I feel Tanks are no longer useful, but Russia's most advanced Tank

it depnds what u r thinking of the tandem chage the Javelin can penetrate 800mm of armor

Originally posted by urmomma158
it depnds what u r thinking of the tandem chage the Javelin can penetrate 800mm of armor

Sorry I don't understand your point.

Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by urmomma158
it depnds what u r thinking of the tandem chage the Javelin can penetrate 800mm of armor

Sorry I don't understand your point.

javelins can penetrate 800mm of armor and dont forget such weapons attack a tanks weak points just to anme a few. The whells and track area,the top,the area between the track and the turret. also DU rounds have no problem penetrating reactive armror of any type

Originally posted by urmomma158

Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by urmomma158
it depnds what u r thinking of the tandem chage the Javelin can penetrate 800mm of armor

Sorry I don't understand your point.

javelins can penetrate 800mm of armor and dont forget such weapons attack a tanks weak points just to anme a few. The whells and track area,the top,the area between the track and the turret. also DU rounds have no problem penetrating reactive armror of any type

In order for the Javelin to get through the ERA first its tandem charge has to be on the order of 600-800mm. If the total penetration is only 800mm their is insufficent left over penetration to cut through the main armor.

BTW APFSDS rounds are also effected by ERA. The combined action results in a loss of 100-200mm KE penetration from the APFSDS .

[edit on 14-3-2006 by psteel]

apparantly Kontakt stops the latest Nato 120 mm sabot rounds which are fired from 2km or above. The Russians now have Kaktus which is better.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
apparantly Kontakt stops the latest Nato 120 mm sabot rounds which are fired from 2km or above. The Russians now have Kaktus which is better.

do u ahve any links stating this and dont forget the top of the tank is always lightly armrored you can easily penetrate it there ant tank misssiles dont attack the strongest parts the weakest a tanks protection varies fromp place to place

the altest DU can beat ERA top attack munitions attack the top the ost vulnerable part www.defense-update.com... www.dogpile.com... -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/417/top

its one of the first 5 copy n paste intom the URl

[edit on 14-3-2006 by urmomma158]

Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by urmomma158

Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by urmomma158
it depnds what u r thinking of the tandem chage the Javelin can penetrate 800mm of armor

Sorry I don't understand your point.

javelins can penetrate 800mm of armor and dont forget such weapons attack a tanks weak points just to anme a few. The whells and track area,the top,the area between the track and the turret. also DU rounds have no problem penetrating reactive armror of any type

In order for the Javelin to get through the ERA first its tandem charge has to be on the order of 600-800mm. If the total penetration is only 800mm their is insufficent left over penetration to cut through the main armor.

BTW APFSDS rounds are also effected by ERA. The combined action results in a loss of 100-200mm KE penetration from the APFSDS .

[edit on 14-3-2006 by psteel]

modern DU rounds have very high levels of penetration 100-200 wont be a big deal especially when the DU round hits the weakest parts of the tank

armro protection of tanks members.tripod.com... javelin hits the weakest parts tathe javelin has high wrhead penetration thnk you very much and attacks the weakest parts attacking those parts gives u far better results . how tandem charges work-1 the tandem charge first uses its first charge to completely detonate the armor once its detonated the second warhead can easily punch through. javelin www.army-technology.com...
precursor for complete detonation of ER and main which is 800mmwww.designation-systems.net...

[edit on 14-3-2006 by urmomma158]

If the base armor on the tank prior to mounting the ERA is 900-1000mm vs HEAT warheads then it don't matter what the Tandem charge does, its not enough to penetrate. Top attack is a niffty concept as long as it works. Overflying target means additional problems in target discrimination prior to firing that will reduce hit probabilty and also leaves the missile vulnerable to electronic decoying.

While the APFSDS is impressive it overates some of the penetration. At combat range penetration of 800 is the norm and with 200mm reduction that means a base armor of 600mm is all thats needed. Thats 1990 M-1A1HA level. If the Russians have not already exceeded that level of protection, they soon will....and as was pointed out Kontakt 5 is being replaced by Kaktus which is better [not sure how]. Looks like better coverage which is the main stubbling block of most ERA, since they only achieve coverage levels of around 50%.

Originally posted by psteel
If the base armor on the tank prior to mounting the ERA is 900-1000mm vs HEAT warheads then it don't matter what the Tandem charge does, its not enough to penetrate. Top attack is a niffty concept as long as it works. Overflying target means additional problems in target discrimination prior to firing that will reduce hit probabilty and also leaves the missile vulnerable to electronic decoying.

