The conspiracy against men and fathers

It concerns me that this is`nt talked about especially here on ATS,its a very touchy subject that affects most of us in the western world but one that needs to be heard if you have no idea it exists.

Over the past 18 years that i`m aware of here in Australia (but in no way exclusive to)since they brought in the no blame divorce laws in 1988 there is a growing acceptance through the push of the Governments, media and is common in most modern day movies to portray Fathers as dead beat dads in after divorce.That very word is offensive knowing full well what happens to fathers who divorce be it their decision or their wifes,its usually the women who initiates it.Not that i blame women i blame the Government`s for dangling the carrot so to speak,that this is an option where they can for what ever reason destroy their family and husband and be financially better off.

Debunking Divorce Myths
health.discovery.com...

I would hazard a guess that most people here on ATS have been affected by divorce directly or indirectly.

Personally i was affected by this in 1992,since then and working with the public i know how common it is and the affects divorce and the laws surrounding it cause and are unevenly balanced in favor of the female through assets and custody of the child/ren.

I have known many close friends(male)that have lost everything they had and worked for only to lose it to some other guy his wife so chooses,one guy i know had to divide his asset's (house,business that only he ran)to his ex because she turned lesbian with her best friend,she still got the Kids,tho he did get to have them every other weekend.(how nice)

In Australia there are approx 1.3 million children who live apart from there natural parents,well thats what happens when two people divorce but why then do women 90% of the time get the custody of the child/ren reducing the fathers role to an ATM card with little to no say in the up bringing of his children?

5 fathers suicide in Australia everyday which is said to be higher than the nation road toll,not taking into account that some fathers suicide through the use of their cars.Yet nearly every ad break on TV you`ll see them spouting off about why and what a great job speed cameras do,and never have the statistics come out in the media about the suicides of dads who have lost everything and can see no other choice.

A site called "dads on the air"here in Australia has done a lot for fathers,they are a radio station and they have a forum,when i used to read there many years ago a post came in that i just noticed and read it,it was a last goodbye suicide post he said sorry he`s not a fighter and cant see any way to get on with his life now that he is financially crippled by the C$A(child support agency)the admin of that site was able with the help of police track him down as was found just alive, he had over dosed on some type of pills and took him to hospital.A big thumbs up to their admin.

Chances are you as male has or will go through this and experience it first hand,not only that but if and when you can get back on your feet you may find another lovely lady like i did tho she can be penalized by the same laws that affect you.

In the UK there are some guys that dress up as batman or spiderman?type things and climb up buildings with there message about the plight of fathers just to get people aware because the media does`nt.The media dont hold back in their support of women tho.The same unbalance i know exists in the US and Newzealand.

It could i guess be seen by some that i`m against women, not at all,i`d be the first to help or protect them,thats in mens nature to be that way,well most i`d say,tho this is the very reason why men allow these things to happen.

There has been a huge ad campaign running in Australia about domestic violence against women will not be tolerated,obviously it should be no domestic violence will be tolerated because........some studies show that it is equal to or greater that violence towards men is by women.Most men would`nt report it,i think thats the difference.Let alone the times around the world that some mothers kill their children and get off the charges.Though they are still to be considered the primary carers over males and male are the providers.(is`nt that what women rights groups fight against?)

www.mensrights.com.au...

There are feminazi groups (i like to call them)and sites around the world that i wont search and link for i`ve read them before and i`m sure they would come close to breaching ATS`s censors though their hate of men.

If any fathers are in crisis here in Australia there are a number of org to help you.
www.dadsindistress.asn.au...

"Dads on the air"has a lot more links
www.dadsontheair.com...

Apologies if i`m not totally up to speed on it all, its been along time since i looked into it more deeply,tho it still exists.

I believe its order out of chaos and what better chaos could be caused than to start it within the family unit.

Basically your screwed if your a guy and your marraige ends....my brothers Fat-Psycho wife cheated on him and ended up taking him to the cleaners....even tho he caught her in bed with her "classmate" from the Massage school. He has to give her a little over $2200 per/month and took out a refinance loan to pay off the wide-body.....who never did crap to pay for that house.

Its sickening....I could see why some guys go off the deep end and start blasting away with their Remington Shotgun.

Maximu§

That's why you always, always, always, get a PRENUP!!! I cannot stress how important that is.

