34th Floor of the WTC!!!

Originally posted by Insolubrious
Dear CameronFox,

you say there isn't any failure to the building after the squibs are set off?

So why then does the building not fail until the rest of the building catches up? To me that indicates it's the falling building doing the damage.

Yet there is failure to the building after the squibs are set off, total and catostrophic failure only a seconds later (if that)! Besides the plan was more about destruction than creating failure.

Those "couple of seconds later (if that)" is when the falling floors and tower hits the "squib zone". In a real controlled demolition you can see the building shift where the bomb goes off milliseconds afterwoods.

Remember, these were two of the largest buildings in the world! If it were official C.D it would of been a record breaker, not to mention a monumental task.

Yes, which would have taken 12 men over 72 straight days to prepare.

There was so much more explosive energy required and a much larger area to be destroyed than an average C.D job. The explosives were not planted at the edges of the outer walls, but rather deeper in the central core.

Why is it then, that the core was the last part of the building standing?

The pressure is moving faster outwards than the visible destruction. C.D usually happens from the base and travels upwards, this was a wave of destruction travelling downwards.

Which is typical of a pancake collapse, but not of a controlled demolition.

It cannot be compared to other C.D jobs since all the C.D videos we see are of very small and weaker buildings using different techniques, lower yields and different types of explosives.

Well why are you doing it then?

These squibs are huge and centralized! If it were simply caused by pressures from above then they would of been bursting out on all the floors all the way down in chorus and I doubt anyone would question it. However they emerge from limited locations and are centralized.

Not necessarily. The "squibs" would simply occur where the lest resistance to the compressed air is. For instance, the wind would relieve pressure via a broken or cracked window before and intact one.

What is interesting is the way these "squibs" work. They appear to act in an exact reversal of normal explosions.

But if we examine the anomaly closely, we see these [would be] explosives work in reverse to an explosive blast. They tend to spurt out and then increase with time. An explosive works in reverse to this. Its strongest point is the moment the charge is set off. It doesn't increase its explosive strength with time.

www.debunking911.com...

I fail how you can link noises and machinery on a construction floor to a controlled demolition. To be honest if there was construction going on upstairs and everything was completley quiet - then I would be worried.

Originally posted by doctorfungi

Originally posted by Insolubrious
Dear CameronFox,

you say there isn't any failure to the building after the squibs are set off?

So why then does the building not fail until the rest of the building catches up? To me that indicates it's the falling building doing the damage.

Yet there is failure to the building after the squibs are set off, total and catostrophic failure only a seconds later (if that)! Besides the plan was more about destruction than creating failure.

Those "couple of seconds later (if that)" is when the falling floors and tower hits the "squib zone". In a real controlled demolition you can see the building shift where the bomb goes off milliseconds afterwoods.

Remember, these were two of the largest buildings in the world! If it were official C.D it would of been a record breaker, not to mention a monumental task.

Yes, which would have taken 12 men over 72 straight days to prepare.

There was so much more explosive energy required and a much larger area to be destroyed than an average C.D job. The explosives were not planted at the edges of the outer walls, but rather deeper in the central core.

Why is it then, that the core was the last part of the building standing?

The pressure is moving faster outwards than the visible destruction. C.D usually happens from the base and travels upwards, this was a wave of destruction travelling downwards.

Which is typical of a pancake collapse, but not of a controlled demolition.

It cannot be compared to other C.D jobs since all the C.D videos we see are of very small and weaker buildings using different techniques, lower yields and different types of explosives.

Well why are you doing it then?

These squibs are huge and centralized! If it were simply caused by pressures from above then they would of been bursting out on all the floors all the way down in chorus and I doubt anyone would question it. However they emerge from limited locations and are centralized.

Not necessarily. The "squibs" would simply occur where the lest resistance to the compressed air is. For instance, the wind would relieve pressure via a broken or cracked window before and intact one.

What is interesting is the way these "squibs" work. They appear to act in an exact reversal of normal explosions.

But if we examine the anomaly closely, we see these [would be] explosives work in reverse to an explosive blast. They tend to spurt out and then increase with time. An explosive works in reverse to this. Its strongest point is the moment the charge is set off. It doesn't increase its explosive strength with time.

www.debunking911.com...

