Vampires, Lycans, and Witches...and the Church...

Perhaps I could be making a contradiction to my own post by stating this, but here it goes:

The Church (talking about the Catholic Church here), in the past, basically issued statements saying that vampires, lycans, and witches were something to take into consideration (albeit these decrees were not made at one time). So, does this make the point for the existence of beings such as vampires and lycans (witches thrown aside because I'm honestly more interested in vampires and lycans)?

I supposed that throwing "The Church" into the equation would eliminate the opinions of those with no Christian background, foundation, or belief for this specific purpose. Whether or not these entities exist, and whether or not Christianity is the correct religion (if any religion at all) is beside the point. That is the precise reason that I posted this in the Cryptozoology and Mythical Beasts section, and not religious conspiracies.

Any input or ideas would be much appreciated, but please realize that this is concerning the existence of vampires, lycans, etc...NOT God...

The simple fact that the Church has issued statements concerning vampires and werewolves in no way serves as a point in favour of the existence of these creatures, in my opinion.

Traditionally, the Church has demonstrated an extremely well developed ability to adapt its teachings and proclamations to incorporate the beliefs of the indigenous peoples of an area in which the Church imposed itself. This adaptation had less to do with the reality of a given belief (in this case vampires and werewolves) and more to do with the Church acknowledging that it is far more effective to incorporate local beliefs into its own teachings and thereby gain some measure of control over them than it is to attempt to stamp out these beliefs in their entriety. Evidence of this can be seen best in the Church's incorporation of pagan gods and goddesses, as well as pagan practices into its own system of beliefs and practices.

Throughout many parts of Europe, the Church was quick to realise that they would win more converts by associating aspects of traditional beliefs with its own teachings. Thus, the Horned God worshipped throughout many rural areas of Europe became associated with Satan. Similarly, the Church associated its own holy festivals with those of the pagan locals. The classic example of this is Easter, the symbols of which are derived from the worship of the fertility goddess Eostre. Now, the Church's incorporation and adaptation of local beliefs and practices does not mean that the Church itself believes in their existence or validity. It simply means that they have acknowledged that they will win more converts by identifying local beliefs with their own teachings than they will through attempting to stamp out the local beliefs altogether.

So it is with vampires and werewolves. Belief in vampiric creatures (often very different from our modern view of vampires, which has been largely shaped by literature and Hollywood) and shapeshifters clearly predates the emergence of the Church in Europe (Reference 1; Reference 2). Recognising the need to incorporate these local beliefs into its own teachings, the Church began to associate the act of becoming a vampire with misdeeds committed throughout life and the act of becoming a werewolf with sorcery or pacts with the devil.

The Church's success in this endeavour can be seen in the reworking of the processes by which one went about becoming a vampire or a werewolf. Vampires were held to be the risen bodies of those who had committed grave sins in life, such as suicide, or those who had been born out of wedlock or who had been excommunicated by the Church (Reference). Similarly, werewolves were often held to be evil men who had submitted their will to Satan in exchange for a magical girdle or ointment which allowed them to change their form into that of a wolf (Reference). In this way, the Church successfully adapted the legends of both vampires and werewolves to suit its own principles and teachings, and were therefore able to better exert their influence over the local inhabitants by incorporating their long-held indigenous beliefs into Church dogma.

However, this in no way indicates that the Church believed that vampires and werewolves ever actually existed. Whilst it is undeniable that certain members of the Church indeed believed in the reality of these creatures, in my opinion, the Church's acknowledgement of vampires and werewolves began as an effort to adapt local beliefs and superstitions to suit their own end of converting and gaining power over local populations.

[edit on 16/1/06 by Jeremiah25]

Look around on this cryptozoology forum, and you'll find plenty of threads discussing vampires and lycans. As for the Catholic church, they have been notorious for killing, plundering, assassinating, and carrying out massive exterminations of people due to corrupt popes and church figureheads.

Galileo, for example, was killed for implying that the sun revolved around the Earth. Today, we know that Galileo was right, meaning that the Pope was wrong to put him to death.


Another famous example of the Catholic church being corrupt dates back to the crusades. The Knights Templars, which were extremely devout warriors of the Church, took hold of a castle while battling the enemy. Inside of the castle walls, they found the (im not sure if they really are) lost chapters of the bible. These were later to be called the apocryphal bible and had books by Mary Magdalene and various others. When the church found out, they accused the Knights Templars of heresy. The Catholic Church ordered the apocryphal bible to be hidden again, and accused the devout Templars of practicing witchcraft, conspiring against the Pope, urinating on the cross, disobeying the will of God, and other absurd activities. Thousands of Knights Templars were rounded up and put into prisons. These knights fought and died for what they believed in, and the church had no right to do this to them. They were all tortured for weeks on end, and finally slaughtered on October 13, 1307. This is also why people consider Friday the 13th unlucky.



I can name numerous other times that the Catholic church has been corrupt, but that would probably offend some people. I don't believe that all the Popes were corrupt, but many were. They have been known to use their power for accusing entire towns of heresy and wiping them all out for their land and $. The sad truth is that the Catholic Church is not always right, and that's probably why I'm a Protestant.

