Nuclear War between Russia and US

steller


most of the ussr wardoctrim involved the use of bio for strategic targets and chem for tactical - the russians used bio weapons in WW2 on a number of occasions but it blew back at them and troops fell ill - hence they decided it wasn`t controllable enough for battlefield conditions

they wouldn`t wait around - as the usa reply is nuclear - but nukes go bang and that is about it - the russians wanted/ still would poison the entire country and kill everyone. They have at least 250 tons of weaponized anthrax ready for delivery.


and the US programme was based at Fort DEtrick (and at pine bluff) - it was closed down in the 60`s and the only man who knows anything about it is Dr bill patrick - who is still the only man who knows anything about bioweapons in the usa.


he is reported to have taken a small stoppered tube of anthrax (or more rather a inert substitue) into a high level meeting at the whitehouse


he asked had anyone ever seen anthrax? when the reply was NO he rolled the tube across tthe table.


it proved 2 things ; the reletive lack of secuirty at the whitehouse and that no one really knows anything about bio wepaons in teh usa.


oh and 2 defectors? there info is now 14 years out of date.


another piece: a reported convo between patrick and allibek - they had some dispercing powder and showed how quickly it disperces into the air - and how after less than 30 mins it would have reached the local city.


and no one would have a clue

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by rogue1
Well we do know the US program was stopped, alll there facilities were shut down in the 1960's. A bioweapons program IS NOT easy to hide.

But funding secret airplane development programs are easy to hide, right?

Well it seems to be as Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and other publications seem to have articles about secret aviation projects every couple of months. Just look at the rumours above the Aurora. So yes secret aircraft projects are hard to hide.
Also in regards to a bio warfare program it would soon become apparent as in the USSR, that all the top talent seemed to have disappeared.

The Russians in the 90's even sent people over to inspect the old americans sites and others, gues what they found nothing.

And this proves what exactly? They get to pick some sites and nothing is going on there. Admittedly my point is that i am not sure and that i do not believe that any nation on the face of the earth ( that had one and can afford one) would give up bio-war programs entirely.

These sites were picked by the then KGB, so the Soviets had an incompetent intelligence network now.
Hmm well because you refuse to believe it is ahrdly a reason

NOw, the Soviets were caught out with a massive program which rivalled their nuclear one,

Pffft. How can breeding germs rival the construction of thousands of nuclear warheads and platforms for them? It's this type of made up nonsense that leads me to believe you will say just about anything when you have made up your mind.

Once again shows how little you know, obviously you haven't read too much about it, if anything. I suggest you use your favourite tool Google and search for " Biopreparat ". Go on enlighten yourself, you always say you're ignorant, well he's a chance to make you a little less so.

the signs were everywhere from unexplinaed Anthrax outbreaks to an island in the Aral Sea completely off limits.

And so they had a bio-war program employing tens of thousands of people.... They had tens of thousand working on particle beams and lasers as well. Yawn*

Gee so did they on their nuclear weapons, your point being what ? The thing you have completely missed ( how surprising ) is the extent of the facilities, there were huge top secret complexes throughout the Soviet Union. The KGB even had a major program to collect samples of deadly disease outbreaks from around the world.

The Americans ent there inspectors to some of these places and it bacame apparent from the beginning that they were massive bioweapons complexes, despite Soviet denials. guess what the Americans were right and the Russians eventually acknowleged it.

And the Russians did not lie about anything else? Why would anyone have trusted them this time?

Well thanks for agreeing with what I say yet again

No such evidence has ever been found, or are you saying in the face of everything you claim that the Soviets were completely inept in trying to conduct their secret program

Secret program? You apparently have no idea what a secret program looks like if you think the USSR would want to keep secret something that EVERYONE who could manage were doing at the time. You keep secret programs that have no rival programs mabye but to try keep very secret something that everyone suspects/knows you MUST have somewhere is STUPID.

Erm, is this a rant for the sake of ranting The fact is the USSR did want to keep it secret, which can easily be seen from the implementation of their program. No one else was investing nearly the effort anywhere - where is your evidence for all these other programs, which other countries supposedly had ? Let me guess you can't find any - gee surprising.

You talk about facts etc all the time except you never seem to adhere to them. If a fact disputes what you say, then " oh well how do we really know ", incredibly weak resposnse

I talk about facts and you never bother disputing them beside these weak pointless attempts. I suggested that there is still anti-bio war programs active in most countries and that under such programs ( where funds are available) it would be easy to do research into offensive programs as well if people cared to do so. It is incredibly naive to imagine that the US government would willing give up research into this area and i sometimes wonder why your even taking part in discussion on ATS if you will believe only what suits you at the time.