While the APFSDS is impressive it overates some of the penetration. At combat range penetration of 800 is the norm and with 200mm reduction that means a base armor of 600mm is all thats needed. Thats 1990 M-1A1HA level. If the Russians have not already exceeded that level of protection, they soon will....and as was pointed out Kontakt 5 is being replaced by Kaktus which is better [not sure how]. Looks like better coverage which is the main stubbling block of most ERA, since they only achieve coverage levels of around 50%.

top attack munition shave been developed hence the the abrams XM 943 ammunition missiles are also getting skiled in this plus a good shot in the wheels will stop it moving. do u have any proof they're overrrated because the US's latest DU penetrator is calssified

Originally posted by urmomma158

Originally posted by psteel
If the base armor on the tank prior to mounting the ERA is 900-1000mm vs HEAT warheads then it don't matter what the Tandem charge does, its not enough to penetrate. Top attack is a niffty concept as long as it works. Overflying target means additional problems in target discrimination prior to firing that will reduce hit probabilty and also leaves the missile vulnerable to electronic decoying.

While the APFSDS is impressive it overates some of the penetration. At combat range penetration of 800 is the norm and with 200mm reduction that means a base armor of 600mm is all thats needed. Thats 1990 M-1A1HA level. If the Russians have not already exceeded that level of protection, they soon will....and as was pointed out Kontakt 5 is being replaced by Kaktus which is better [not sure how]. Looks like better coverage which is the main stubbling block of most ERA, since they only achieve coverage levels of around 50%.

top attack munition shave been developed hence the the abrams XM 943 ammunition missiles are also getting skiled in this plus a good shot in the wheels will stop it moving. do u have any proof they're overrrated because the US's latest DU penetrator is calssified

When the figures for the M-829A3 were derived the CW was that the new round could launch a projectile at > 1800m/s . While this in practice as sound assumption what was not known was the barrels ware was unacceptable and that round has been offically down rated to 1500-1600m/s muzzle velocity region. That will bring its penetration performance in line with German DM-53.

do u ahve any lins of this test besides i was talking of the E3 not the A 3www.globalsecurity.org...

The "Super T", or the T-95

Thermally isolated turbine-electric hybrid with dual air ducted/actively cooled exhaust for minimal thermal signature, driving multiple drive wheels with rolling "hook" threaders for auto track segment patching, riding on fully automatically stabilised hydraulic suspension (BMD-3 AIFV). Slim profile unmanned turret flanked by independently articulated Tunguska-M module. Make an effort to smooth out the rough edges, conceal the armament under powered body panels, slap some RAM on the armor, install a pair of 100kilo plasma generators, (no airflow problems) and it will be pretty darn difficult to first find, and then get close to such a stealthy bastard that packs a wallop, especially if the commander unit (3 man crew) controls a designated slave robot unit (crew space occupied by the "extra equipment"- BTR-RD Robot) equipped with auto launch/retrieave Schmel UAV.

Run it along with already existing "sweeper" BMPT-Tank Assistance Combat Vehicle and TOR SAM.

www.hudi2.republika.pl...

www.findarticles.com...

BMPT flushing out grenadiers and burning other light targets, Robot "Super Ts" with their super low profile hug the ground and under commander unit command punch armour located by the UAVs which simultaneously jam GPS signal (thus severely limiting use of long range ordinance), and upon tracking of enemy UAVs automatically designate them for targeting by any of the available Tunguska modules which continuously scan the area for air/missile attacks, all under mid/high altitude cover from TORs. One hell of a way to bring BMP-3s to the action, and they pack a byte all by them selves.

Tanks definitely have a future on the modern battlefield, the only question is which ones. Judging the fate of MBTs based on T-55s and T-72s with expired ammunition siting in the desert and facing modern MBTs, is similar to jugging the future of small arms on how the musket fared against a rifle.

Various Ts have already been mounted with twin 30s for air defense, AT-11 SNIPER engages both armor and helicopters, so roll all that together and you end with fighting unit that can defend it self from air attacks, repulse RPG attacks and do it's job of punching enemy armour all while maintaining tactical SA and not risking the crew by having the option of placing the robot unit in the line of fire, all in vehicle in the neighborhood of 30-40 tons that can do a wheelie.

Looking good.

Originally posted by iskander
The "Super T", or the T-95

Thermally isolated turbine-electric hybrid with dual air ducted/actively cooled exhaust for minimal thermal signature, driving multiple drive wheels with rolling "hook" threaders for auto track segment patching, riding on fully automatically stabilised hydraulic suspension (BMD-3 AIFV). Slim profile unmanned turret flanked by independently articulated Tunguska-M module. Make an effort to smooth out the rough edges, conceal the armament under powered body panels, slap some RAM on the armor, install a pair of 100kilo plasma generators, (no airflow problems) and it will be pretty darn difficult to first find, and then get close to such a stealthy bastard that packs a wallop, especially if the commander unit (3 man crew) controls a designated slave robot unit (crew space occupied by the "extra equipment"- BTR-RD Robot) equipped with auto launch/retrieave Schmel UAV.

Run it along with already existing "sweeper" BMPT-Tank Assistance Combat Vehicle and TOR SAM.

www.hudi2.republika.pl...

www.findarticles.com...

