soldiers penalized for buying superior armor

Originally posted by Clownface
Hmm anyone else wondering why he was shot so many times in the back?

Personally, I don't believe that tale. Getting shot implies a certain transfer of kinetic energy. You are going to notice.

Originally posted by Travellar
Personally, I don't believe that tale. Getting shot implies a certain transfer of kinetic energy. You are going to notice.

according to one article on the event, the guy wasn't shot all six times at once, and in the same area, there was a shootout that lasted for 5-10 minutes (they were defending themselves from a ambush) and the guy knew he was hit (not in the back as I'll explain later) he took a few hits and in the adrenaline of the moment keep on engaging multiple targets. Later when he got back to base, he took of his armor and notice a bump on the inside of the back and then he saw the 2 hits.

now what is so significant is that the 2 hits were below where the ceramic plate for the interceptor are (the only part of the best which could have barely defended a heavy round), and even if the 2 shots would have hit the plate, those ceramic plates tend to shattered from the impact from just one hit and the second one might have just gone through the shatter plate even. the most secure parts of the interceptor are directly above the plate inserts, the dragon skin has tiny platelets spread out all over the best, and the force is also spread out throughout the most of the vest instead of just a small plate that shatters from the impact.

This is what I remember when the story first hit the web before it was taken over as a dragon skin plug. I’m post the original story when I find it. Besides like I’ve said before a lot of the critics tend to mention dragon skin because of it’s consider to the be very best out there today, but they also point out that there are other armors not quite as good as dragon skin but a lot cheaper and much more effective than the interceptor kit.

ahh, so he DID notice he was hit.

Well, I guess I'll just throw in a musing that I saw a video on the internet recently that had been captured from a safe house of a sniper attack against a US Soldier. You here the report of the sniper rifle, (apparently the cameraman was right next to the sniper), you see the soldier get knocked over/fall down. The Soldier then proceeds to jump back up, pointing his weapon in about three different directions as he tries to figure out where the shot could've come from. Then he runs behind his Humvee. The reason I mention this video is one of my coworkers commented on just how useless it must've been for it's intended use as terrorist propoganda. Something like "$#%#!#@ Americans! Even when we shoot them, they don't stay down! We can't kill these @%#@@#$s!"

*no, I do not consider sniper attacks against our troops to be a source of amusment. Terrorists failing miserably in thier endevors to inflict harm (heck Terrorists failing in thier endevors to live long enough to inflict harm) is another matter. The only good terrorist is a dead one, and the only thing better is one who accidently takes out all his buddies with him.

Okay, I'm rambling, and will shut up now.

lol, I get your point there, that was the interceptor kit I think, with a direct hit onto the ceramic plate, the funny, well not funny part was that the plate was most likely shattered after that hit and a follow up shot by the sniper would have gone through, dragon skin would have displaced the force of the more so you wouldn't have gone down as hard and could have still taken a few more hits.

Originally posted by Oblivions void
I mean there was a report of private contractor being shot half a dozen times in the back with a AK-47 and him not even knowing he was hit till a few hours later when he was taking it off and saw a peculiar bump in the armor.

This is the most ludicrous statement that I have ever read or heard. Just as an example, the military-grade 7.62x39 fires a 123 grain bullet, while Remington uses a slightly heavier 125 grain bullet, take a look at these velocities. I don't care what kind of protection one is wearing, when a bullet hits an individual, he knows it. Even at two hundred yards, the bullet delivers 882 ft. lbs of energy.

The Remington factory load starts a 125 grain PSP bullets at 2365 fps with a muzzle energy of 1552 ft. lbs. At 100 yards the velocity has dropped to 2062 fps and the energy to 1180 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the velocity is 1783 fps and the energy is 882 ft. lbs. The trajectory of the Remington factory load for the 7.62x39 looks like this: +1.5" at 100 yards, 0 at 150 yards, -3.8" at 200 yards, -10.4" at 250 yards.

www.chuckhawks.com...

Google Search

I have to agree with the others here there is no way your going to not notice getting hit by a rifle round like that of the AK-47. Even when body armour stops a handgun round it can break ribs leaves a very nasty bruise and often people think they are really shot even through the vest because it hurts so much. This new armour might be amazing and even prevent the brusing but I doubt your not going to notice the strike.

With the 7.62x39mm round your talking about a bullet traveling at about 3,240 fps that amazing energy considering the typical 9mm pistol load propels a projectile at about 1,300fps

[edit on 19-1-2006 by ShadowXIX]

After the contact, when I removed my tactical vest, I saw that I had taken hits in the back of my vest. They were 7.62x39mm (AK-47) and they were inches apart. I was hit in the back (and we checked, if I was wearing any other body armor, I would not be writing this to you), as it were both low hits (below the typical 10”x12” plate coverage). In terms of bruising, nothing whatsoever. I did not even KNOW that I was hit twice until I took off my tactical vest (this was after about 2 hours after the contact) and saw the damage. It was only then that we took a close look at my body armor that we realized I was hit twice by an AK-47. I had another ricochet hit around the top end of my back that may have caused serious injury to my lower neck.

quote from the original article I read a few months back

here a link with photos of vest and event, I re-read the article, apparently 3 contractors died in this attack from an IED.

link:
www.defensereview.com...

I've found defense review to be very responsible in their reporting and have issued retractions when a slight impropriety has been found in their reporting, if it would have been the manufacturer tooting their own horn I would have taken it with a grain a salt, but I've found defense review to be very responsible and very dedicated to evaluating the best that the defense industry has to offer. They were one of the first to start highlighting RBCD (blended metals) bullet technology, issued immediate warnings on composite bullet casings after certain performance issues came to light, etc… go through their site and see what you’ve come up with.

www.military.com...