I wasn't aware the US had built facilities capable of producing 20 tonnes of Anthrax a year or 20 tonnes of Pox. By all means enlighten me, where are these offensive facilities ? once again as usual you have no proof This is getting really old.

Now i can not say the US still has a active bio war program but i have also not done any research just yet. My question is why any government would give it up having shown that it is willing to use such materials on enemy forces in the past. If your willing to use it at least once you can forever in the future use it as another way to blackmail other nations.

Gee, you haven't done any research, yet you still BS about things which you admit yourself you know nothing about Please.

Why would you make arguments contrary to what your logic should dictate to your based on past experience? Do you hate me so much that you will go with anything , however illogical, just to take a stab at maligning my credibility on the forum?

I couldn't care less about your credibility, as far as I'm concerned you don't have that much. It seems by the above typical rant that you have acceptance issues or a low self esteem - there is something which doesn't seem quite right.

PS. Stop wasting my time and others, you are fast getting a reputation for throwing tantrums, when you are shown to be wrong - which ;ate;y is most of the time.

[edit on 2-4-2006 by rogue1]

Originally posted by Aztecatl
The russians would of course first do an enormous single atmospheric EMP attack over the central USA, and then launch half of everything they have, while the USA is down. Blue star.

American military systems are hardened against EMP, it would barely have an effect on them.

On a side note, suspiciously many asian countries have designed new cities in the middle of nowhere, and moved/planned moving of their capitals to the same locations. Seoul, South Korea has been moved. And some country like Burma/something, has moved its capital into the middle of the jungle. And it has been HARDENED and totally militarized! all of these sit on top of newly constructed MASSIVE nuclear shelters for the entire populations... I'm worried at least. And Bush is giving more nukes to India... well, setting up some more strife for the coming decades are we?

You should be worried .... about your sanity. I haven't read so much BS in quite some time. Where exactly have they moved Seoul ? HAHAHA.

Originally posted by rogue1

American military systems are hardened against EMP, it would barely have an effect on them.






Things are not always what they should be

US seen vulnerable to space 'pulse' attack

US vulnerable to EMP attack

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Russian Boy]

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Russian Boy]

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Russian Boy]

am I totally off the ball here, or could the massive EMP waves that are caused by extra-atmospheric nuclear blasts, be an effect of the blast hitting the ionosphere on its way down, and being multiplied as an effect, before being sent to the earths surface? Thus functioning like the HAARP project?

like having one drop of water hitting a mosquito net full of water drops, and knocking them off all at once?

[edit on 2/4/2006 by Aztecatl]



Rogue1: Yeongi County in South Chungcheong Province.

[edit on 2/4/2006 by Aztecatl]

[edit on 2/4/2006 by Aztecatl]

Originally posted by rogue1

Well it seems to be as Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and other publications seem to have articles about secret aviation projects every couple of months. Just look at the rumours above the Aurora. So yes secret aircraft projects are hard to hide.

Planes are cool ; bio war experiments are not. People don't care.

Also in regards to a bio warfare program it would soon become apparent as in the USSR, that all the top talent seemed to have disappeared.

CNN/BBC would have just snapped up the story, right? Do you really think they need the best in the field and that they would recruit them if that would mean exposing the whole program? You think such things are not considered?

These sites were picked by the then KGB, so the Soviets had an incompetent intelligence network now.
Hmm well because you refuse to believe it is ahrdly a reason

No i am saying that just like the American investigators looking at alleged particle beam installations the KGB were only going to locations that where shut down and cleared out.

Once again shows how little you know, obviously you haven't read too much about it, if anything. I suggest you use your favourite tool Google and search for " Biopreparat ". Go on enlighten yourself, you always say you're ignorant, well he's a chance to make you a little less so.

The scale of industry you need for the Bio war programs are simply small compared to anything nuclear and ABM related and if you don't understand that simple reality no amount of googling will help me make you understand.

Gee so did they on their nuclear weapons, your point being what ? The thing you have completely missed ( how surprising

) is the extent of the facilities, there were huge top secret complexes throughout the Soviet Union. The KGB even had a major program to collect samples of deadly disease outbreaks from around the world.