I fail how you can link noises and machinery on a construction floor to a controlled demolition. To be honest if there was construction going on upstairs and everything was completley quiet - then I would be worried.

Good points, I will have a go..

point 1: perhaps the pressure from falling floors above was required to finish that section off?

point 2: It was deep inside rather than at the edge, so there was not really any visible effects on the outside like explosions or a fireball. I already said this wasn't really a C.D, if we could strip away the outer walls and see what was actually happening inside it would tell a different story.

point 3: 72 days with 12 men? I would like to know how did you arrive at that figure? I figured it would be more like 40-50 men working for a few years!

point 4: the core was a much harder target!

point 5: whenever has a pancake collapse created micron scaled devistation of concrete and charred wrecks of cars that weren't even hit by the debris?

point 6: I am? More like I am comparing it to how it is unlike a C.D.

pont 7: Highly unlikely, unless you can show me the exact points where the squibs are in relation to how little resistance these area were, there is no indication these areas were any weaker than others most of the floors were practically identical excluding the sky lobby areas.

point 8: different type of explosives produce different results.




[edit on 28-11-2006 by Insolubrious]

Originally posted by Insolubrious
Good points, I will have a go..

point 1: perhaps the pressure from falling floors above was required to finish that section off?

Even then, we would see the columns shift or crack. Nothing visable happened.

point 2: It was deep inside rather than at the edge, so there was not really any visible effects on the outside like explosions or a fireball. I already said this wasn't really a C.D, if we could strip away the outer walls and see what was actually happening inside it would tell a different story.

That would mean the building would collapse in on itself with the core being cut and falling first. Which is impossilbe seeing as the core finished coming down a good 10 seconds after the rest of it.

point 3: 72 days with 12 men? I would like to know how did you arrive at that figure? I figured it would be more like 40-50 men working for a few years!

Non stop 12 hour shifts

point 4: the core was a much harder target!

Evidently, seeing as it fell last.

point 5: whenever has a pancake collapse created micron scaled devistation of concrete and charred wrecks of cars that weren't even hit by the debris?

Which begs the question - when have you seen a 110 storey building pancake on itself?

The dust wasn't just concrete.

Microscopic analysis of WTC dust by Nicholas Petraco, BS, MS, DABC, FAAFS, FNYMS at The New York Microscopic Society lecture held at AMNH 28 May 2003

45.1% Fiberglass, rock wool (insulation, fireproofing)
31.8% Plaster (gypsum), concrete products (calcium sulfate, selenite, muscodite)
7.1% Charred wood and debris
2.1% Paper fibers
2.1% Mica flakes
2.0% Ceiling tiles (fiberglass component)
2.0% Synthetic fibers
1.4% Glass fragments
1.3% Human remains
1.4% Natural fibers
trace asbestos (it became illegal to use during the construction of the WTC)

Other trace elements: aluminum, paint pigments, blood, hair, glass wool with resin, and prescription drugs were found.
www.janegalt.net...

point 6: I am? More like I am comparing it to how it is unlike a C.D.

My mistake

pont 7: Highly unlikely, unless you can show me the exact points where the squibs are in relation to how little resistance these area were, there is no indication these areas were any weaker than others most of the floors were practically identical excluding the sky lobby areas.

Straw Man.

There is no indication these exact areas are weaker. But it is possilble. That's all I'm saying.

That's just one of several explanations. More here:

www.debunking911.com...

point 8: different type of explosives produce different results.

Well what kind of explosive works in reverse? C4, nukes? They work in different ways but all of them let out the *bang!* before everything else. None of them let out
a stream like air coming out of a syringe.

these "squibs" were hot or cold water, mixed with steam and dust.

Try yourself to explain where that came from. I have several ideas.

that microscopic analysis of WTC dust is a very good find to add to the USGS analysis.

I would like you to read this post of mine :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The most interesting part for this discussion is the USGS WTC dust investigation fact sheet and its plotted chart.
They found about 1% asbestos in their dust samples. They were however forbidden to sample at Ground Zero, only around it !

The full USGS WTC dust sampling report, released on November 27, 2001, can be found here :
geology.cr.usgs.gov...

and the fact sheet version, which shows the dust chart, here :
pubs.usgs.gov...

