraft. He claims that he does not have to do anything, as this is my argument to make (do to which he can take advantage of the debate�s one link per post structure), but, as I have, through use of BLUEBOOK evidence, demonstrated that UFOs are physical craft exhibiting performance capabilities FAR beyond anything that currently exists on Earth, I have already shown that such UFOs can ONLY be of extraterrestrial origin. Now is the time for Stump to do some work, he must, in order to prove me wrong:

1)Provide evidence of a secret government project
2)Provide evidence regarding whatever technology allows craft in this project to perform maneuvers FAR more advanced than anything aircraft can do. Though I do not have to show how ET craft actually work, only that they exist, Stumpy MUST show how these marvelous human-built craft work, as, otherwise, his argument amounts to a �it just is so� line.
3)Provide evidence of the industrial and research infrastructure that built these craft (in 1952, it took thousands of people to build a single F-94� and thousands more to do the collective research that produced such vehicles). Are we to believe that a few guys, in total secret, designed and built a fleet of craft that can run circles around today�s space shuttles?
4)Explain why the military would endanger its own aircrews by having their secret craft nearly ram their point defense interceptors.
5)Explain why the military would overrun its own defense network around places like Washington DC at a time when Soviet attacks were a daily fear.
6)Explain why, inorder to hide these secret craft, the military had them fly up and down the east coast one night in a manner which drew public attention.

If he can do that, then he will have rebutted my argument that these craft can only be of extraterrestrial origin. Otherwise, as these craft DO exist and had their presence RECORDED, being that there are no non-human technological intelligences on Earth, and that no human organization can construct (even remotely) craft like these, one must logically conclude that a non-human intelligence built them, and, the last time I checked, dolphins and monkeys do not know how to fly.

So, though, barring an actual argument from Stumpy, I�ve already shown that craft of ET origin are visiting the Earth, I�d like to now present reports of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, wherein people have seen ETs emerge from craft like those I�ve already introduced you to.

Jacques Vallee began compiling these �Magonia� files decades ago(NOTE: �greys� were called �dwarfs� before about 1980). Results for �Being� query from overall catalogue:

www.temporaldoorway.com...


They record hundreds of first-hand encounters between humans and aliens. I�ll admit that these are personal testimonies and do not have things like radar evidence to back them up� But there are thousands of them, testified to by people from all walks of life.

While OIMD has latched onto one of my possible explanations of UFOs (government coverup) to debunk my stance, he is remiss. I offered other possibilities, spiritual, supernatural, or even the group mentality of people that all see something they do not understand and are led by media or other popular mass forces to believe it was a certain thing.

He is mistaken to say that I must prove it is a govenment coverup. Even if it is not a govenrment conspiracy, it far from proves that Aliens have and are visiting the Earth.

I call his evidence 'anecdotal' becasue that is exactly what it is. It is evidence via photographs, even radar readouts, or people relating a story of what they saw (or thought they saw) in the sky. It is NOT a piece of a spacecraft. It is NOT a metal, polymer, or material that is in custody of a human that cannot be found here on our planet. It is not a cell from a living (or once living) organism that has been collected for scientific study (or for that matter, a trophy hanging on Joe Bob's wall in New Mexico). It just isn't here.

The argument about Jupiter almost holds water. Except we are not trying to prove that Jupiter once visited the Earth. Proving that would certainly require physical evidence (like a piece of Jupiter found in Omaha and now housed in the Smithsonian).

To state that a bunch of people have seen something UNEXPLAINED in the sky and it therefore must be Aliens is absurd. Before humans understood techtonic plates, they assumed an earthquake meant 'the gods must be angry'. When Humans sailed west from Spain and never returned, we assumed the Earth was flat. Assuming something because you have no better explanation at the time does not make it real. Assuming UNIDENTIFIED objects are Alien crafts amounts to the same thing.

Dinosaurs used to be thought fanciful, even mythical, creatures. Then we uncovered fossilized PHYSICAL evidence of their existence. This PHYSICAL evidence proved that they did exist. Hundreds of people have 'seen' and photographed the Yeti, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster. These things are not real, and there is no physical evidence to prove they are. Aliens are in the same boat.

As far as the 'evidence' of 'dwarfs' or 'greys' goes, I am not discouraged that your link does not work. From my own research I know that they are nothing more than accounts people are relating of " this one time, at band camp, I saw an Alien come out of his spaceship" ( I jest, I know none of them claim to see them at band camp, but they might as well). There is no piece of tissue from one of these creatures anywhere, in any lab on Earth. Still zero PHYSICAL evidence.

Proving that Aliens have visited, and especially continue to do so takes some stronger evidence than people seeing and even photographing or recording with radar unexplained things. That only proves one thing...that they are UNEXPLAINED. Creating an explanation does not make it so. Physical evidence makes it so. See none? There's your answer.

In conclusion, I ask you all only to look at the evidence, the history, the memories� and the experience of what I am tasked here to prove. As I said in the beginning, if you look at the evidence, I will have to do little arguing. What we see through the BLUEBOOK �Unknown� summarizes I have presented are the records of craft that could only have been manufactured, due to the maneuvers they can perform, by a non-human civilization. I am asking you to assume nothing� Instead, I am only demonstrating how DEDUCTIVE REASONING and LOGIC point to an unearthly origin for these craft. To be frank, at a certain level, this is how all science is done�Taking what is known and, by using qualities of what is known in dialectical, logical elimination, discovering that which is unknown. This method is as old as Aristotle� In fact, such reasoning is what, during its rediscovery in the Renaissance, restored science, as, during the Middle Ages, people only accepted what they could touch (and had read about from authorities) as being real. Deductive reasoning, to be frank, allows us to understand what cannot be felt�or stored in a museum.