It's still small scale compared to the infrastructure required for the production of everything missile and nuclear related. How many fast breeding nuclear reactors did they build to produce Biological weapons with? Why would you want to argue this point considering how obvious the economies related to both was/is?

Well thanks for agreeing with what I say yet again

Massive is massive but i guess then i would call ICBM and fissile material production facilities super-duper massive? Get the point?

Erm, is this a rant for the sake of ranting

The fact is the USSR did want to keep it secret, which can easily be seen from the implementation of their program.

Which is logical considering that everyone knows everyone else has such a program in some form or another. The basis of any secret is that others must not suspect you of knowing or doing something related to the area of that suspicion. The moment others suspect you they will eventually figure it out given some resources and patience.

No one else was investing nearly the effort anywhere - where is your evidence for all these other programs, which other countries supposedly had ? Let me guess you can't find any - gee surprising.

I have not looked; it's just obvious. It's cheap and it's a great blackmail weapon that can be dispersed by even singular agents. There is nothing cheaper than Bio war if your into strategic terrorism.

I wasn't aware the US had built facilities capable of producing 20 tonnes of Anthrax a year or 20 tonnes of Pox. By all means enlighten me, where are these offensive facilities ? once again as usual you have no proof

This is getting really old.

I agree that this is getting quite old. Who said anything about 20 tonnes of Anthrax? The idea is to keep the research going and to have just enough to serve as strategic blackmail. The Soviet Union clearly prepared enough to go well beyond blackmail but that is not required for most nations with less capacity and means to deploy it.

Gee, you haven't done any research, yet you still BS about things which you admit yourself you know nothing about

Please.

Well if you had to research how to think logically then i am sorry but it came quite naturally to me. Logic is logic and you hardly need elaborate proof for deductive reasoning once a few simple well known facts are in evidence.
It is always funny to see you dispute other peoples facts with such little evidence required towards the effort but that you demand such great volumes when yours are.

I couldn't care less about your credibility, as far as I'm concerned you don't have that much.

Well at least we can agree on not thinking each other credible.

It seems by the above typical rant that you have acceptance issues or a low self esteem - there is something which doesn't seem quite right.

Well i don't want to waste research time on people who can not be swayed by any form of evidence or facts anyways. Since those does not help i guess i will employ logic even if that is just about as ineffective as facts/evidence or figures of any nature.

PS. Stop wasting my time and others, you are fast getting a reputation for throwing tantrums, when you are shown to be wrong - which ;ate;y is most of the time.

Well your free to post links on all those things i am supposedly wrong about . I tend to own up to the few obvious mistakes i make and your say so does not make me wrong however much faith you have invested in that kind of logic. Now i likewise request that you stop wasting my time as you almost never contribute anything but sarcasm and half backed unsupported claims.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by rogue1

Well it seems to be as Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and other publications seem to have articles about secret aviation projects every couple of months. Just look at the rumours above the Aurora. So yes secret aircraft projects are hard to hide.

Planes are cool ; bio war experiments are not. People don't care.

So what was your point to begin with

Also in regards to a bio warfare program it would soon become apparent as in the USSR, that all the top talent seemed to have disappeared.

CNN/BBC would have just snapped up the story, right? Do you really think they need the best in the field and that they would recruit them if that would mean exposing the whole program? You think such things are not considered?

Well you obviously don't understand the expertise needed to weaponsie deseases and to create new strains. As you hvae already admitted you hvaen't even bothered reading anything abuot it.

These sites were picked by the then KGB, so the Soviets had an incompetent intelligence network now.
Hmm well because you refuse to believe it is ahrdly a reason

No i am saying that just like the American investigators looking at alleged particle beam installations the KGB were only going to locations that where shut down and cleared out.

Oh yes and when did the US investigators go to alleged particle beam facilities ? I don't apreciate you making things up, to try and prove something, neither will the other members.
What's also funny about this statement is that you were screaming from the rooftops that the Soviets were investing in particle beam research because the DIA's Soviet Military Power reports said so. Yet another countradicion of yours laid bare.

Once again shows how little you know, obviously you haven't read too much about it, if anything. I suggest you use your favourite tool Google and search for " Biopreparat ". Go on enlighten yourself, you always say you're ignorant, well he's a chance to make you a little less so.

The scale of industry you need for the Bio war programs are simply small compared to anything nuclear and ABM related and if you don't understand that simple reality no amount of googling will help me make you understand.