In the dust chart plot, these are the color tags :
1.WTC sample range, blue on that chart.
2.WTC sample mean, yellow on that chart.
3.Eastern US soil mean, red on that chart.

The plot compares the concentration ranges and mean concentrations of chemical elements in the WTC dusts (this study) to the mean concentrations of the same elements in soils from the eastern United States (other studies).

Results :
Implications for Dust Cleanup As stated in the initial USGS report to emergency response workers on Sept. 27, 2001, the materials identified by this study in the WTC dust and debris (chrysotile asbestos, glass fibers, alkaline concrete particles, potentially soluble metals) indicate that cleanup of dusts and the WTC debris should be done with appropriate respiratory protection and dust control measures.

Edit: These are the chemistry tables, on which that diagram above is based :
pubs.usgs.gov...

[edit on 28/11/06 by LaBTop]

Originally posted by bsbray11
A comfortable walking speed is around 3.1 mph There are 5280 feet in a mile. So 3.1 mph = 16368 ft. per hour, which is the same as 272.8 ft. per minute, or 4.5 ft. per second.
Each floor was 12 feet high. Assuming the stairs were at 45 degree angles (which looks as if it creates additional distance than was actually there because of how steep it is), we can get the following:
By Pythagorean Theorem, a² + b² = c². whereas c is the hypotenuse, and a and b are the remaining sides. So 144 + 144 = 288, and the square root of 288 is 16.97, which I'll round up to 17. Therefore we can estimate the stairs being about 17 feet long per floor.

I'll throw in 10 feet on each floor between each set of stairs. So we have 17 feet of stairs per floor, and 10 feet between each set on each floor.

17 ft. + 10 ft. = 27 ft.
27 ft. * 33 = 561 ft.

So we can estimate about 561 ft. to walk up 33 floors of stairs.

According to the earlier figure of 272.8 ft. per minute, at a comfortable walking pace, 561 feet can be comfortably walked in a little over 2 minutes. Therefore, if Rodriguez was moving fairly quickly, and given the circumstances we can assume he was, then it would've taken him less than 2 minutes to climb up those 33 floors. If he was jogging at about 6.2 mph, it would've taken him 1 minute to climb the 33 floors.

1 minute to climb up, 2/11 of that time to climb an additional 6 floors (6/33 = 2/11) and the same time doubled to come back down, leaves him about 13 full minutes to actually help people and not just running up and down stairs.

He had plenty of time.

This man was one of the heros of 9/11, yes, but not because of any superhuman abilities. Any healthy person could do the physical work he did in the given amount of time; I've just shown it wouldn't be hard - at all. You should be ashamed for accusing this man of lying in the first place.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by bsbray11]

Your math may be correct but it has no relevance to the point that you are trying to make. Your source defines stride length as a function of leg length as compaired to a pendulum. This would probably be correct if you were walking on a flat level surface. The man was climbing stairs. Quite a bit more work involved than walking on a flat surface. I'm not disputing the man's story, I am disputing the point that you are trying to make with these BS calculations.

The source was also defining a walking pace, and not the pace someone would be taking while trying to save lives in an emergency situation, so I think we're still on the conservative side of things here, JIMC.

Originally posted by LaBTop
that microscopic analysis of WTC dust is a very good find to add to the USGS analysis.

I would like you to read this post of mine :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The most interesting part for this discussion is the USGS WTC dust investigation fact sheet and its plotted chart.
They found about 1% asbestos in their dust samples. They were however forbidden to sample at Ground Zero, only around it !

You have voted LaBTop for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Anybody notice anything missing from the dust analysis?

How about Nitrates? Since most explosives are Nitrate based wouldn't you expect to find it in the analysis? If explosives were responsible (they were not) for the destruction of the towers and if these so called "squibs" were from explosives then you should expect to find residue from them in the dust analysis.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Sorry; I just proved mathematically that it wouldn't be that hard, judging by the distances involved. There would be time to spare to allow people to pass on their way down; no problem.

