Agnosticism

I will start with what I consider the defining aspect of agnosticism:

God is unknowable.

It is my understanding that such a statement implies not only the nature of god, but whether or not god exists as well. Further, as stated, it is a position of knowledge, rather than belief.

I'm certain there are agnostics out there who mean "I do not believe god is knowable". This thread is not directed at you, as yours is a statement of belief rather than knowledge. But for those who make such a statement as knowledge, I would ask:

If gods are unknowable, then how do you know they are unknowable? To express knowledge about gods (that they are unknowable) implicitly assumes an assertion that they do or they don't exist, which contradicts the assertion that their existence is unknowable.

Thoughts?

[edit on 21-1-2006 by spamandham]

"This is not a zen koan"... zen master: "ponder that one"

Nullification of existence, in acknowledging something's existence as a non-entity, is irrational.

^_^

Anyone who claimed knowledge about something should also state that they know themselves.

Any man who claims to know himself completely is but a fool, as he still breathes and cannot know the outcome of even his own life, nor if he is fated for anything.

As for myself, the only thing I know is that I know nothing... not even myself. After all, I surprise myself on occassion, and certainly surprise others.

Originally posted by spamandham
If gods are unknowable, then how do you know they are unknowable? To express knowledge about gods (that they are unknowable) implicitly assumes an assertion that they do or they don't exist, which contradicts the assertion that their existence is unknowable.

Its true, assuming god is unknowable is to assume that he/she exists. Quite a paradox.

This reminds me of the concept of infinity. We KNOW it exists...or do we? Yet we cannot really define it. What we come close to defining is our limits and the consequence of infinity on our lives, or rather, math. We see the effect of infinities yet we cannot fathom its potential or even define it properly. I cant peer thru a black hole or a singularity. Yet I know they exist.

Now god on the other hand doesnt seem to have any effect on our lives...atleast not mine. Do I assume he doesnt exist based on knowledge, when I dont even know the if the idea itself may be flawed? Wont I be cornering myself into a paradox?

The idea of God was created by an ignorant unscientific primitive race. I'll start fresh and expunge that idea outa my head. Hey no paradoxes this way.

I'm curious about your assumptions, spamandham.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Its true, assuming god is unknowable is to assume that he/she exists. Quite a paradox.

For the record, it could be an assumption gods don't exist as well, which would still be a paradox. In other words, agnosticism as it is typically defined is an incoherent position - a form of mysticism.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
I'm curious about your assumptions, spamandham.

There are as many definitions of "god" as there are people who have given thought to the idea. When you talk about the existence or nonexistence of gods, you are really referring to your own unique conception of gods.

These conceptions are almost universally vague and incoherent.

Originally posted by spamandham

These conceptions are almost universally vague and incoherent.

Agreed. Did you draw any conclusions based on this? Or do you feel that you're not in a position to do so? In which case you're binding yourself to paradoxes again. Advil might come in handy