So, to review my reasoning, let me point out that there were, in 1952 (or even now) NO aircraft capable of performing the maneuvers associated with the UFOs that night. These UFOs were POSITIVELY identified as physical objects, having been recorded by the same radar principles we use to explore the ocean depths, the earth below our feet, and deep space. As Stumpy never demonstrated that these objects could be of man-made origins, and as they are real craft that performed maneuvers that responded to those F-94s (and so many other craft in other incidents), we have no choice but to determine that they are of non-human construction. And, like I said before, monkeys do not know how to fly.

I would have responded to a mass-hysteria/cultural archetype theory for UFOs IF STUMPY HAD MADE SUCH AN ARGUMENT or presented data relating to it. As is, I believe those radars in the fronts of those jets precludes the mass-hysteria option.

My CE3 link works. ATS users have exceeded its bandwidth.

Finally, Stump asks for something he can hold� a �piece� of UFO. Did Montezuma own the helm from Cortez� ship? Would theoretical Moonmen now posses a chunk of the CSM �Columbia�?

I can certaily understand continuing to argue that stories related by people is 'evidence'. That, with a few photos and radar reports is all that OIMD had to back him up.

Lets review. Even if OIMD met his burden of proof for UFO's (which he did not), he has still come nowhere near to proving that Aliens visited the Earth, and certainly not that they continue to do so.

The helm of Cortez's ship may not be in Montezuma's possesion, but there was certainly physical evidence Cortez left behind. 'theoretical moonmen' would definately not have a piece of the Columbia considering that the Columbia never visited the Moon. However, there is still physical evidence on the moon of the Lunar Landing Module (ie an American Flag we left behind).

My argument has not changed. The evidence to support UFO's is anecdotal at best, and thats not even what the debate is about. OIMD asks you to first beleive that UFOs exist based on scattered accounts, then he asks you to take a leap of faith that an UNIDENTIFIED flying object must be Aliens, because it couldn't be anything else (not something spiritual, or supernatural, or man made?). Then he asks you to assume again that this means that Aliens continue to visit the earth. There are simply too many leaps to take.

ZERO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. We left it on the moon. We even left some on Mars. The dinosaurs left behind physical evidence. In fact, every single accepted scientific fact in the world has physical evidence of some variety. We even now have physical evidence of the elusive neutrino.

The absence of physical evidence of Aliens visiting the Earth is exactly what makes it a myth.

Thankyou both Stumpy and OIMD.

I am 1 judge short but I do have a result.

A=
B=Stumpy
C=Stumpy
D=OIMD
E=OIMD
F=OIMD
G=OIMD

"Once again congratulations to the debaters on the focus and detail. OIMD has selected well, presented well and ordered well and has tried to pin Stumpy down; but - Stumpers has refrained from addressing a detailed list of the familiar and has focused upon "evidence' and upon driving home what amounts to a tough "prove it" argument.
Just Stumpy on balance, I'd say: for thetoric and concentration."

"OIMD wins. He seemed much more knowledgeable of his position and was very convincing (although I do not subscribe to the alien notion). I don't think stumpy prepared well enough, and he doesn't seem to have the abilities OIMD has."

"Interesting.I'm going to give my vote to Stumpy........Just.His argument may have been stonewalling but what else could he do?He stuck to his guns and wasn't drawn.I thought the point that UFO's are not proof of Aliens a good one.I also realised that he could not prove the absence of Aliens.(bit like proving the absence of WMD's in Iraq even now).I would of liked him to draw OIMD on statistics.I think that may have served his argument well.OIMD did a great job too.He certainly did more work but it was Stumpy's economy of words that won my vote.
A bit like OIMD with heavy guns pounding stumpy's thick walled citidel.A siege rather than a battle.Very close to a stalemate."

"OIMD-get's my vote, from the begining of the debate until the closing argument, he gave so much information that even I cocked my eyebrow in disbelief that there is so much evidence out there, that I never even read until his debate. I think the most skeptical of skeptics would also swing further in the direction of the existance of aliens by simply reading his
debate side! Simply incredible, so good that I've saved his writings for future reference
Stumpy did a good job, but he just wasn't strong enough and ignored too many very important facts presented by OIMD, which made me believe OIMD that much more. Good jod though, very tough competition Stumpy!"

"OIMD presented a lot of evidence in support of his argument. Stumpy ignored the evidence presented and failed to present a good argument against the idea of Extra-Terrestrial Life visiting earth. I have to give this one to OIMD"

"Damn...that was a pretty good debate. My vote goes to OIMD. The structure of his debate, the "facts" he used were perfect. Not only should OIMD win the debate(IMO) if there is ever a research project on this subject, he should be the team leader. Great job by both debators."

Congratulations to both Stumpy and OIMD on a great debate.Perhaps these two should have met later in the tournament.I'll have to look closer at how I seed debators in the future,taking into account previous debates.

Only one can go through and it is OIMD.Who will face Tassadar in the next round.

Well done OIMD. I realize I did not present enough research of my own, that was a major drawback.

From a purely scientific method standpoint, Aliens visiting earth can never be ruled out, only ruled in. This presented a tough battle for me, and I did not quite make the case.

Well done OIMD (good extensive research), and I hope another debate starts soon. Anybody interested in an exhibition? I will take all challengers....possibly even a grudge match with OIMD.