One other thing, it really bothers me that no matter the reason of the divorce, the woman most of the time gets the children. I don't understand that, a father cant take care of his own children?

in most marriages, who earns the most money?
and well, if there's small children involved, how much will they affect the earning power of the custodial parent?
this is why most of the time, the mom will get the kids....

as far as it mostly being women who initiates divorce........!!!

ya know, there was a couple who lived next to my grandmother's house when I was growing up. God, there must of been 6 or more kids. he was a lawyer, and well, they really did pretty well financially. Well, to make a long story short, they divorced.....so he could enjoy his new relationship with his much younger and prettier secretary......
this was before the relaxing of the divorce laws I believe.

a friend of mine, a man, divorced his wife, of course, she was a drug addict and well a proven danger to their kids. he had custody of his kids. but, well, all those nice services and programs that are out there for single moms, ya know, subsidized childcare, ect....well they didn't extend to him, mainly because he made a decent paycheck!! unfortunately, so didn't his baby sitter. they struggled just to make if from paycheck to paycheck.

another friend I know, divorced her husband....of course, well, he pushed her down a flight of stairs and caused her to have a miscarriage....

my father divorced his first wife....understandable really if you believe the story...since she hit him over the head with a frying pan!!!

my mom was married once before she married my father, she was divorced to ....although I ain't sure who initiated the divorce....but well, it was her husband that split on her.

another freind divorced her husband.....after he left her for another man.

one divorced women divorce him after she found out that the reason her baby wasn't growing the way she should have been was that the guy was feeding the baby food to the cat....

one man left his wife after he found out that she had a guy on the side while he was off fighting in nam....

and well, I totally disagree that it's mostly the women that initiates divorces. anyone willing to agree that it's mostly stupid, selfish, idiots that cause divorces, weather they be men or women, stupidity isn't prejudice, it will settle in on anyone who is willing to allow it.

but, as things equalize, and more women earn paychecks comparable to what men have always enjoyed. well, eventually, I think you will see child custody being more equal also. it's just that it costs alot to raise a family, and well, it costs a heck of alot more when that family has two roofs to pay for instead of one, because they just don't want to live under one anymore. the courts aren't gonna be eager to take what money that the family has coming in by giving the one earning that money the extra responsibility of caring for the kids...and, it's unrealistic to expect someone who hasn't been considered the primary wageearner, or had routinely had to place career aside in the name of family, to suddenly expect them to go out and get a job that matches that which the primary wageearner.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Basically your screwed if your a guy and your marriage ends....my brothers [deleted remark] wife cheated on him and ended up taking him to the cleaners....even tho he caught her in bed with her "classmate" from the Massage school. He has to give her a little over $2200 per/month and took out a refinance loan to pay off the wide-body.....who never did crap to pay for that house.

Ive read all three posts and thanks for your input,instead of repeating what i have to say to all three i`ll say it here.

I can sympathize to the above quote, very similar experience to mine except i had to pay more than that at one stage.

Even tho a female can be with another partner who supports her,and receive an annual income of $35,000 plus before the non custodial parents responsibility is reduced some what.To be paying any amounts let alone in my case in excess of $30,000 a year taken from your gross taxable income and not to be able at the end of the year claim Dependants?

Personally before i had a larger income i could not support myself without resorting to asking for food(left overs at the end of the day)from fast food places,pay a bit of rent and maintain a car to get to work to pay for my children.Let alone travel 2000km to see my 2 boys.

When eventually i took a job working my ring off 7 days a week the support went up and when i had enough money to travel to see the boys,i was informed that because a few years had passed i would have to pay for a chaperon from them to have contact.Because the boys would be unfamiliar with me.

I have read ex wives posts in forums that acknowledge the problems their ex partners are put through and sympathize and even try and help them if they can.These Ladies are rare i`d guess break ups are usually messy.

There have always been differences between men and women and always will be.Sadly infidelity has probably always existed as well,i would how ever bet that its more rife now than ever.

Please understand my gripe is not one "for or against men or women"in this situation,i believe a true conspiracy exists here somewhere.I know that there are bad husbands as well as wives its not about that.

I do believe programs run on TV especially soapies program people(mainly women during the day,though more and more soapies are on at night under the guise of series)or educate them to think that this is a normal way to live.

Once this is seen as normal either by the man or woman your marriage is in severe jeopardy,once the wife knows that she can destroy her partner and he also is aware of it,she can start to threaten him to make him bend this way or that or cope the consequences,which i believe is a or the biggest factor in domestic violence.

As a man i dont have to imagine the feelings the loss of your children and assets threaten by anyone especially someone who is supposed to be your mate for life,hence there are a lot of domestic violence cases or murders.

