Atheism vs. christianty

Orangetom,

I can genuinely respect your personal religious beliefs, as they are obviously the result of prolonged philosophical inquiry on your own part. Christianity, when one takes the time to look beyond its surface, is a beautiful and profound faith. My problems with the religion arise only when one makes the claim that it (or any other belief system) is an absolute, complete, and literal truth. I appreciate the thought that you have put into your faith, and I feel that in an ideal world, everybody would take the time to evaluate their own beliefs to this degree... this would lead, I suppose, to far greater understanding between members of varying faiths.

Orangetom, What do you mean by the above statement? I am not aware of Gnosticism being an effort to glorify man as it is an effort to Emulate Christ to achieve Pleroma, the true spiritual state of being?

While I recognize that Gnosticism is so drastically different from any other branch of Christianity because it never evolved out of the Catholic Church, and that most christians would NEVER, EVER attribute Gnosticism to Christianity because some of it's most core tennets would be offensive, I have this to say...

To Gnostics, Christ was the Spiritual Essence of Sophia, she of Wisdom, put here on earth to show us the manner in which to ascend past our mortal grievances of the flesh and become spiritual beings ourselves.

Christ is central to the Gnostic beliefs, just as it is to all other Christian beliefs.

This, in effect, makes Gnosticism a branch of Christianity. An older branch than Protestantism, Baptism, Mormonism, and Catholicism. Indeed, Gnosticism was formed prior to the formation of the Catholic church under Constantine.

This does, in effect, Make me a CHRISTIAN. For I believe in Christ, and I believe he was more than just a mere man... I believe he was the essence of true Wisdom on Earth. Others in history have followed many of his teachings. Mahatmas Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, and many others. Whether they called themselves Christian or Not, they lived in a fashion very similar to Christ... some closer to Christ than others.

Christianity does not "BELONG" to those Christians who attribute Christ to the Demiurgos. It does not "BELONG" to the Christians who believe in Hell, eternal punishment, or mortal Sin. It "BELONGS" to Christ, and any who believe upon him and what his life stood for.

Which I do.

So, you can call me many things... blasphemer, Heretic.. but I am Christian.... to my very core.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
My problems with the religion arise only when one makes the claim that it (or any other belief system) is an absolute, complete, and literal truth.

That is exactly my single biggest issue with religions in general. They intentionally confuse belief with knowledge, and try to make them interchangable. I mean really... considering that two people can read the same passages from the same book and get totally different interpitations from it, I can't see how anyone could have the absolute, uncorrupted truth.

I appreciate the thought that you have put into your faith, and I feel that in an ideal world, everybody would take the time to evaluate their own beliefs to this degree... this would lead, I suppose, to far greater understanding between members of varying faiths.

Quite right. Belief isn't true belief unless you really know why you believe it. The fact that so few Christians seem to be able to describe the reasoning and the whys behind their professed beliefs (fellow posters excepted, of course, heh ), is what leads me to hold the opinion that the majority, but certainly not all, of Christians are Christians by habit and association rather than by conviction and passion.

In Gnosticism or the Gnostic Religions Salvation is reasoned out .worked out..by the logic and reason of men. The RCC version is gnostic..it just happens to be out of the Hellinic school of Gnosticism verses the Judiac School of the Pharisees.

Intresting that you use terms like Pleroma..or fullness. I havent seen many of the Faith who even know what that word means..same with demiurgos.

Oh yes..I agree the Faith goes back before Constantine..in 325AD and his council of Nicea. Ironic that most who claim the Faith dont know this history either.

THe Christian religion or Faith is not reasoned out by men. It is known by the Faith of Christ. The new bibles will change this and say the Faith "in " Christ. Thus by the use of the Faith "in " Christ they make it man's faith in Christ. Men are to take on the Faith "of " Christ....of being preposition denoting posession...it is Christ's Faith being taken on ..not the faith of men. You will find this subtle substitution in the NIV versions verses the KJV in or about Galations Chapter 2.
This means that a substitution has taken place privily..subtily. Another Christ and another Jesus of Nazareth
Same thing with the woman caught in Adultery ..here we see the classic example of Gnosticism...or another word for this type of Gnosticism is Talmudism. THe Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery before Jesus The Christ for Remission of Sins. IN classic format most preachers teach the "ye who are without sin cast the first stone" lecture. What most preachers avoid...is that the pharisees claim to be keeping the Law of Moses and zealously too. Yet they brought a woman caught in adultery ..in the very act. They did not bring the man. Thus meaning clearly they were not keeping the Law of Moses but another law...a law reasoned out by men by logic and reason of men. The Law of Moses stated.."they shall be stoned" meaning two..not one. The pharisees had disobeyed the Law of Moses which they claimed to be keeping devoutly. What is not explained here by most preachers is that the pharisees had not only disobeyed God but they had in fact switched gods..not the God of Moses but another god were they obeying. THey had done by logic and reason..what the God of the Fathers had warned them not to do ..to do as the nations surrounding Israel were doing. This is a example of Gnosticism...reason and logic of men...when God is reasoned out.