(edit: provided another link)

[edit on 1/19/2006 by Oblivions void]

I concede that a person who survived the incident documented in that article might not have noticed that he was shot. This description is decidedly different than the image of someone standing on the side of the road being shot and definitely different than the half dozen shots described in the post.


[edit on 2006/1/19 by GradyPhilpott]

I had gotten the half dozen hits mix up with some other reports, I hadn't read the link about the incident since it was originally posted six months ago till today, it was 2 armor piercing hits + a ricochet when I read the story in the posting above and had gotten it mix in with some other infomartion I've read since that time.

heres a link of a vest shot with 7.62x51mm M80 ball steel-jacketed round (2850-2900 fps) at a distance of 15ft (muzzle to body ELEVEN HITS NO PENETRATION)

direct link to pic: www.defensereview.com...

heres another pic of one of the panels after being shot with 7.62x39mm armor-piercing round (mild-steel-core penetrator)

link to pic: www.defensereview.com...

link to complete article: www.defensereview.com...

If Dragonskin really is as good as defensereview its amazing.

I suppose it's worth mentioning for the record that ceramic armors do not stop bullets by shattering and distributing the energy that way. They actually are so hard the bullets smash themselves on impact. However, each bullet strike does reduce the strength of the armor plate, increasing it's vulnerability to shattering (and providing NO protection) on each subsequent shot.

Looking more into this armour and its hard since they are keeping details hush hush it appear to be a new spin on a old idea.

It seems very much like

Scale armour

Using modern cermaics and metals in combination with kevlar you could get the protection of a single large plate but with much better flexibility which a single plate would have really none..

I think thats how it works in that aspect atleast

www.defensereview.com...

new article up relating to this issue and similar problems with small arms procurement and the like, very interesting read.

Shadow, yeah that's basically the idea, one of the potential name for dragon skin was going to be something along the names of fish scale armor or so, lol.

travelar, yeah that's the main advantage that dragon skin has over other armors, the impact on a conventional ceramic plate tends to smash the whole plate after stopping one to 2 rounds of significant strength, while dragon skin is made up of dozens of individual plates that while one by rendered useless or less effective the scale right next to it or one scale after that would be at full strength unlike a conventional plate or those specifically used by the interceptor from a lot of reports and criticism which tends to shattered and after one hit no matter where on the plate.

been away for a while, dont know if this has been posted on other threads but here are some new info and test on drangon skin and so on....

www.defensereview.com...
some info on how some are running from a conclusive military spec test of drangon and so on


here are some live fire test result with 7.62x39mm FMJ and 9mm ammo, there are some video links that are a must see:

www.defensereview.com...

One thing also about those AK-47 rounds, it isn't as if the terrorists are all using quality-built AK-47s. Most of them are very cheaply built and don't have a properly rifled barrel, so the bullets thus tumble out of the barrel when fired, instead of spinning rapidly as they're supposed to. This takes away a lot of their effectiveness.

Regarding the question of a tax increase, excellent body armor for our military is one thing I would most definitely want to pay extra taxes for. There are plenty of other taxes that should be dropped, but our soldiers should have the best equipment they can.

Im a bit late to this article, but from what I've read this is lunacy from the US DoD.
To refuse a man the use of his own equipment in the field is utter madness! if the troops want drangon skin and purchase it themselves then they should be allowed to!

Here in the UK troops purchase smocks (Tops) from companies over the issue kit - Boots, sleeping bags, camel packs (re-hydration kit) ect ect. The only regulation kit is your respirator, helmet, webbing (But you can adapt it to personal preference ie extra ammo pouches ect) and rifle. As a former infanteer I always was amazed by the difference in personal kit we used to have in our unit. Some swore by SAS smocks, others para smocks - some wore danner boots, others swore by German para boots. All our CO said was that if it was standard cammo pattern, clean and not sh#t kit we could wear it. For instance in the cold I wore a falklands smock because it was warm as heck - where others wore buffalo kit ect. It was amazing to see the only one time we all wore identical kit - butt naked in the showers! rofl.

After reading all of this the only assumption I can come up with is that the DoD won't allow it because they signed that 30.1 million dollar contract, but still it seems stupid to make your soldiers use inferior equipment. Maybe there is a flaw in this "Dragon Skin" that we aren't seeing, maybe its highly unreliable, easily broken, who knows. Maybe the company that produces the current armor will take this "Dragon Skin" idea and run with it, making it standard issue for our troops.

At these proving grounds, they test stuff that companies want to sell to the government. And they test the HELL out of them. If they don't pass, then the company does not get the contract and the government is not allowed to issue them to the soldiers, and is not allowed to permit the soldiers to use them. Either the "Dragon Skin" armor has not been submitted for testing, or it did not pass the tests.

I have been to the Dugway Proving Grounds, and they even showed me the sections of Biosuits they are testing. First they test each individual part with simulated agents. Then they test them with dilute agents. Then they test the whole suit with simlants, then the real deal afterwards. They have to test the suit against ANYTHING a soldier may come into contact with - diesel fuel, regular fuel, jet fuel. PLUS, they have to make sure that the stuff they decontaminate the suits with won't ruin them. I'm planning on getting a job with them as a Chemical Analyst because I would feel good if I had the chance to make sure that our boys get good stuff that we KNOW works.

The government can't allow soldiers to buy and use commercial stuff because they will ultimately be held liable in case the soldiers were tricked into buying a piece of crap.

Remember the cheapest bidder made all your equipment...

The US or any goverment doesn't give a sh## about its troops. During the second gulf war alot of my friends had to purchase their own desert kit and body armour because the UK is too tight arsed to purchase more for its combat troops. There was even a tragic death due to a tank commander being ordered to give his vest to an infantry soldier. the tankie was shot and killed the same day - had he had the vest on the wound site was where his plate would of sat. sad but makes me