If the statistics are right for all western societies that 1 out of 2 marriages fail thats a lot of children that are deeply affected,and normalized to divorce so i can safely bet that its only going to get worse in future generations.

Over the past 5 to 10 years i`ve even watched the lead up to both mothers day and fathers day on TV,mothers are commended and so they should be,fathers on the other hand are laughed at with things like "ring or text in the most ridiculous thing your dad has done".

Take the Simpson's for example,marg is the good one,homer`s the goof.As funny as the show might be to some as it is to me,who can really say what effect these type of shows have on growing minds.

A newish release,war of the worlds,when it was being marketed over here (Australia)they said Tom Cruise plays a dead beat dad.Not they i even saw him as a dead beat dad,just a dad thats looked down on by his ex which went off with a doctor/lawyer? and then filtered though to his children.

I`ve noticed these things more and more through the media.

I`ll repeat Australia alone 5 dads commit suicide a day because of this.

If young adults read this thread (post)and your parents separated and your dad went off the rails in your or your Mums opinion or he did`nt see you as much as you had of liked,take into consideration these factors that may well have been the reason for it and understand that this is not what he wanted.I can safely say this on many dads behalf because i personally know they exist.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
That's why you always, always, always, get a PRENUP!!! I cannot stress how important that is.

One other thing, it really bothers me that no matter the reason of the divorce, the woman most of the time gets the children. I don't understand that, a father cant take care of his own children?

Wouldn't it be nice if prenups weren't needed and trust, one of the things marriage is meant to be built on, to settle things was only needed.

Here are some things people would find it hard to believe about mothers,though keep in mind if it was said about fathers it would be easier to believe.

Run Date: 06/27/01
By Cheryl L. Meyer
WEnews contributor
Mothers suffering from profound depression differ from teens who kill their newborns and mothers who neglect or abuse their children. They often provide unheeded warnings and attempt suicide.

(WOMENSENEWS)--The only thing that is really unique about Andrea Yates in Texas is that people are paying attention to her case. They didn't pay attention when Andrea repeatedly voiced her symptoms of depression. Moreover, most people barely note the hundreds of news stories that appear each year about mothers who kill their children. So why is our attention riveted upon Andrea Yates?

Clearly it is unusual when a woman kills more than one child, especially five, but it has happened before. Ophilia Yip, a Chinese immigrant, drove the family van off a pier into the Los Angeles Harbor killing herself and her four children in 1991, but that case received little media attention.

In fact, we found several thousand cases from 1990 to 1999 involving mothers who killed their children, and we researched over 200 of them. Approximately 10 percent of these women had killed more than one child. However, other than Susan Smith, who drowned her two small sons in Union, S.C., most people would find it difficult to name another one of these mothers. So why do Susan Smith and Andrea Yates rivet our attention?
www.womensenews.org...

emphises mine

Women news could hardly be biased.So why is the media?

Why dont people hear about what the facts are,if its not a conspiracy.

Why are we conditioned to believe otherwise?

I have my daughter back with me for the first time in nine years, went through exactly the same things you described, got shafted at every turn by a system that's designed to exploit the non-custodial parent and absolve the custodial parent of any and all responsibilities. I feel your pain.

She can, and probably already has, taken everything you ever had but she can never change the fact that you will ALWAYS be their father. Remember that, there will be a time when your kids have the freedom of choice.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
I have my daughter back with me for the first time in nine years

excellent

went through exactly the same things you described, got shafted at every turn by a system that's designed to exploit the non-custodial parent and absolve the custodial parent of any and all responsibilities.

concise to the fact of what happens, which in 90% of the time it is to the male.What i`m implying with this thread is that if it happened 50% to women it would be wrong also,though my hunch is something would then be done about it.

i`m trying to establish
(a)that a conspiracy exists
(b)how many males and females are willing to express it exists
(c)those that dont,need to know
(d)why (i have a theory that most will not agree)

I feel your pain.

She can, and probably already has, taken everything you ever had but she can never change the fact that you will ALWAYS be their father. Remember that, there will be a time when your kids have the freedom of choice.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.Which for the past 14 years i have gradually had to come to gripes with precisely that.

Originally posted by gps777
Fathers as dead beat dads in after divorce.That very word is offensive knowing full well what happens to fathers who divorce be it their decision or their wifes

Who cares if its offensive? If a person is a 'dead beat dad', who doesn't live up to his legal obligations of the divorce proceedings, then the label fits.

and the laws surrounding it cause and are unevenly balanced in favor of the female through assets and custody of the children.