The NIV is a Gnostic bible using Hellenic variations in key doctrinal areas. The reasoning of men. This is what you get when religion is reasoned out by men. When you do a study of Brook Foss Wescott and Fenton John Anthony Hort you find that they were very Catholic/Hellenic in thier beliefs.
The NIV Translators merely took Wescott and Horts Greek Translation further to accomodate modern Gnostic beliefs. They have passed this version the NIV on to protestants to bring them into the Gnostic fold. Many of them totally unawares.

The instructions of the Lord are to be faithful..not by logic and reason but by Faith...both Olde and New Testaments. We are to be of Faith believing not in logic and reason of men.
Logic and reason of men leads to the traditions of men..often without many even knowning of this history and where men began to deviate from the Word of God. Many ...many Christians today are doing exactly that..following the traditions of men by reason and logic...and they dont even know it as they have been doing this so long as were their parents. Precisely what the Hebrews of Olde Testament times were doing.

Yes ..the Gnosis...the Wisdom..Sopha. Very intresting that you use the female form in the usage of the word Sophia.. This is not done in the Bible.
It is however done in paganism.

I am very well aware that Gnosticism goes back a long ways in pedigree...it is not a new doctrine...you can find Gnosticism and the patterns of Gnosticism in the pagan religions..of olde. Gnosticism is much older and has roots further back than Christianity and not in the Law of Moses either...much further back...no doubt....pre flood.

The key in much understanding of this is that in the olde pagan religions which dominated much of this earth and its history of which we have today surviving records...is that in all these pagan religions ...people lived at a mostly substance level or lower...always. A few ..the royalty and priesthood lived reasonably well off the backs of others. A few had a little and the rest had almost nothing. This was standard through out most of the world ..even into the middle of the 1900s. Almost nothing changed in these areas. This is what always happens when men reason out God...for thier purposes. This is also the history of most nations.

I will also add..that Gnosticism did in fact evolve out of the Catholic Church and other areas too. There are Gnostics out here who are very anti Catholic. The Pharisees are Gnostic as is modern Judiasm.. Its just a matter of which Gnosticism do you want ..the Hellenic versions or the Non Hellenic versions. This struggle between theses two versions is still going on ..nothing changed. You just have a new gnostic religion arriving once again on the scene after a long abscence...Islam. You see how well the Islamics get along with the Jews or Rome dont you???
You are looking at one Gnostic group the Islamics who come up with the same type of resoning and logic in their fatwas in the name of their god as did the Chruch at Rome in its historical past..and even today..in secret.

I will tell you something else also..Crystal Sword...most of the wars have been one Gnostic group and thier ideologies ...fighting or coming into conflict with another Gnostic group. There is nothing new here.

I do not lable you a blashpemer or heritic..etc etc...I merely know the history of gnosticism and the fingerprint it has left among men..historically.

I cannot condem you ...for your beliefs..that is not my job or authority. Nor can I save you ..once again not my job or authority. I merely declare what I know historically.
As I have said..most Christians today are dumber than dirt about many things...and I include myself in this...even Christianity....much less a concept like Gnosticism. They havent a clue...and most never will.

Thanks for your post Crystal Sword.

Orangetom

Orangetom: You have effectively confused me. It seems as if you have attributed every religion to Gnosticism which does not fit into the narrow parameters of accepted christianity... are you treating Gnosticism as the new Paganism?

I am not seeing how Gnosticism is related to many other traditions, as it has a very specific context in what it discusses.

What is known of Gnosticism stems from the Nag Hammadi Library and Europe during the Dark Ages, though texts outside the Dead Sea Scrolls/Nag Hammadi Library are not reliable as they have been in the hands of those who have a biased view concerning the religion for ages. The opinions of such people crept into the texts over time, as the Nag Hammadi Library demonstrates.

I am unfamiliar with the men you speak of, so you will have to forgive me, I do not think though that they are relevant to actual gnosticism.

