What do you think about the death Penalty?

I am not completely against the Death Penalty, I just think that the people who are sentanced to death should be absolutely, 100% guilty of the crime. Not just the first person who the police think did it, because a lot of the time if the police cannot find who did it, the will pin it on the next best thing and make all of the evidence point to this person. Or simple facts will be overlooked in the courtroom.

I am not religious in any way, so this next part is all from what I have heard, or seen in movies. I am not trying to offend anyone. Does God not decide who lives and dies? Does he have a life plan for everyone? So, if someone were to die by the hands of another, is that not the way God intended it to be?

Like I said, I don't know about the religious part.

Originally posted by saint4God
Here's my stance:

your stance? more like the bible's stance, and more precisely the stance of the author of matthew. thanks for the morality lesson on turning the other cheek, but quite frankly this has nothing to do with god, the bible or christianity.

and anyways, surely jesus was destined to get executed? hence, if there was no execution, 'hypothetically' he could have never died for our sins. so you disagree with death penalty, yet it was the only way your savior and lord could take away your sins? slightly hypocritical don't you think. sure he could have been killed another way...but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as dramatic as an execution on a cross.

and back to the debate of the death penalty...

sure there might be the question of 'who has the right to sentence a person to death', yet why does any person feel they have the right to take a life by murder. maybe two wrongs don't make a right, but if a person has been convicted of numerous murders, then they do not deserve to be a part of society. there are still murderers out there, killing people, hence the death sentence or a life sentence in prison is not a deterant. if it is not a deterant to the murderers, then the death sentence to them cannot be of any significance, and therefore you're probably making a bigger deal out of it, than is actually neccesary.

it seems to me that the people on death row obviously didn't care about the murders they commited, as they wouldn't have done them if they were so worried about the death penalty. to be honest, it seems as though this debate here of for or against the death penalty, the people here seem more worried than murderers do of the death penalty.

i think some people here need to lighten up. if a person kills 20 people, all pre-meditated murders, planned to the exact point of exectution...there's no question of merely putting them behind bars, they should get the death penalty. we don't need people like that in society, prison or even on this planet...then sooner they're dead, the better. but then we come back to the question... 'why do you feel it's your right to judge someone and give them the death penalty'...well i'm not the one doing the judging, i'm just backing it up. i think murderers should count their lucky stars that the usa has a pretty humane way of dealing with the death penalty, unlike some countries that still employ the rifle squad.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
your stance? more like the bible's stance, and more precisely the stance of the author of matthew.

Thanks for illustrating my point.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
thanks for the morality lesson on turning the other cheek, but quite frankly this has nothing to do with god, the bible or christianity.

It sure do. If God is the Judge, and determines good and evil, then the law is His.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and anyways, surely jesus was destined to get executed?

I believe that's what he was saying, yes.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
hence, if there was no execution, 'hypothetically' he could have never died for our sins.

God chose his result not man per previous statement you'd made about being destined.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so you disagree with death penalty, yet it was the only way your savior and lord could take away your sins?

Who said it was the only way? It was the way it happened. I don't get to say "Jesus HAD to have died by execution" for us to be saved, rather "Jesus DID die by execution". On top of that, he was executed and committed no crime. Does that tell you something?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
slightly hypocritical don't you think.

Jesus' words in that passage, not mine.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
sure he could have been killed another way...but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as dramatic as an execution on a cross.

I don't remember "drama" being a prerequisite of salvation.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and back to the debate of the death penalty...

sure there might be the question of 'who has the right to sentence a person to death', yet why does any person feel they have the right to take a life by murder. maybe two wrongs don't make a right,

Exactly.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but

Hehe, thought there'd be one of those words....

Originally posted by shaunybaby
if a person has been convicted of numerous murders, then they do not deserve to be a part of society.

Do you deserve to be a part of society? Do I deserve to be a part of society? What is it that we deserve?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
there are still murderers out there, killing people, hence the death sentence or a life sentence in prison is not a deterant. if it is not a deterant to the murderers, then the death sentence to them cannot be of any significance, and therefore you're probably making a bigger deal out of it, than is actually neccesary.

Kudos to the person on page one who proved statistically it's not a deterrent . AKA, it don't work.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it seems to me that the people on death row obviously didn't care about the murders they commited, as they wouldn't have done them if they were so worried about the death penalty. to be honest, it seems as though this debate here of for or against the death penalty, the people here seem more worried than murderers do of the death penalty.

Totally agree. Where is the "penalty"?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think some people here need to lighten up. if a person kills 20 people, all pre-meditated murders, planned to the exact point of exectution...there's no question of merely putting them behind bars, they should get the death penalty. we don't need people like that in society, prison or even on this planet...then sooner they're dead, the better.

"People like" what? What person for you is deserving to be on the planet?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but then we come back to the question... 'why do you feel it's your right to judge someone and give them the death penalty'...well i'm not the one doing the judging, i'm just backing it up.

I see, not wielding the black hood and double-headed axe, just cheering on the guy who does?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think murderers should count their lucky stars that the usa has a pretty humane way of dealing with the death penalty, unlike some countries that still employ the rifle squad.