Que sera sera. Men in almost every western society make more money than women, even in the same job, so it makes sense that, after a divorce, that the men have the children removed from them, freeing them to work as much as possible, and then that they are hit up for the money to support the mother and children.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Que sera sera. Men in almost every western society make more money than women, even in the same job, so it makes sense that, after a divorce, that the men have the children removed from them, freeing them to work as much as possible, and then that they are hit up for the money to support the mother and children.

That is a very sad perspective.

I knew a guy who was divorced, got joint custody, wife made the same as him, but he still paid child support - even when he had the kids.

Divorce is too appealing to women today and the amount of child support all too often is more than the real expenses needed to raise the child.

I think one of the main contributors to divorce is the over-dose of equal rights for rights for women. Now before you get upset, I am for equal rights for women, but I am talking about their place in a family.

You cannot have 2 kings in one castle. You got to have one at the top. However, because the TV shows women in charge of the husband, wifes in real life are trying to do the same. For women to expect men to voluntarily take second place is unrealistic.

So today you have arguments that cannot be resolved because both the husband and wife cannot agree because they are both equal.

Gods plan was for the husband to be the head. I see that this works now.

Of course the husband should always listen to what the wife has to say, but there should be only one to call the final shot.

I have many friends from India. The women there are number 2 in the chain of command. Guess what, it works. I know many hindu and muslim women who are very happy in their marriage - it obviously works - their divorce rate is almost unheard of. I know some might say there is lot of abuse in these relationships, but after talking to many who live there, they say it is not as bad as the media portrays.

This does concern me, because I may be headed down that road soon - and I am scared to death of it. I know first hand the problems with having a depressed wife with zero self esteem. They want help from those who won't give it, but don't want help from those who offer it. Its a catch 22 that can only be fixed by one with the illness.

Another note - about 1/4 of homeless men in the US are the result of a divorce.

Go figure.

I got a divorce a few years ago [I live in the US] when I found out my wife was cheating on me with my best friend [some friend huh?]. We have a child together and there were rumors within her family that she was using drugs. I popped her with a surprise drug test and they found traces of cocain and crystal meth in her system. I was also tested, but was clean. She had not job, I had a degree in computer science and a career. I moved and bought my first home, all she owned was the things I had bought during the marrage. She never had a job the entire time we were together. When I went to court not only did she get custody but they raised my child support payments [I was already paying it even though we weren't divorced yet]. The sad thing is, she was living with this guy who was supposedly supplying her with drugs and they still didn't seem to care. Basically, if you are a male it's an uphill battle when it comes to divorce. It takes rare circumstance and, more importantly, lots of money to make a positive outcome. The bias shown in our courts toward fathers sickens me to no end. I am, IMO, a great father. I can only hope the whole courtroom experience shook her up enough to act right.

But hey, like the saying goes: "It's cheaper to keep 'er" :-)

Originally posted by godservant

Originally posted by Nygdan
Que sera sera. Men in almost every western society make more money than women, even in the same job, so it makes sense that, after a divorce, that the men have the children removed from them, freeing them to work as much as possible, and then that they are hit up for the money to support the mother and children.

That is a very sad perspective.

Men insitutionally make more money than women. The reason why women get custody of the kids and the man has to pay is because in the old families of the 'golden age', thats basically how the family worked, the mother stayed at home, ran the house, and raised the kids, while the father went to work and 'brought home the bacon'. That's what divorce laws are recognizing, the traditional nuclear family and its set-up.

I think one of the main contributors to divorce is the over-dose of equal rights for rights for women.

By the above reasoning, its actually the history of unequal treatment of women that is the reason why in divorce the man still has to support her, because in the marriage itself he had to and women were culturally and socially kept 'in the home'. If that hadn't been the traditional case, and both sexes were more or less equal through history, then when we reached the modern age and the high divorce rates, it'd be going 50/50.

together. When I went to court not only did she get custody but they raised my child support payments [I was already paying it even though we weren't divorced yet].

The court will determine the payments based on what you can pay. What did the judge say about her using drugs?

Well, she subjected herself to some urine tests a few weeks before court and tested clean. The original test was a hair follical test, which are rather expensive and I had to pay for it. At any rate, the urine tests were clean and she said she would never do it again so nothing else was said. Of course the court set up how much I should pay but according to my attorney, it was higher because she didn't have a job. She was already living off this guy, collecting welfare and an additional $550 a month in SSI checks [my daughter has Downs Syndrome]. It just struck me as odd that with everything I had going for me that none of it was taken into consideration. I mean, a few urine tests and an "I'm sorry, I screwed up" and she's off the hook with more money in her pocket.