Islam isn't Gnostic, and neither are most religions such as Wicca and Druidism. There is a form of animism in Gnostic tradition, but it is reverential to the spiritual Pleroma... the Kingdom of the true God.

Gnosticism does not teach you to "INTERPRET GODS LAWS REASONABLY"... it teaches you to Interpret YOURSELF reasonably. It teaches that spiritual enlightenment is only capable if you work at it, and try to move past the material existence which is flawed. It believes strongly that humans CAN surprass their flawed behavior and become more than just what their design decreed.

Intresting the pattern in which you post.

Every religion into Gnosticism which does not fit into the narrow parameters of Christianity?? All religions are the same religion ..all can be fitted in. Spoken another way...Christianity needs to be broad..or broadened ..so all can fit in by reason ..logic..by our interpretation.??

Yes agree it is very specific..specifically broad.

As to the Nag Hammadi library and the dead sea scrolls....the dead sea scrolls were kept from the public for a long time while only certain texts were made public..until reacently to promote the gnostic versions. This was obvoious to me in several of the History Channel programs on the Dead Sea Scrolls. You can see this in many of the programs on this type of topic once you know the pattern...the wisdom of men. Anything to get believers off onto a new thing or concept ..including bible codes.
As to Nag Hammadi this is the text often quoted by new agers or gnostics to get the bible broadened to include much more than is known or declared.....much broader. The Mormons like the Nag Hammadi versions too. Yes it follows the gnostic broad pattern..I agree. Gospel of Thomas is another often quouted. I first saw the Nag Hammadi translations down at the Edgar Caycee Foundation down south of me in Virginia Beach. Same with the Gospel of Thomas. At the time I went there to find a copy of the translation of the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Also no problem with not knowing Brook Foss Wescott or Fenton John Anthony Hort. I did not know much about them either till a few years ago. Most who claim the name of Christ havent a clue either. Their preachers dont each them for good reason.

As to Islam not being Gnostic ..it's version is reasoned out by perfect logic according to Islam. It is perfectly reasonable to them..Just like the RCC in Rome. The ultimate reasoning and logic of men. This is the connection to the reasoning of men. Why is this?? ..because it is not a finished work...it must be finished by men.

Also one of the terms used by reasonable men is the True Religion. The Kingdom of the True God is a variation of this . Another term is the "Restoration of the True Brotherhood." Variations on a Gnostic theme.

I will remind you that Christianity is not a system where one interprets ones self reasonably. It is revealed to the believer..not reasoned out by men...by the self.
Also Christianity also declares that outside of the Lord Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins...there is no hope for men...none. Men cannot surpass thier flawed behavior..or gene structure..to become more than what their structure decreed..not in this body of flesh..never will happen. For humans to do this is works..and that if they can do this they are god..or demigods.
This is a system of works..which is paganism..which is Gnostic reasoning. Wise men ..wizards...sophists..or magi. Advancing by degrees in the wisdom of this world.
To the Christian spiritual enlightment is only possible through Gods divine revelation or as God gives the measure for His purposes...by His will.
Dont worry ..most who caim the name of Christ cannot put this together in a hundred years...nor will most of their preachers help them to understand this difference.

Thanks for your post Crystal Sword,
Orangetom

You appear to have contradicted yourself in your previous post... you state that there is no hope for man to reach enlightenment, but then you claim later in the paragraph that mankind can achieve enlightenment through God.

Am I incorrect in this contradiction?

Jesus Christ is the True Divine. If we are not to strive to spirituality through emulation of Christ and his teachings... then what exactly is the point of living? Are we born so that we might be forgiven of our imperfection? Original Sin is a trite, irritating concept better left to the Dark Ages.

I personally believe in mankind's spiritual countenance, and that Mankind was meant for better things than what we trudge through daily. If our maker was imperfect, making us imperfect, I do not see why perfection is an unworthy goal to strive for, even though it might never be attained.

I also am not willing to accept Original Sin, that I am damned forever unless I ask for God's help. It is presumptuous to think that a man who lives good, and does good for people... is not living a godly life, and thus must burn forever in Hell (Which is another concept I don't ascribe to).

Is this your point of view? That mankind is born into sin and we are doomed, incapable fo saving ourselves in any way but to ask for God's assistance? In that sense, we are all born to be God's slaves... we are required to worship or damned if we don't.

There are good people in this world, who do not agree with my beliefs... but whom I feel are deserving of some compassion and love in any afterlife that might exist.

Thanks for your quick reply.