BMPT flushing out grenadiers and burning other light targets, Robot "Super Ts" with their super low profile hug the ground and under commander unit command punch armour located by the UAVs which simultaneously jam GPS signal (thus severely limiting use of long range ordinance), and upon tracking of enemy UAVs automatically designate them for targeting by any of the available Tunguska modules which continuously scan the area for air/missile attacks, all under mid/high altitude cover from TORs. One hell of a way to bring BMP-3s to the action, and they pack a byte all by them selves.

Tanks definitely have a future on the modern battlefield, the only question is which ones. Judging the fate of MBTs based on T-55s and T-72s with expired ammunition siting in the desert and facing modern MBTs, is similar to jugging the future of small arms on how the musket fared against a rifle.

Various Ts have already been mounted with twin 30s for air defense, AT-11 SNIPER engages both armor and helicopters, so roll all that together and you end with fighting unit that can defend it self from air attacks, repulse RPG attacks and do it's job of punching enemy armour all while maintaining tactical SA and not risking the crew by having the option of placing the robot unit in the line of fire, all in vehicle in the neighborhood of 30-40 tons that can do a wheelie.

Looking good.

can iu ask you a question abut armror prtection? about the M1A2,Challenger 2 ,Merkava,T 80/90/95 etc with advanced armor how effective would you say is Javelin against them

Originally posted by urmomma158
do u ahve any lins of this test besides i was talking of the E3 not the A 3www.globalsecurity.org...

designation E# means its experimental so M-829E3 is the experimental model of the production M-829A3...so they are the same rounds.

You did not mention the best NATO tanks, Leclerc Mk2, Leo 2A6 and his super expensive bro from Japan Type 90. All of which IMHO are superior to both Abrams and the Challenger. Leclerc Mk2 takes the crown of the best NATO classic MBT. Merkava Mk 4 is a whole other animal, and for urban/desert warfare is certainly the best RPG/ATGM protected tank out of the bunch. Abrams is the worst, having an exposed critical system which is defeated by a 12.7 round, shrap or a blast wave, cutting turret power and leaving the tank completely helpless against RPGs. A .50 Barrett sniper can disable Abrams and turn it into an sitting duck with a single shot. Gas turbine in the desert doesn't help this either.

Rafael Spike family are with out a doubt the most advanced faf atgm's. From great portability of the SR to amazing range of ER NTD system, day/night NLOS tracking, semi aeroballistic trajectory allows targeting of soft spots, back up fiber link, all around winner. IOt is 75K a pop, requires extensive training and professional operation, delicate in deployment, but it's a whole new generation of ATGMs.

Battle provin SACLOS AT-14 KORNET E still gets my vote for the perfect all around field buster. Cheap, more portable then it looks, solid 5k range, solid warhead, as Spike targeting and firing is done from prone, tough as everything Russians make.

I'm just skeptical of faf, crap (like ECM) happens, los beamriding is more then compensated by a solid warhead, but does make the crew venerable to suppression fire during leading, but again, it's cheap, it can be fired by a monkey and it takes down the frontal arc of anything with a turret.


And here is the Javelin at $100K a pop.

www.combatreform.com...

As to armour penetration, tandem RPG-29 "Vampir" burns through the frontal arc of T-80, T-90, and everything else with a turret, at a cost of $300 per rocket. 750mm after reactive blast is apparently enough, Javelins 600mm just doesn't cut it.

Iono bout you but I find the t-95 pretty interesting. Maybe that is the black eagle tank but yes you have to agree that their tank tech is possibly superior to the U.S.'s. They have a special technology already to disrupt lock on anti tank missiles, and the U.S. doesnt, but of course maybe the composite armor is much more effective than the Russian armor( watever armor they use).

oh and BTW, I dont think the lelerc is much of a tank, I think the best anti ATM tank would be the Russian t-95.


en.wikipedia.org...

not black eagle tank, thats just the base design.

www.fas.org...

cool anti ATM tech.

" The T-90 is equiped with the TShU-1-7 Shtora-1 optronic counter measures system which is designed to disrupt the laser target designation and rangefinders of incoming ATGM."

oh and BTW, I dont think the lelerc is much of a tank, I think the best anti ATM tank would be the Russian t-95.


en.wikipedia.org...

not black eagle tank, thats just the base design.

www.fas.org...

cool anti ATM tech.

" The T-90 is equiped with the TShU-1-7 Shtora-1 optronic counter measures system which is designed to disrupt the laser target designation and rangefinders of incoming ATGM."

oh and BTW, I dont think the lelerc is much of a tank, I think the best anti ATM tank would be the Russian t-95.


en.wikipedia.org...

not black eagle tank, thats just the base design.

www.fas.org...

cool anti ATM tech.

" The T-90 is equiped with the TShU-1-7 Shtora-1 optronic counter measures system which is designed to disrupt the laser target designation and rangefinders of incoming ATGM."

o yea forgot to mention. Iono if the t-95 is gonna have the jammer but if they used it once, they can use it again.