Wow, this is a really eye opening thread. Gps777 I'm giving you a :

You have voted gps777 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I've never been married myself, but I will be in the near future. All I can say is you better be damn well sure about the woman you're going to marry.

Peace

I’m all for total joint custody or awarding custody of the children to where THEY’d be better off. I’m for the equality of divorce. But the original article paints a picture that is misleading.

The author of this article, David Popenoe, has an agenda. A conservative, right-wing, religious agenda.

The Marriage Movement

How has the right’s “marriage movement” become so prominent in the welfare reauthorization debate? Right wing foundations conceptualized, supported, sustained, and shaped the debate over marriage during the past ten years. David Popenoe, a seasoned veteran of the movement, discusses the pivotal role of conservative foundations in an article titled “New Day Dawning?: In the struggle over the family, foundations made the difference,” in the March/April 2002 issue of Philanthropy magazine, a bimonthly publication of the Philanthropy Roundtable, a consortium of conservative foundations.

Not only that, where is he getting his information? There is no indication about where he got his ‘facts’. I suspect his statistics, and your interpretation of them, might be somewhat skewed. For example, from your first source:

Divorce Myth 10: It is usually men who initiate divorce proceedings.

Fact: Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women. One recent study found that many of the reasons for this have to do with the nature of our divorce laws. For example, in most states women have a good chance of receiving custody of their children. Because women more strongly want to keep their children with them, in states where there is a presumption of shared custody with the husband the percentage of women who initiate divorces is much lower. Also, the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be "badly behaved." Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity.

Perhaps women initiate 2/3 of divorces. Do you suggest a woman stay in a marriage and subject their children to a man who is alcoholic and perhaps violent? Should she just ignore his affairs?

In this case, he’s not going to initiate a divorce when he’s got a wife taking care of him, his kids and his home, while he goes out with other women.

Sure. Plenty of men get screwed in divorce, but so do women. Think about how easily we gloss over the matter that men make more money than women. Talk about inequality... Talk about a conspiracy.

Fathers do get screwed, I'm not denying that, but that fact needs to be balanced with the fact that mothers get screwed, too, and many times the father gets screwed because he's acted in such a way that they lose respect and trust. Not always, I know. But the information you've presented is unbalanced. You haven't presented the total picture.

Originally posted by godservant
I think one of the main contributors to divorce is the over-dose of equal rights for rights for women. Now before you get upset, I am for equal rights for women, but I am talking about their place in a family.

You cannot have 2 kings in one castle. You got to have one at the top. However, because the TV shows women in charge of the husband, wifes in real life are trying to do the same. For women to expect men to voluntarily take second place is unrealistic.
...
Gods plan was for the husband to be the head. I see that this works now.

Of course the husband should always listen to what the wife has to say, but there should be only one to call the final shot.

You obviously know nothing about an equal relationship and a respectful, equal marriage. Maybe you couldn't abide one, but they exist and they are wonderful. My marriage is such a marriage and my husband has no issues about needing to be 'the king of the castle' or the big man. He's secure in who he is and knows that it's effective that we both have equal strengths and sharing the decision-making is the smart thing to do. He actually respects me and my intelligence. Wierd, huh?

I know first hand the problems with having a depressed wife with zero self esteem.

I wonder why her self-esteem is so low! I can't imagine!

Originally posted by Nygdan

Men insitutionally make more money than women. The reason why women get custody of the kids and the man has to pay is because in the old families of the 'golden age', thats basically how the family worked, the mother stayed at home, ran the house, and raised the kids, while the father went to work and 'brought home the bacon'. That's what divorce laws are recognizing, the traditional nuclear family and its set-up.

I think one of the main contributors to divorce is the over-dose of equal rights for rights for women.

What crack are you type of folks smoking? can you name me a job, any job where a man is routinely paid more than a woman in todays world??? Any job you come up with i can give you VERY good reasons why. (i used to respect your opinon much, much more before this statement of pure ignorance)

I am in the military- and the women have MUCH lower standards in nearly EVERY area of it but they get exactly the same pay. WHY?????? there are hundreds of jobs where the woman is paid DISPROPORITONATELY more than the man for what she does.

during my divorce my attorney was a woman and was spounting the same caca. she said i should just give the other side what ever they wanted because women make less-blah, blah, blah. all the while milking me for over $200 an hour. She got canned with prejudice- why would i pay MY lawyer to argue the other side????? (and women divorce attorneys generally make more than men divorce attorneys- wonder why that is? might have something to do with females needing to turn up the heat in the house all the time too- are these the serpants that walked upright in Genisis? ) Of course without a lawyer i got raked over the coals by the other female divorce lawyer- but i managed to save the money i would have paid my useless, and treasonous, witch.