There is not contradiction here. It is quite simple. The term enlightment is used in two different ways here. Or to put it another way...there are two different lights here being discussed. There is light being discussed here and then there is Light.
It is just that it becomes more and more obvious when you post, Crystal Sword , that you are operating on a different enlightment a different light from the one I am describing. THe Light of God is very different from your discription.

"Original sin is a trite, irritating concept better left to the Dark Ages."

Original sin is core Christain belief. You are demonstrating my point precisely here by your posting. Not Christian.

God's word does not say "I'm ok ...Your ok!!" We are all good people and deserve good things ..automatically like a default setting to play through.
THe Word does not talk about Mankinds spiritual countenance being a great and wonderful thing. You will find this in paganism, pantheism, et al.

Also it is not our maker making us imperfect...this too is a tendency of natural man ..to blame God for making us imperfect. To question God.

Crystal Sword...the doctrine I know is that men..deserve hell and damnation...me especially ..God would be totally just and rightious to send me to hell and damnation..I deserve nothing better. Man in his "best state..on his best day" is worthless. NO matter what he does or tries..man is worthless Before God.

You keep doing it over and over again ..Crystal Sword...Sometimes I am astonished by your postings but yet I shouldnt be.
Once again you post " I cant believe mankind is not capable of saving himself in any way. Sorry olde man..but that just is not Christian Doctrine....at all..no way. YOu see ..Crystal Sword....the Word declares that it is a "finished work". If it is finished...at the Cross..what difference does it make what mankind does???
When you say Mankind can save themselves..then it is not a finished work according to your system....Gosticism. Mans works can save himself. Back to works which is Gnosticism/paganism. Man will finish the work. Not so...sorry.

I undestand you are not willing to accept original sin. I understood that from your first postings to me. No problem here.

Crystal Sword...you and I are discussing two entirely different lights here..you discuss light and I discuss Light. Christians will know this immediately.

Thanks again for your post,
Orangetom

Ooooooookay....

I hope you do realize that up until the dark ages, Original Sin did not exist in Christian belief. Indeed, Original Sin was popularized MOST by the Puritans and other strict, literalist sects of Christianity.

Those who understand original sin as personal guilt and sin, rather than as sin in an analogous sense, are confronted with a yet graver difficulty, particularly if they conceive of sin as a matter of a person's soul as such, rather than of the ensouled body or enfleshed soul that is the person. Sin, they say, is an issue of the soul, but, if we inherit our bodies from our parents and our souls from God, then original sin, which is inherited with human nature from our parents, must be a matter of the body; or, if it is a matter of the soul, original sin must come from God. Martin Luther's ad hoc solution was: Do not listen to human wisdom, but to the holy word of the Bible. Logically this is argumentum ad auctoritatem fallacy combined with argumentum ad ignoramum.

Taken from Wikipedia on "Original Sin".

If Original Sin exists, then God purposely makes all of his children sinful, and does so intentionally. This conflicts with an "All-Loving God" concept professed by christians, not because "God loves the sinner, not the sin," But because God MAKES You sinful, and thus, needing his forgiveness, and thus, GOD REQUIRES YOUR LOVE.

You sound very much like a Lutheran, Orangetom, with your belief about Man's Wisdom, as in the above quote by Luther. "Do Not Listen to Man's Wisdom, but the Holy Word of the Bible"?

So, do not think... only do as you are told. Sorry, I don't believe that.

And I am Christian, unless you can find me a DICTIONARY DEFINITION that declares I am not.

Thanks again for your quick reply.

That is a very intresting interpretation about original sin not existing till the dark ages Wow!! First time Ive ever heard that one. Thanks for that interpretation.

I would suggest you find out what the line or lineage of the Puritans and other Christians was and from whence it originated. I do not believe it came from Rome.

Remember why Martin Luther would think this way. Luther came out of the Roman Church. He did not believe in works as a system having been very familiar with it from the Roman Church.

I would suggest to you Crystal Sword...that the lineage of Gods Church is not through Rome. You do however find records of Gods Church through Rome by the number of Gods Church's that Rome persecuted/killed. You can find this lineage in John Foxe's Book of Martyrs. This book shows the lineage and path..of Gods Church through the centurys..back to its beginings and it is not through Rome. These churchs existed before Martin Luther and before Rome.

I would suggest to you that the Puritans picked up on this because they didnt approve of English Catholicism ..also called Anglican. Anglican only meant that the Pope was now in London..not Rome.

As to the concept of a " all loving God." This is contradictory to the Word.

"Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated...even before they were born."

Here we have two brothers and twins at that. Yet God loved Jacob and He hated Esau. We find this in the Olde Testament and in the New Testament. This is not a all loving God...this is a Soverign God.