Oh right , the expert speaks again LOL. Kind of an interesting statement as you admit you know nothing of the program the Soviets had, which they admit themelves was 2nd only to their nuclear weapons. But hey, if Mr know it all says it isn't so then it must be true
BTW. You google heaps of crap to support your bizarre claims, yet confronted with compelling information you don't even touch it - obviously because you're scared of being wrong again. Don't worry everyone else knows your wrong sot there is no shame now in googling the facts for yourself.

Gee so did they on their nuclear weapons, your point being what ? The thing you have completely missed ( how surprising

) is the extent of the facilities, there were huge top secret complexes throughout the Soviet Union. The KGB even had a major program to collect samples of deadly disease outbreaks from around the world.

It's still small scale compared to the infrastructure required for the production of everything missile and nuclear related. How many fast breeding nuclear reactors did they build to produce Biological weapons with? Why would you want to argue this point considering how obvious the economies related to both was/is?

Erm you don't use reactors to produce BW agents Their production facilties were as big as any nuclear reactor adn probably bigger by floor space. You have said many times you know nothing about the program, so how can you possibly commetn at all with any authority - just laughable

A large number of scientists and technicians worked on several BW programs in the former Soviet Union:

o Biopreparat employed some 40,000 people, of whom about 9,000 were scientists and engineers;
o The 15th Directorate of the Ministry of Defense had about 15,000 employees at the five military microbiological institutes under MOD control;
o The Ministry of Agriculture had about 10,000 scientists working on development and production of anti-crop and anti-livestock weapons;
o Several institutes of the Soviet Academy of Sciences employed hundreds of BW scientists;
o Other scientists worked on biological weapons for the Anti-Plague Institutes of the Soviet Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Public Culture, and other state institutions; and
o The KGB had its own BW research program, which developed agents for assassination under the codename Flayta ("flute").

Thus, a total of about 60,000 to 70,000 people were working on BW activities. Although Ph.D.-level scientists were in the minority, technicians acquired sensitive knowledge about virulent strains or the design of special bomblets employed for the dissemination of biological agents.

www.ceip.org...

Well thanks for agreeing with what I say yet again

Massive is massive but i guess then i would call ICBM and fissile material production facilities super-duper massive? Get the point?

No, you make a stupid argument. typical response from you though when you're clinging to straws.

Erm, is this a rant for the sake of ranting

The fact is the USSR did want to keep it secret, which can easily be seen from the implementation of their program.

Which is logical considering that everyone knows everyone else has such a program in some form or another. The basis of any secret is that others must not suspect you of knowing or doing something related to the area of that suspicion. The moment others suspect you they will eventually figure it out given some resources and patience.

Once again, where is the evidence of htese offensive prgrams in other countries ? Where are their production facilties and research instiutions etc ? Where is your credibility ?

No one else was investing nearly the effort anywhere - where is your evidence for all these other programs, which other countries supposedly had ? Let me guess you can't find any - gee surprising.

I have not looked; it's just obvious. It's cheap and it's a great blackmail weapon that can be dispersed by even singular agents. There is nothing cheaper than Bio war if your into strategic terrorism.

Erm right. So you have no idea about what you're commenting on - how surprising. Keep your head int he sand it suits you.
BTW, since when did strategic terrorism come into it ? Once agin you try and avoid the information with a clumsy attempt. We are talking about OFFENSIVE BIOWEAPONS PROGRAMS. If we go by your statements then the nuclear programs of the USA and USSR are simply for strategic terrorism as well you seem to have trouble making a distinction.

I wasn't aware the US had built facilities capable of producing 20 tonnes of Anthrax a year or 20 tonnes of Pox. By all means enlighten me, where are these offensive facilities ? once again as usual you have no proof

This is getting really old.

I agree that this is getting quite old. Who said anything about 20 tonnes of Anthrax? The idea is to keep the research going and to have just enough to serve as strategic blackmail. The Soviet Union clearly prepared enough to go well beyond blackmail but that is not required for most nations with less capacity and means to deploy it.

IU said that is what the Soviets could produce at one facility in one year. Erm the idea was not to just keep the research going and to have just enough to serve as strategic blackmail. Do you read anything Why are you even bringing up other nations, we are talking about teh Soviet programs, another attempt to dodge the information, rather clumsy as well.

Gee, you haven't done any research, yet you still BS about things which you admit yourself you know nothing about

Please.