If the death penalty is implemented, the result is the same.

We all deserve to be part of the system untill we decide to # up and act against the society. "Deserve" is more of a figure of speach in this context but it still applies. God created the world for us to live in, yet he sends us to hell for exterminating the one thing that causes chaos after religion itself. "Thou shalt not kill, and thoult especially not kill someone who hath killeth innoent people because they are just as valuable as you, in my eyes, and thats what matters". No they arent, they proved that already.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Panzeroth]

Originally posted by Panzeroth
They dont belong to the society we live in.

Not according to the Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life...

They give up certain rights when they disobey laws of the land, but life is one that is inalienable. I don't know how we get away with the death penalty. But the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution obviously don't mean a whole lot these days anyway.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
We all deserve to be part of the system untill we decide to # up and act against the society.

Then I should've been dead long ago. Thank God for...well, God. I'd be a distant memory under your rule.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
"Deserve" is more of a figure of speach in this context but it still applies. God created the world for us to live in, yet he sends us to hell for exterminating the one thing that causes chaos after religion itself. "Thou shalt not kill, and thoult especially not kill someone who hath killeth innoent people because they are just as valuable as you, in my eyes, and thats what matters". No they arent, they proved that already.

Christ taught that even if we are angry at our brother, we're held to judgement just like a murderer (Matthew 5:21). Panzeroth, have you ever been angry at someone?

Originally posted by Benevolent HereticThey give up certain rights when they disobey laws of the land, but life is one that is inalienable. I don't know how we get away with the death penalty. But the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution obviously don't mean a whole lot these days anyway.

Lol funny thing you dug up there, by the way does it apply to only Americans or everyoe in the world? I would guess the first but do not have any insight at all with US law so I wouldn't know.
Yet another contradiction to the list.

Originally posted by Panzeroth
Lol funny thing you dug up there, by the way does it apply to only Americans or everyoe in the world? I would guess the first but do not have any insight at all with US law so I wouldn't know.
Yet another contradiction to the list.

Sorry, didn't note your location. But it only applies to the USA. Those documents are the foundation of our government.

I am unfamiliar with the death penalty in other nations.

Yes, contradictions abound. :shk:

Originally posted by saint4GodThen I should've been dead long ago. Thank God for...well, God. I'd be a distant memory under your rule.

Utopia

Originally posted by saint4GodChrist taught that even if we are angry at our brother, we're held to judgement just like a murderer (Matthew 5:21). Panzeroth, have you ever been angry at someone?

Interesting view this god of your has on justice. I'm open for discussion, but biblical quotes and references are by no means concidered valid argument to me. What is more interesting and on topic is whether or not criminals to this extent can contribute to the progression of mankind and it's already sky high list of problems. In my opinion they arent, and trash goes in the garbage.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Panzeroth]

Originally posted by saint4God
It sure do. If God is the Judge, and determines good and evil, then the law is His.

that's a hypothetical judge, 'if' your god is real. and i don't see god here now saying the death penalty is wrong, so what's the point in law if it's not upheld.

On top of that, he was executed and committed no crime. Does that tell you something?

hitler executed 6 million jews that commited no crime. what's you point? that innocent people die. well state the obvious why don't you.

Originally posted by Benevolent HereticSorry, didn't note your location. But it only applies to the USA. Those documents are the foundation of our government.

I am unfamiliar with the death penalty in other nations.

Yes, contradictions abound. :shk:

That's ok, this forum seems to be crowded mostly by Americans so I dont expet everyone to check my location all the time, I wouldn't either in a Norwegian forum I learned about the fouding of the US in high shool but I must admit as it hasn't really been a subject I've put a lot of effort into since then.

I believe most if not all western nations don't accept death penalty, but I can't say for sure. Here in Norway the maximum sentence was untill recently 21 jail years, or 15-16 real years. (Don't ask, I dont know why) but it was changed a couple years back. Now you can be sentenced to "21" years, plus an additional 5 years if you havent showed signs of improvements. The convict then gets a new evaluation after the next 5 years and so on and so forth. I mentioned in on the first page that a relative of mine was killed at an early age, the "leader" of the two who did it was the first person to be sentenced under that law.

Originally posted by Panzeroth

Originally posted by saint4GodThen I should've been dead long ago. Thank God for...well, God. I'd be a distant memory under your rule.

Utopia

Ouch. I believe we're done talking. Why would I discuss anything with someone who wished I were dead?

[edit on 26-1-2006 by saint4God]

Drug dealers....death penalty
Drug dealers that sell to kids....death penalty..parents get to be on the firing squad if they wish
Child Molesters.......death penalty.
Rest of you.....chain gang, make big rocks into little ones, little ones into sand, repeat process.
Your "rights" end when you commit the crime. No more tv in the cells, no more free education...college degree, etc. No lawsuits that the prison food is served too hot / cold, whatever.
"kill 'em all...let God sort 'em out"

Originally posted by shaunybaby
that's a hypothetical judge, 'if' your god is real. and i don't see god here now saying the death penalty is wrong, so what's the point in law if it's not upheld.