Crystal Sword..obvioiusly I do not believe in a all loving God. I believe in a Soverign God. This is what the Puritans believed in. This is what the issue in the English Civil War was over. Divine right of Kings. Could a King break the law...sin and be held accountable for this or was he Divine Right and not accountable to the law.

This Wikipedia definition is very strange to me..Crystal Sword. God requires our love...that is strange. The Soverignty I know ...it is the other way around ...we require His love and mercy....also called Grace. This is also called Soverign Grace.

I am not a Lutheran...though I have a Martin Luther Bible in Hoch Deutche..high German. My mother will read from it to me once in awhile.
I was not raised in Christainity as the bible was never taught in my family..Never.

As to not listening to mans wisdom..this is found in the bible..it could not possibly have been started by Martin Luther.
Paul or Saul of Tarsus gives us numerous warnings about this..as does places in the Olde Testament. Nothing new here...this most certainly did not start with Martin Luther.

As to being a Christain unless I can find you a dictionary definition that declares you are not. LOL LOL LOL...Crystal Sword...please think about what you are saying here. Think long and hard about this.

Any Christian..knows that for spiritual meaning ..the Believer goes to the Bible for this...not to Dictionarys of men. I can figure this out just by a study of etymology. Words and word understanding have changed so much just in the last hundred years. Many words do not mean the same as they did years ago. The Dictionarys have change to suit this "new" meaning.

Take a look at the modern definition of the word "whoredom" and then look at the bible meaning for it. Huge difference in this and dictionary meanings.


The meanings and understanding are through the Bible ..especially spiritual understanding.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by daedalas
thecrystalsword, your post does not make much sense to me. You dont like people who think? Is thinking anti-christian now?

I suppose it would make sense though, if the church is losing followers because people are thinking now and not just mindlessly and usquestionably worshiping anymore.

I can see it now, the pope declares thinking is devil worship and no more thinking unless you want to burn in hell.

Your not far off, Catholics are not allowed to accept ANY REVISED REVELATIONS hence being denied to read or hear modern day interpritations. Their website stated the revelations will never change and if anyone tells you otherwise you are being decieved. The revelations is the revelations and must remain untouched.

This attitude closes doors on people who obviously want to think for themselves. A modern translation is a good thing for our world today. The old revelations uses anagrames and symbology which are next to meaningless to us because they are not understood.

I should hope people do research for themselves without being CONTROLED told what they are and are not allowed to look at/read/hear about!

Love and peace

Here a little about me.

I was brought up in the belife if i was not a good little girl i would burn in hell. I had to confess my sins and go to church every sunday.

I was told god gave me a gift, then i was told I was evil because of my gift from god or I was being decieved by the devil etc.

I woundered why i had to confess my sins to a priest when i could CUT OUT THE MIDDLE MAN AND GO DIRECT!!

I woundered why God was so angry, and revengeful, causing destruction and death because we are not good enough and we have to pay for adam and eves sins. I woundered as a little girl what I had done that was so bad to get BLACK MARKS ON MY SOUL!! Which can only be removed during confession.

very sad really. It was DEPRESSING, i felt HELPLESS i never felt i'd be good enough to go to heaven.

Well now I KNOW different. I have been there and i am not dead, i am still here in a physical body. Obvously I am GOOD ENOUGH, WORTHY RIGHTOEUS! i HAVE SEEN MANY AN ANGEL.

Since I broke free from CONTROL, AND REPRESSION AND NEGATIVITY. I have seen and experienced the light. If what I was priviliged to have tasted as heaven where i went in life. I truly can not wait to pass over, words can not describe it only

LOVE LOVE AND LOVE and lots of it radiating love everywhere, it tore me apart to return, i cried the whole day!

I am not supreme or special in anyway, i have tremendous faith, it took me a short ride stright to the DIVINE. I learnt what is truly a false god and unfortunatly it is everywhere and there will be no peace on earth until we realise it and fizzel it out.

I no longer belong to a church or a religion. I am a vessel unto thyself.
Peace and love

[edit on 05012005 by Earth Angel]

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by raingirl

I don't believe in any god/gods and dont see why I should. Just because others feel the need or have be brought up to believe is neither here nor there. I have found no evidence past or present that implies the existence of deities to be true and also can't think of any reason why these dieties should exist. However, as I am open minded, if any evidence to the contrary emerges then I would believe accordingly. I also believe that there are higher intelligences out there somewhere but would not ascribe them god status but beings with a greater understanding of the way things are than ourselves.