Well if you had to research how to think logically then i am sorry but it came quite naturally to me. Logic is logic and you hardly need elaborate proof for deductive reasoning once a few simple well known facts are in evidence.
It is always funny to see you dispute other peoples facts with such little evidence required towards the effort but that you demand such great volumes when yours are.

Your facts are easily proven wrong in most cases, I reasd your links and in alot of cases your links prove your statements wrong However here you veen refuse to look at a tiny bit of information - that is your logic. Being which is - I won't boither looking at facts therefore I can in all honesty say I am using logic because there is nothing to prove otherwise LOL. Sign of a person with limited intelligence at bets.

I tend to own up to the few obvious mistakes i make and your say so does not make me wrong however much faith you have invested in that kind of logic. Now i likewise request that you stop wasting my time as you almost never contribute anything but sarcasm and half backed unsupported claims.

Am I the only person who thinks this guy is a moron, surely not Talk about living in fantasy land.

Originally posted by Russian Boy

Things are not always what they should be

US seen vulnerable to space 'pulse' attack

US vulnerable to EMP attack

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Russian Boy]

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Russian Boy]

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Russian Boy]

Now this is absurd. I am sorry, but you are wrong. The US has had 60 years of experience in EMP, and nuclear weapons. It would be a streach to say that they are ignoring all that everyone knows to say that they have forgotten, but continue to field 5000 warheads that can hit anywhere in the world, but not allow for their efffects on our equipment...
EMP is not hard to shield against. Civillian issues are another story. You wll piss off a lot of New Yorkers, and that is a problem for everyone, but you will not disable the US military, and especially the nuclear forces of the US armed forces. I reject these above links as nonsense, and not even that articulate.



[edit on 2-4-2006 by Sandman11]

Russians/Soviets had much more of a Bio weapons program than the US. The head of the Russian program now works in Atlanta GA, as an authority in the US Center of disease control, CDC.
The US had enough of a nuclear advantage, or at least equality that they felt that eliminating the US program could be possible for political reasons. The Russian defector in Atlanta was shocked that the US would do this and noted that Russia had several generations of Bio weapons ahead of the US at the time of the 1973 agreement, along with tens of thousands of tons of Anthrax and nerve/bio "cocktails" which were suppose to be on ballistic warheads in the event of all out war.

Good post on Sov Bio weapons program;


www.bu.edu...
By DR. KEN ALIBEK (1)

Although the Soviet Union was a party to the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, it continued a high-intensity program to develop and produce biological weapons through at least the early 1990s. The size and scope of this program were enormous. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, over 60,000 people were involved in the research, development, and production of biological weapons. Hundreds of tons of anthrax weapon formulation (2) were stockpiled, along with dozens of tons of smallpox and plague. The total production capacity of all of the facilities involved was many hundreds of tons of various agents annually.

The Soviet Union's biological weapons program was established in the late 1920s. One of the key events which prompted the Soviets to explore biological weapons was the typhus epidemic that raged in Russia from 1918 to 1922. During this period, around 12 million persons contracted typhus; estimates of resultant deaths range from 2-10 million. The Soviets realized that if they could harness this destructive and disruptive force, they would create a very powerful weapon indeed.

Prior to World War II, the Soviets conducted research on a wide variety of agents. By the beginning of the war, the USSR was able to manufacture weapons using the agents not only for epidemic typhus, but also for tularemia (an incapacitating illness that can be fatal if not treated with antibiotics) and Q fever (which is not fatal but incapacitates its victims for an average of 8-16 days). It was also working on techniques for producing weapons using the agents for smallpox, plague, and anthrax.

World War II brought several advances for the Soviets, in the form of German industrial techniques and machinery for manufacturing large-scale biological reactors as well as other industrial equipment and valuable information from the Japanese biological weapons program.

After the war, the Soviet program continued to expand and develop. In many cases, it closely shadowed the US biological weapons program. While only a few agents had been weaponized before the war, after the war the number of different weaponized agents was increased to about ten. A number of weapons to affect crops and livestock was also developed. Research during this period also included developing and refining techniques and equipment for more efficient cultivation and concentration of the agents, and devising methods for producing more advanced weapons formulations for a number of agents.