It's been translated from the Greek text to English, I'm not sure what part of "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also" is unclear, but doubt any clarifications I have to offer will be sufficient.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
hitler executed 6 million jews that commited no crime.

What? Who are you talking to? Why do people have to say Hitler's name when I say Christ's name? Nevermind, I know why.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
what's you point? that innocent people die. well state the obvious why don't you.

How many Jews said they were the son of God, died, and came back from the dead and told us through his death we can be forgiven if we believe in him? Just one.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by saint4God]

Due to errors, it is impossible to be 100% sure of the correct application of the death penalty. And even if the penalty is correctly applied, according to the laws, the same penalty may one day be considered inhuman. The death penalty is too final, too definitive, and it is an excessive power in the hands of the state. The state always abuses power sooner or later, given the chance. You have to see that the legal process is like a machine, so the decision is ultimately impersonal and therefore inhuman. I could even say that the decision makes no sense at the individual level: it is explicitly a decision taken to the advantage of the group. The death penalty is also unfair because it puts all the crimes beyond a certain gravity at the same level.

There are inumerous arguments against the death penalty. The only valid arguments I can see for the death penalty are:
1. To increase security by removing danger (logically).
2. To give some sense of closure to victimized people.

To 1, I would answer: can't we do better? Do we really have to kill those people (because that is what it is)? Even people like Hitler, what could we have learned if we had preserved them for scientific study?

To 2, I would answer that all the anger and rage is understandable, but we shouldn't make laws (dealing with important things) based on volatile states of mind.

Originally posted by saint4GodOuch. I believe we're done talking. Why would I discuss anything with someone who wished I were dead?

[edit on 26-1-2006 by saint4God]

Not that way silly willy, I meant a rule by humans who use their head instead of an book that was written ages ago by people who lived under completely different circumstances, in a completely different world and in need of completely different things to give their life meaning without opposing what was then conidered logical. You're born with a brain, use it.
How come in a biblical point of view you are allowed to defend yourself against attakers, killing them if neccesary, but not discharge of potential re-killers? It's basially the same thing, only difference is that the "re-killers" have already commited the crime once. I'm not saying everybody who are done serving time in jail for a murder kill again, but really there is no point in giving them a chance to MAYBE not repeat themselves. Besides, as I already said, they've spilled their share of milk. Trash -> trashcan.

Originally posted by saint4God
What? Who are you talking to? Why do people have to say Hitler's name when I say Christ's name? Nevermind, I know why.

no. you brought up innocent people being executed...and i brought up another 6 million to your one. just putting in to contrast that's all. hence, lots of innocent people die, not just your 'o great saviour, jesus'.

How many Jews said they were the son of God, died, and came back from the dead and told us through his death we can be forgiven if we believe in him? Just one.

so that's what it's all about? you believe in god so you are forgiven...it's like built in guilt you have or something?

Originally posted by Panzeroth
How come in a biblical point of view you are allowed to defend yourself against attakers, killing them if neccesary, but not discharge of potential re-killers? It's basially the same thing, only difference is that the "re-killers" have already commited the crime once. I'm not saying everybody who are done serving time in jail for a murder kill again, but really there is no point in giving them a chance to MAYBE not repeat themselves. Besides, as I already said, they've spilled their share of milk. Trash -> trashcan.

This issue of potential re-killers is explored in Minority Report. The question is: how do you know? How can you predict? And besides, even with all the defects, isn't there anything salvageable?
And more: why treat the same way a person who commits 1 crime and a person who commits 10? This is not justice, it is just that we don't know better. Maybe we don't know better because we don't make the effort.

Originally posted by StarBreatherThis issue of potential re-killers is explored in Minority Report. The question is: how do you know? How can you predict? And besides, even with all the defects, isn't there anything salvageable?

Not entirely, in Monority Report they catch people before they commit the first crime, in real life they arent caught untill after they have done it. They have already as I mentioned earlier, proved that they dont fit in. Why give them a second chance when there is such a high risk at stake? Statistially, ex convicts are more likely to commit crimes again. There is no need to predict, they already did it.

Originally posted by StarBreatherAnd more: why treat the same way a person who commits 1 crime and a person who commits 10? This is not justice, it is just that we don't know better. Maybe we don't know better because we don't make the effort.

Because in my opinion killing one person already qualifies you for the death penalty. There is no point in giving them a milder punishment because some other guy killed two, three or fifty seven.

How good it is to recline on a chair in front of my computer screen and say, "I am safe".
Someone said: "they do not deserve to be a part of society".
But this is not the point. Being alive has nothing to do with being a part of society. They don't need to be a part of society, but they can be left alive.
You who are so careful about society, do you know how extreme acts can shape a society? In the middle ages
there were hanging devices everywhere, in public sight. Surely this must have had an influence.

This debate all comes to this point: what kind of society do you want to live in? Why do you baheve today as if you were a bunch of medieval ignorants?