You can speculate all you'd like, but his testimony adds up perfectly as it stands. Sorry Howard.

hey, your maths isnt too bad...hows your physics. running 561 ft horozontally is one thing. running 561 ft at a constant 45 degree angle to the vertical at a contstant velocity is a whole new kettle of fish. im sorry, but yes, mathematically, u are correct. but in a real world situation, you are dead wrong. and thats just the plain truth.

Originally posted by effekt
hey, your maths isnt too bad...hows your physics. running 561 ft horozontally is one thing. running 561 ft at a constant 45 degree angle to the vertical at a contstant velocity is a whole new kettle of fish. im sorry, but yes, mathematically, u are correct. but in a real world situation, you are dead wrong. and thats just the plain truth.

Yeah except I calculated a WALKING PACE. It took, what, two minutes to WALK? How's your common sense? This man would have been running in this situation. I think that MORE than makes up for the fact that there was an incline, which just means you have to raise your feet higher.

I just have a few questions.

1. Has anyone here ever had an adrenaline rush before? If so then you know you could pretty much take down just about anything if you put your mind to it.

and

2. Is it so hard to assume that this guy who ran up the stairs was simply on an adrenaline rush? I mean I know if I was in that building I would be so hopped up it would be insane. The human body has limits and granted it is an amazing thing this guy may or may not have done but theres all kinds of crazy poo that goes on when the human mind is put into play. I read a news report of a woman lifting a car off of her child because he was trapped.

Just a few thoughts. This is my first post so dont ream or laugh at me to hard

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 18/12/2006 by Mirthful Me]

As i posted on another thread the WTC buildings were closed only parts of the building for construction but no recordes indicated any building just replacing pipes and electrcal equipment.

MDIA Special Agent
AUS/USA

There were also reports of Arabic speaking workers of the WTC and contruction workers speaking in Arabic, Who had criminal records, mainly arson all had attendent pilot tranning,explosives tranning in Afganistan.

MDIA Special Agent
AUS/USA

I don't know if anyone pointed this out already, but I just wanted to remind everyone.

Willy was the janitor. He walked up and down those stairs all day long for 20 years. He had to have amazing cardio at that time.

Nothing about his story seems disingenuous. In fact, there's a firemen on The 9/11 Chronicles, who thanks Willy Rodriguez for saving his life.

I can't remember the name, but this fireman said he was looking for a way down, and he opened a closet, and he saw a DEAD BODY!!

So, take these 2 pieces of information: activity on the 34th floor, and a dead body in the closet. It would indicate somebody was doing some last minute "work." Most likely, I would speculate there was a bank either on the 35th floor or the 33rd floor. It most likely had lots and lots of gold in it. This "workers" were pulling off ripping off some gold amid the confusion.

Also, remember Bushy said he saw the 1st plane go into the tower...The Naday brothers footage from the documentary 9/11, which is the only footage of the 1st plane hitting the tower, didn't surface until the following day. That means Bush is really saying he watched the 1st plane hit the tower a "closed circuit" monitor. Then, he goes into the classroom to establish his alibi?

(There were lots of banks in the Twin Towers)


That's my 2 cents.

P.S. In order to take down the Twin Towers, which were literally 2 MILLION TONS of steel, concrete, asbestos, etc... it would literally take TONS OF THERMITE, which would have to be placed strategically throughout the buildings, which would literally take months, if not years, to get everything just right. That's were Marvin Bush comes into play. As a director of Securacom from 93 to 00, he had plenty of time to supervise the largest controlled demolition in history--bringing down WTC 1, 2, and 7.

It's a sick #in' world we live in.

P.S.S. If you haven't already, I would YouTube: Who killed JFK Jr.? Who killed JFK? Prescott Bush. This will shed volumes of light on what the Bush's are capable of.

reply to post by eoyn

Here's the "last survivor."
link

For all those that are questioning Rodriguez, I'd just like to point out that his job was to clean the stairwells of the WTC towers--every day. 108 floors, a day. And that was only a part of his schedule.

Jeez. A new low.

reply to post by gottago


Gootago...

How often do you think stairwells get used in a 110 story office building? (and make it untidy)

I work in a 38 story building...the stairwells are impeccable and they are very rarely cleaned. (lower floors more often)

here is another link to more names - WTC
www.nd.edu...