During this post-war period, which lasted until the signing of the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, the Soviet Union formulated its doctrine regarding the production and use of biological weapons. In the Soviets' definition, strategic weapons were those to be used on the deepest targets, i.e., the US and other distant countries; operational weapons were those intended for use on medium-range targets, nearer than the strategic targets but well behind the battlefront; and tactical weapons were those to be used at the battlefront. Biological weapons were excluded from use as tactical weapons, and were divided into strategic and operational types. Strategic biological agents were mostly lethal, such as smallpox, anthrax, and plague; operational agents were mostly incapacitating, such as tularemia, glanders, and Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis (VEE). For both types of weapons, use was envisioned on a massive scale, to cause huge numbers of casualties and extensive disruption of vital civilian and military activity.

The Soviets also established so-called mobilization capacities: facilities whose peacetime work was not biological weapons production, but which could rapidly begin weapons production if war was imminent.

It is important to note that, in the Soviets' view, the best biological agents were those for which there was no prevention and no cure. In cases where vaccines or treatment existed--such as plague, which can be treated with antibiotics--antibiotic-resistant or immunosuppressive variants were to be developed. This is in sharp contrast to the philosophy of the US program (terminated in 1969 by President Nixon's Executive Order), which stringently protected the safety of its biological weapons researchers by insisting that a vaccine or treatment be available for any agent studied.

After the Soviet Union became a party to the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, internal debate ensued about the fate of the existing biological weapons program. The end result was that the program was not dismantled, but further intensified. During the period 1972-1992, the focus of the program was expanded. In addition to continuing previous types of work (developing improved manufacturing and testing techniques and equipment; developing improved delivery means for existing weapons; and exploring other possible agents as weapons), new emphasis was placed on:

* conducting molecular biology and genetic engineering research in order to develop antibiotic-resistant and immunosuppressive strains and to create genetically combined strains of two or more viruses;

* studying peptides with psychogenic or neurogenic effects as possible weapons;

* transforming non-pathogenic microorganisms and opportunistic pathogens (3) into pathogenic microorganisms;

* testing all of the facilities considered part of the mobilization capacity to verify their readiness.

During this period, the Soviet program not only caught up with the US program (which was halted in 1969), but it became the most sophisticated biological weapons program in the world by far.

The Soviets understood that offensive biological work had to be conducted with especially strict secrecy since the USSR had signed the 1972 convention. In fact, the USSR's biological weapons program was even more secret than its nuclear weapons program. All research, development and manufacturing of biological weapons, as well as any related work, were classified as "top secret" and of "special importance." Not even the slightest indication that any activity was taking place in this area could be revealed. All work connected to biological weapons was conducted under the cover of civilian and defensive projects. Special cover stories were created for each facility, building and even piece of equipment involved in biological weapons work.

For any given facility, there were two cover stories, one of which was "open" and the other "secret." The "open" cover story was created for dissemination among the general population. The "secret" cover story was an allegedly true secret piece of information, although in fact it, too, was false. As a typical example of the cover stories used at production plants, consider the cover stories created for the Omutninsk production plant:

The "open" cover story was that this plant had been constructed and was operating as a plant for manufacturing biopesticides and fertilizers. The "secret" cover story was that the plant would be used for manufacturing vaccines, antibiotics and other medical and pharmaceutical preparations necessary for the army in wartime. The truth is that the Omutninsk facility was a reserve biological weapons production facility that could produce tularemia, plague, and glanders biological weapons in time of war.

Each plant had a group of specialists responsible for disinformation measures. For example, they developed special countermeasures to conceal their biological weapons activities from foreign engineering and technical intelligence services. All solid wastes--carcasses of experimental animals, solid nutrient media, inactivated samples of biological weapons, etc.--were destroyed. To mask liquid wastes that contained signs of biological weapons agents (e.g., heat-stable antigens), these substances were combined with liquid wastes from civil production. Special charcoal filters for capturing all traces of TNT (the explosive substance used in biological bomblets) were developed and installed to prevent the detection of these substances outside the facility.

A massive disinformation campaign was conducted after the accidental release of anthrax from a biological weapons facility in Sverdlovsk in 1979. Concealment measures included the destruction of medical records of the victims, as well as the construction of an elaborate cover story that attributed the anthrax epidemic to contaminated meat and that even involved the arrest of the peasant whose meat was supposedly the source of contamination. Although the West considered the incident suspicious, the cover story was largely believed until recently.

As the USSR weakened during the late 1980s and early 1990s, and as more and more details were revealed regarding its biological weapons program, the West put increasing pressure on the Soviets. In 1991, a series of trilateral inspections was conducted by the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. The weapons program still existed when these inspections took place; the Soviets covered up the evidence as best they could.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, in early 1992, Russian President Boris Yel'tsin signed a decree banning all biological weapons-related activity. Considerable downsizing in this area did indeed occur, and included destruction of the existing biological weapons stockpiles. However, there still remains doubt that Russia has completely dismantled the old Soviet program.