People i know say i should write down the events of my divorce because it would make a best selling novel. there is certainly a conspiracy going on when it comes to fathers rights. My ex purjured herself numerous times and when i postively proved she was lying - her lawyer chimmed in and said she overstated herself (one occurance saying i was Tim Mcveighs lil buddy of all things- overstatement my horse with long ears!!- bold faced lying) did anything ever happen to her ?- even a repremand by the judge? no way.

I was taken in for contempt of court when she said i was not paying our daughters (my youngest) medical bills- i am active duty military so all of my daughters bills are picked up by uncle sam--IF THEY ARE FILED RIGHT. since i don't have custody (rare for a father to get it)- i have no way of knowing when she gets treatment if not told and it actually falls on my ex to properly file them- guess what she did before my daughter was born??? She worked in billing at the hospital!!!!!!

Previously, i was widowed just one week after my oldest daughter was born and i had raised a new born as a single military dad- but the judge had trouble giving me vistation rights to the younger daugher i shared with the ex. He made a joke that i should have someone teach me how to change diapers. seems to me i had at least 7 years more experence than my ex-wife did!

for a while i figured all of my misery was due to the fact i got divorced in the same Santa Maria, CA court room Micheal Jackson did his circus show in not too long ago- but now i am hearing that it is pretty normal all over the Western world.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by launchpad]

[edit on 26-1-2006 by launchpad]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by godservant
I think one of the main contributors to divorce is the over-dose of equal rights for rights for women. Now before you get upset, I am for equal rights for women, but I am talking about their place in a family.

You cannot have 2 kings in one castle. You got to have one at the top. However, because the TV shows women in charge of the husband, wifes in real life are trying to do the same. For women to expect men to voluntarily take second place is unrealistic.
...
Gods plan was for the husband to be the head. I see that this works now.

Of course the husband should always listen to what the wife has to say, but there should be only one to call the final shot.

You obviously know nothing about an equal relationship and a respectful, equal marriage. Maybe you couldn't abide one, but they exist and they are wonderful. My marriage is such a marriage and my husband has no issues about needing to be 'the king of the castle' or the big man. He's secure in who he is and knows that it's effective that we both have equal strengths and sharing the decision-making is the smart thing to do. He actually respects me and my intelligence. Wierd, huh?

I know first hand the problems with having a depressed wife with zero self esteem.

I wonder why her self-esteem is so low! I can't imagine!

You're jumping conclusions - trust me, I do listen to my wife. In fact, we do just about everything her way. I can see when her ways are better than mine.

You wonder why she has a low self esteem? It began when her mother was murdered.

There are many husbands who abuse their authority, but my point above is that in many families, you need a final caller. Today, because both parties want equality, there is too often no resolve when neither party wants to submit.

Originally posted by godservant
You're jumping conclusions -

I didn't make any conclusions. I read your post.

You're all for equal rights except when it comes to equal 'placing' in the family. One person (the man) has to be at the top. Women take their cues from TV. The man should always call the final shot.

I got these things from your post. These antiquated ideas turn my stomach. They're untrue. Many truly equal marriages work just fine. The above is just an excuse to be the boss.

This does concern me, because I may be headed down that road soon - and I am scared to death of it. I know first hand the problems with having a depressed wife with zero self esteem. They want help from those who won't give it, but don't want help from those who offer it. Its a catch 22 that can only be fixed by one with the illness.

This sounds like you're thinking of getting a divorce because of your wife's illness... Did you not marry for better or worse?

I apologize. This is off-topic. I'll let you get back to the conspiracy against men.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This sounds like you're thinking of getting a divorce because of your wife's illness... Did you not marry for better or worse?

I apologize. This is off-topic. I'll let you get back to the conspiracy against men.

No, that is what she is thinking about.

Anyways, the reason I say what I did is because men and women both have their strengths and weaknesses, and when all of them are on the balance, they weight the same.

However, it is human nature (not male or female) to want to be at the top. With both men and women today thinking they don't have to listen, they end up arguing with no success. Folks can't argue today with someone one to break the tie. Or should I say MOST folks.

I am not saying that women are second to men, it is just that you can see how well it still woked with your grandparents.