So why do Christians believe? I have to admit that i find a life with no God very meaningless in comparison... I was also brought up in a christian household. So i consider myself a bad example in response to what you've said. But look around you: (1) there are intelligent people who believe, who came to believe, after concluding that they evidence points to it being true, and (2) there is more to believing than simply, *wanting* to believe. I know of a person who says he finds what God calls on you to do as a Christian annoying... he doesn't want to believe, but he can't help it - he just does.

Chrstians believe for a variety of different reasons, some believe because its ingrained in their life, some because they need to believe in something and some because they think thats its better to believe than not. I also come from a religious family, my father is catholic (non practising) and my mother is protestant (practising) and we were made go to church and sunday school for years until we could make up our own minds.
I could also reverse your statement 1) look around you there are a lot of intelligent people who DONT believe or did and now dont due to the conclusions that they have made. As I said I dont see the point or feel the need to believe in god/gods or to be in a religion, I see it as a limiting factor of Humanity like ethics and morals (which stems from religious practices). However I do see some good in its values.
If if wasn't for religion where would we be?


G

MORE OF US WOULD BE ALIVE!! If we weren't so busy having wars with GOD on our side or a holy war in the name of ALLUH! How many lives lost over the decades in Northan Ireland without fighting over who is right and wrong!!

Sorry but I feel strongly about death over religion. Humans are wired backwards. In stead of preserving life and seeing how presious and fragile we are

WE KILL EACH OTHER!

[edit on 05012005 by Earth Angel]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by riley
1) I really shouldn't be surprised that you absolved yourself the responsibility of throwing stones by blaming god.
2) But you just said you speak FOR god! Which is it?
3) Oh yes.. NOW I remember you. Persecuted guy.. I thought we established that you were NOT being persecuted and in fact only WANTED to be persecuted.. you even tried to make it real by provoking nasty reactions out of others by making biggoted statements about their beliefs. Is this about you wanting to qualify as 'meek' or 'chosen'? Do you want to inherit the earth?
4) "They told me off just because I was pelting rocks at them.. they said mean things. They should be punnished.. anyone got any rocks?!"
5) er.. you just called him a sinner. Sinner means immoral.. that is a judgement on his moral charactor [and anyone else who won't convert.] Whats your problem with buddhism? It basically follows Jesus' philosophies [specifically love and tolerence] anyway.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

Item One:
Whatever.
Item two:
I never said I speak for God, I am sharing with people who would never normally even pick up His Word in the first place. I mean you share YOUR opinion about atheism everywhere you tread in this arena, why should I not be allowed? Are you more special than me? More enlightened? I think not. It take discipline to believe in something, and committment. This is completely foriegn to you as you apparently believe in nothing, right? I mean if it bothers you that another has a faith that you lack then who is bigger the faithful or the faithless? It does not mean I speak for Him, that would necessitate that I was adding to it and I cannot.

Item three:
I won't address another thread in this one about YOUR assessment of what role YOU percieve me to play. Just because I didn't play by you and your friends rules and return to that thread, the jokes on you and your buddies.

Item four:
You need attention, I ask God give it to you...

Item five:
He IS a sinner, what part of "it is in the scriptures" don't you understand, oh all knowing one...

Your attacks are as laughable as you are pitiful. I'll pray that God sets you right soon, maybe a close call to jolt you awake to the reality that God is in control no matter how hard you deny your ignorance.....lol.

[edit on 3/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

I am glad you have your faith and belifes but I love the way in which you obviously belive YOU ARE RIGHT and so is your religion and its ways also.

I will say one thing: Love has NO CONDITION as love can not judge because judgeing is a NEGATIVE ACT.

My DIVINE LOVE, EMBRACES ME AS I AM, FOR I AM RIGHTOEOUS AND I SHINE BECUSE DIVINE LOVE HAS MADE ME SHINE! As more people SHINE and more people embrace life and love the sinners will FIZZEL OUT. As more are touched by LOVE, the light comes and then the world will wake up to its CONTROL AND CONDITIONS which cage the world up in NEGATIVITY!

AMEN!

Originally posted by mytym
I don't think God is too concerned with what you believe. All he wants is for each of us to be true to ourselves, and do what we ourselves feel to be the right thing. I think it is possible to worship the Devil and still be doing the right thing by God. Just my opinion.

Now that is interesting as many religions have tried to sell me the DEVIL in disguise as GOD!

Now i don't do RELIGION, I understand the real meaning behind FALSE GODS!