Some of the doubts in this regard can be illustrated by the example of the smallpox virus. After declaring smallpox eradicated in 1980, the World Health Organization (WHO) stipulated that only a few authorized laboratories could possess the smallpox virus. These authorized laboratories were eventually reduced to two: the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta and the Ivanovsky Institute for Viral Preparations in Moscow. However, in the late 1980s, I oversaw the development of the USSR's tactics to circumvent both this restriction and the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention. The general thrust of our research and concealment plans can be summarized as follows:

* Do everything in our power to have the USSR's repository for smallpox virus transferred from the Ivanovsky Institute, which was not involved in any biological weapons research, to the State Center for Virology and Biotechnology, Vektor, in Koltsovo, near Novosibirsk. In the late 1980s, Vektor was doing biological weapons research on smallpox virus; the repository transfer would provide a plausible cover story.

* Explore the genome of the smallpox virus as fully as possible, to facilitate genetic engineering operations with it and to enable an accurate comparison with related viruses. This research work was easily justified, as it also had a legitimate purpose. Since the WHO was planning to destroy the last remaining stores of smallpox virus, it was important to sequence the entire smallpox genome for future studies.

* Using this genetic analysis, identify viruses closely related to smallpox, possession of which was not restricted, that could be substituted for smallpox virus in the bulk of the experiments. Using this method to decrease the amount of research that involved smallpox virus, we could attain our research goals while minimizing the possibility of having our illegal work detected. The viruses used most often were vaccinia (used for smallpox vaccination), ectromelia (mousepox), and monkeypox.

* Perform genetic engineering work on these viruses, with the eventual aims of manipulating smallpox virulence factors and inserting genes of other viruses into smallpox to create chimera viruses. The purpose of creating chimera viruses was to design new organisms which would have a synergistic effect and/or evade current vaccines or treatments. One of the first chimera viruses planned involved the insertion of Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis (VEE) genes into smallpox. In the late 1980s, using the technique described above of substituting related viruses for smallpox, a chimera strain of ectromelia and VEE was created for initial testing. The tests indicated that this chimera strain simultaneously caused symptoms of both ectromelia and VEE in subject animals.

* Claim that the genetic engineering work we were doing, which involved inserting foreign genes into vaccinia virus, was for the purpose of developing new vaccines, especially for research using vaccinia virus. At the time, I was skeptical that this argument would be convincing to the international community. Although indeed new vaccines can be developed in this way, vaccinia is not ideal for vaccine development because of the adverse reactions it can elicit, and in fact there are many other agents that would be more useful than vaccinia for vaccine development. Furthermore, vaccinia is so genetically similar to smallpox that I felt it would be obvious that we were focusing on vaccinia specifically because we were using vaccinia as a smallpox model in our research.

Several pieces of information in the published literature suggest that Russia continues to follow the above-noted plans:

* The repository for the smallpox virus was officially transferred from the Ivanovsky Institute to Vektor in 1994.

* The genome of smallpox virus has been fully analyzed and compared to the genome of vaccinia.

* Extensive genetic engineering research has been conducted using vaccinia virus, ostensibly for vaccine development. The research has entailed insertion of genes from Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis virus and from Ebola virus into the vaccinia genome.

* Special research was done to find a spot in the vaccinia genome into which foreign genes could be inserted without disrupting viral virulence. Again, this research work was presented as essential for the development of new vaccines by inserting foreign genes into vaccinia. However, for human vaccines based on vaccinia virus, virulence would not be important (vaccinia is not virulent in humans, only in certain types of animals). On the other hand, if this research were being conducted for the eventual purpose of inserting foreign genes into smallpox for biological weapons purposes, preserving virulence would indeed be important.

This suggests that Russian scientists are continuing to carry out the research and concealment plans that were in place prior to my departure for the US in 1992. Of course, it is impossible to say with certainty whether this research is part of a continuing biological weapons program, for it generally has legitimate uses as well. However, it is important to bear in mind that the Soviet Union managed to hide its enormous biological weapons program from the West for decades, even after signing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention. I have provided here only a few examples of the lengths to which the Soviets went in order to conceal their biological weapons program. Although Western intelligence suspected during the 1970s and 1980s that the Soviets were conducting some work in this area, it was only after the defection of a Soviet biological weapons scientist in 1989 that the West began to understand the extent of the program.