A revengeful God who can cause destruction, and angry God that must be obayed or else you will burn in hell! A god that is slow to anger! A God that will not accept you if you turn your back on him/don't repent for sins/don't belive in God/don't follow the RIGHT RELIGION (What ever that is, we could argue the toss for eternity) A God that judges you even thou you have free will!

This is the very FALSE GOD people are trying to sell me on my doorstep every Saturday! This is the FALSE GOD I was brought up to WORSHIP AND SERVE as a child/teenager!

THERE IS ONE MAJOUR THING MISSING FROM THIS GOD (See above descriptin)

LOVE

What God has no love? What God judges his creation as SINNERS just because adam and eve sinned.

Because some priests have forced themselves on little children, does this mean EVERY PRIEST is a sick peido? No of course not, why would God paint the rest of us with the same brush?

DIVINE LOVE, knows of no judgement, hatred, anger, revenge, destruction and condemnation.

These are acts of NEGATIVITY.........SATAN is very cleaver in his disguise as GOD

Sorry SATAN your BUSTED PAL!!

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Orange: You should also pick up the two books I mentioned, excellent literature with mind-expanding material.

OneGodJesus: I could respond to everything you have said... but I will instead tell you that your views are the reason people hate christians. You can take that opinion or you can leave it, but you aren't likely to help many people in your life if you feel that forcing your belief on them is the will of god.

The people who I have helped and the ones who have "converted" would disagree. My views are irrelevant in light of what the Word says Crystal. If you don't have that down and call yourself a "Christian" you deceive yourself. I have said before and will say it again, PEOPLE ARE LAZY AND DO NOT READ FOR THEMSELVES, BUT ONLY GO ON WHAT OTHERS SAY.

So do yourself a favor and use that "high intelligence" that almost everyone proclaims to have in these forums and read for yourself with an open mind and heart. You may just end up smarter in the process (oh my wouldn't that be a shame...

I fail to see "high intelligence" and an open mind from what you have preached to everyone here.

SATAN is your god of which i will have no part of!

DIVINE LOVE, LOVES: It does not hate or separate or judge. It knows
not of anger or revenge, wrath or destruction = DEATH. Saddly much is over RELIGION. or GOD IS ON OUR SIDE AND CALLS FOR WAR, or A HOLLY WAR!

DIVINE LOVES: serves life, it clothes us, wool cotton, fur from our animals, it feeds us, provides seeds, crops, fruits,vegetables, it PRE-SERVES US, planned and prepared all this before we were created. Gives us colours in creatures, rainbows, planets, gives us cultures and many experiences. INTELLIGENT DESIGN at its best for it is PERFECT and so are we!

If you want to go on the WORD OF GOD. Why do you fail to see you are already worthy, RIGHTEOUS? You do not NEED to repent to a false God!

DIVINE LOVE LOVES, IT DOES NOT NEED, IT JUST IS, AN ENERGY OF LOVING LOVE that serves you, not the other way around.

Once we embrace this love that loves us, and we embrace and love our neighbour and then our enemy who was never an enemy in the first place but was of an illusion we have enemies when we are all one and the same... an equell. We can see we are already RIGHTOEUS AND ALREADY SHINE because god has touched us and made us shine FIZZELING OUT EVILS in our world. They will not be cast to hell/punnished whatever, they will wake up and shine too until every last one of us sees we are THE RIGHTEOUS ALREADY.

Welcome to PEACE ON EARTH!

We will put our differences aside. Stop beliving that our one religion is THE RIGHT ONE/THE BEST ONE /will get you to god/heaven. and no other way is the RIGHT WAY. We will stop thinking we know better than everyone else and that somehow we are more superior instead of an equell. We will stop saying "you just don't get it, or understand". Everyone who has a deep set BELIFE in something says exactly this!

There is a difference between SPIRITUALITY and RELIGION. BELIVING and KNOWING!

Peace and love x

hi there

Imo christians need to wake up to the fact that the rapture they preach is there own and atheists need to wake up to the fact that even tho they disbelieve in god, and some go to gr8 lengths of study to disprove it to cristians and other faiths.
They may aswell believe in god cause they are dedicating there lives to it or him anyway!