It is thus critical that the international community continue to pursue the establishment of adequate verification measures under the convention, as well as measures that will increase the transparency of research programs in Russia and elsewhere.

Notes:
1 Before Dr. Alibek's departure for the US in 1992, he was the First Deputy Chief of Biopreparat, the civilian arm of the Soviet Union's biological weapons program. Dr. Alibek's research assistant, Jennifer Guernsey, participated in the preparation of this article.
2 Weapons formulation is the prepared agent, ready to be placed into spray tanks, bomblets or other munitions.
3 An opportunistic pathogen is an organism that is not normally pathogenic, but which can cause infection in unusual circumstances.

It is time to set the russians in the same light as the s*********s Both are evil and won't be happy unless they kill millions. There is no reason the russian government should stay alive especially that putin #ing scumbag!!!! I can't wait to hear he had his head cut off by some muslim because he did not give them enough nuclear material. russia will be nuked by the United State because they support a bunch of iranian c suckers. The United States hates israel casue they are nothing more than a bunch of whiny jew #s. The United States is sick and tired of towel head cocksuckers and will kill them all. Nuke all muslim cocksuckers to rid the world of worse than 'n-word' scum!!!!!

Another thread from absolutely nowhere! As if i don't have enough to do i have to be reminded of those few times where i didn't have the time&energy to continue.

Stellar

Thus in short, Nuclear war is winnable by Russia...not explained is the reason that the USA has fallen short of its Nuclear Weapons Program but we can talk about that policy later./quote]

One has to define exactly what is meant by "win".

If you mean that there will be more Russian citizens surviving longer than US citizens, perhaps, but if you mean life will be worth living afterwords in either country, no way. It's a loose-loose scenario and the Russians are intelligent enough to know that.

The one thing I find most odd is how US administration types are always suggesting paranoid scenarios of attacks by other countries when it is we that have been the aggressor around the world.

We, the United States, is the only country that has EVER used nuclear weapons against human populations.

It is we that are invading other countries around the world and doing what we want, don't like the president of Panama, no problem take him out, need oil? Go invade who has it (Iraq).

We've invaded and bombed hundreds of countries, we are the dangerous wild card.

Sorry guys Russia has the most bio weapons in the world and the most nuclear weapons in the world. Secondly their country is far larger and their nuke silos are far more spread out. If an all out nuclear/bio war took place there's no question at all that Russia would win. Both country's major population centers would be destroyed but Russia would at least have SOME remaining population centers whereas U.S. would have NONE. The U.S. would NOT EXIST. Russia WOULD. Case closed.

reply to post by Char2c35t


You are forgetting about China in this scenario - if the US and Russia neutralize each ohter, China will reign supreme, and China is an enemy of both the US and Russia. China would not allow a weak but 'still standing' Russia to repair itself to then become a threat to their existence - they would move to take what's left of Russia out.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
Sorry guys Russia has the most bio weapons in the world and the most nuclear weapons in the world. Secondly their country is far larger and their nuke silos are far more spread out. If an all out nuclear/bio war took place there's no question at all that Russia would win. Both country's major population centers would be destroyed but Russia would at least have SOME remaining population centers whereas U.S. would have NONE. The U.S. would NOT EXIST. Russia WOULD. Case closed.

Since when do 100 person villlages count as population centers. Only a complete idiot would think a nuclear war is winnable. Go and fanatasize somewhere else.

Originally posted by rogue1
Since when do 100 person villlages count as population centers. Only a complete idiot would think a nuclear war is winnable. Go and fanatasize somewhere else.

I don't know but nuclear wars are indeed wars that can and will be won by the country or faction that is best prepared to prosecute it while maintaining it's industrial base in good order. You can go back to the second world war where the belief reigned that 'bombers would always get trough' which served in great part as supposed impetus for Chamberlain to sell eastern Europe into renewed slavery. A million or more death certificates where prepared as that is the casualties that the home office were told to expect in the first weeks... As you may or may not know Britain were under attack for years and sustained only 70 thousand civilian deaths. I am not suggesting that countries could get away with the meager preparations that were made against bombers in 1939 but that casualties can be reduced to but a few percentage points of the population.

Sure 5% of 60 million is still three million people but has high body counts ever deterred imperialist before? I didn't think so .....

Stellar