To me the situations like squabbling kids in a playground, with a yearning to belong and be different in anyway possible

SouLJa

Originally posted by Earth Angel

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by riley
1) I really shouldn't be surprised that you absolved yourself the responsibility of throwing stones by blaming god.
2) But you just said you speak FOR god! Which is it?
3) Oh yes.. NOW I remember you. Persecuted guy.. I thought we established that you were NOT being persecuted and in fact only WANTED to be persecuted.. you even tried to make it real by provoking nasty reactions out of others by making biggoted statements about their beliefs. Is this about you wanting to qualify as 'meek' or 'chosen'? Do you want to inherit the earth?
4) "They told me off just because I was pelting rocks at them.. they said mean things. They should be punnished.. anyone got any rocks?!"
5) er.. you just called him a sinner. Sinner means immoral.. that is a judgement on his moral charactor [and anyone else who won't convert.] Whats your problem with buddhism? It basically follows Jesus' philosophies [specifically love and tolerence] anyway.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by riley]

Item One:
Whatever.
Item two:
I never said I speak for God, I am sharing with people who would never normally even pick up His Word in the first place. I mean you share YOUR opinion about atheism everywhere you tread in this arena, why should I not be allowed? Are you more special than me? More enlightened? I think not. It take discipline to believe in something, and committment. This is completely foriegn to you as you apparently believe in nothing, right? I mean if it bothers you that another has a faith that you lack then who is bigger the faithful or the faithless? It does not mean I speak for Him, that would necessitate that I was adding to it and I cannot.

Item three:
I won't address another thread in this one about YOUR assessment of what role YOU percieve me to play. Just because I didn't play by you and your friends rules and return to that thread, the jokes on you and your buddies.

Item four:
You need attention, I ask God give it to you...

Item five:
He IS a sinner, what part of "it is in the scriptures" don't you understand, oh all knowing one...

Your attacks are as laughable as you are pitiful. I'll pray that God sets you right soon, maybe a close call to jolt you awake to the reality that God is in control no matter how hard you deny your ignorance.....lol.

[edit on 3/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

I am glad you have your faith and belifes but I love the way in which you obviously belive YOU ARE RIGHT and so is your religion and its ways also.

I will say one thing: Love has NO CONDITION as love can not judge because judgeing is a NEGATIVE ACT.

My DIVINE LOVE, EMBRACES ME AS I AM, FOR I AM RIGHTOEOUS AND I SHINE BECUSE DIVINE LOVE HAS MADE ME SHINE! As more people SHINE and more people embrace life and love the sinners will FIZZEL OUT. As more are touched by LOVE, the light comes and then the world will wake up to its CONTROL AND CONDITIONS which cage the world up in NEGATIVITY!

AMEN!

sorry just wanted to state that sin means willfully ignorant, and yes u do speak for god as u r god and god is u!

Originally posted by SouLJa
To me the situations like squabbling kids in a playground, with a yearning to belong and be different in anyway possible
SouLJa

If theists are 'souls', then are atheists 'a-souls'? If God is real, would any single faith be the favorite, and get all the benefits, while the rest were denied them? Is atheism something a self-secure God would have any problems with? Who can say that they know without a doubt that 2 000 years ago, the Nazorean Jewish Rabbi from the royal line of David, called Yeshua Bar Joseph, actually existed? No contemporary eyewitness account exists which makes any mention of his entire personal circle, entourage, followers, disciples, family, or himself personally. The closest source I have seen besides the NT is Josephus, born about the time Yeshua was said to have been crucified. So, he could not have actually seen him. What if Yeshua really was God's right hand man, would he condemn His Holiness the XIVth Dalai Lama, Mahatma Gandhi, Confucius, and Carl Sagan to burn in hell eternally, just because they refused to let him take their sins? I bet my soul there is no way.
Atheists are just as righteous as theists. No religion can guarantee salvation, and no belief system excludes the individuals chance of it, imo. Anyone can become spiritually advanced, and no one gets to heaven merely by joining the right 'club'.

"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole. One should not think, 'My religion alone is the right path and other religions are false.' God can be realized by means of all paths. It is enough to have sincere yearning for God. Infinite are the paths and infinite are the opinions. Many are the names of God, & infinite are the forms through which He may be approached. In whatever name & form you worship Him, through them you will realize Him. One cannot be pure without being humble, because there is no greater impurity than ego.” Ramakrishna

From a logical perspective I only know what I see...
But I can't help but think there is something outside this realm of vision that we depend on so much. I don't know...I guess you can call it a -gut feeling-

HELL, I believe it is possible for atheists to believe in an -afterlife- so to speak, but from a logical perspective, we are energy, all matter is energy (from what I remember) so I dunno maybe there's something around there that we haven't quite discovered yet.

Also, I'm not a christian, I prefer no to speak of my own beliefs just the possibilities of what may exist beyond our physical presense in this universe.

[edit on 31-5-2006 by laiguana]

[edit on 31-5-2006 by laiguana]