You should note that Lycans and Werewolves are two seperate things. The term lycan is short hand for lycantrophy, which means a human transforming into a wolf. Where Werewolves are humans that turn into a hybrid wolf-man.


Lycans=Skinwalkers essentially

Personally, I'm surprised to hear that about the Catholic Church. I, myself, being raised as a Catholic, have never heard anything of the sort. But it does explain quite a bit about my father's strange behavior when it came to my mother's captivation with Vampires. I do believe that witches, vampires, and lycans walk the earth this very moment, and I have good reason. But I am also aware of the skeptics who dismissed such things as the Salem Witch Trials as ignorance. But on, humans will do as they please. They never really seem to get over the simple-mindedness that there is something other than their quaint humanity (not saying anyone here is simple-minded).

Thank you Jeremiah25, TheBlueSoldier, and WolfofWar.

Jeremiah25: The information that you posted is right on with what I was trying to tell my friend about influence. Thank you very much for posting reference (because that is what I lacked).

TheBlueSoldier: Catholic Church = Corruption? You have to be kidding me! I think I figured that one out as soon as...well...I'm not Catholic either, so I think we're on the same side there. You taught me something about Friday the 13th though, and that was very interesting, I shall look more into that. Some accounts say that the Church basically just through the "Apocryphial books" out because it didn't go along with the hold mind and pocketbook control theory of the day. It still doesn't, and we can't just pop up and say "hey, look what we found" about something that's already been talked about for years.

WolfofWar: yeah...I'd much rather be a Lycan, thank you for correcting me

(no message)

[edit on 1/17/2006 by catastrophic_insinuations]

All I know is that Most withces where likely wrongly accused in salem, Would prefer to be lycan than vampiric or wiccan, etc.

Originally posted by TheBlueSoldier
Galileo, for example, was killed for implying that the sun revolved around the Earth. Today, we know that Galileo was right, meaning that the Pope was wrong to put him to death.

The church did not kill Galileo, it is an established historical fact that he was found guilty and placed under what we would call "house arrest" until he died.

Vas

Originally posted by WolfofWar
You should note that Lycans and Werewolves are two seperate things. The term lycan is short hand for lycantrophy, which means a human transforming into a wolf. Where Werewolves are humans that turn into a hybrid wolf-man.


Lycans=Skinwalkers essentially

I dont know where you got that. Lycan or Lycanthrope come from the words lycos meaning wolf and Anthropos meaning man. Lycanthropy Is really a catch all term for Therianthropy or basic human to animal transumtation. Any Human to animal Transmutaion would fall into Therianthropy and more commonly called Lycanthropy, wither or not there was a full transutaion or just a half transmutaion. Also Lycanthropes have been described in mayny shapes and sizes from large wolfs to Wolf men (a more common image due to the success of the early wolfman movies). The "true" Lycanthropes do not transufure Lycanthropy though wounding a victum but they would rather maul and kill there victum. The Original Form of Lycanthropy was beived to be orginaly obtained by wearing a magic animal pelt or striking a deal with Satan. About 80% of whats known about Lycanthropy was made up by Hollywood, due to the lack of any great novels about them. One of the most famous "Lycan" stories is the French story of the Beast of Gevuandan (sp?) which was rumored to be everything from a Liger (half lion half tiger) to a Lycanthrope. The term Werewolf is common term used in the middle ages to describe Lycanthropes

The first time I heard the term Lycan was in the preveiw of the second Underworld movie. I honestly have Mixed feelings about this movie series and I honsetly dont think I will see either.


And my credentials for anyone who want to start a debate are 10 years of Therianthropy study and a thing for Cat girls






[edit on 21-1-2006 by masamune_of_bevenia]

You are partially true. Shape changing into an animal form is Lycantrhophy, not neccesarily into a Wolf. Lycos is Wolf, but that singular term now has a broader range and scope. What term should actually be used is in the above post. Werewolves are the most famous, but Werebats, Wereweasels, pretty much Were-anything hybrids could occur if such a thing exists.

Of course, especially back in the 1700's and earlier, the Church would have accepted such ideas. It was something the Church could 'protect' the public from, and therefore exert more control over.

As for Corruption, look at Joan of Arc. Murdered by the Church for dressing as a man to fight (heresey!), though she did so because she claimed God told her to do so. She was a National Heroin, and brought much Glory to the Church, and they killed her. Then, later, they recant and make her a Saint.

The Catholic Church is the greatest political machine of all time, due to some (not all) of the Popes not being quiet as Pious as thought. (This does not reflect on the believers, merely some of the leaders.)

The Apocraphy is with held for (to me a ludicrious) a reason. Stories in it, like Bell and the Idol, and the one about the Dragon and the Saint, were thought to be to far-fetched. They wanted the Bible to be taken LITERALLY, and such stories were hard to accept in a Literal sense. (I know, I know. Alot of stuff in the Bible shouldn't be taken Literal. Alot is far fetched. Not sure what was so overboard with these tales, but the Pope of the time wanted nothing of it).

[edit on 21-1-2006 by BradKellBrrexkl]

Originally posted by masamune_of_bevenia

Originally posted by WolfofWar
You should note that Lycans and Werewolves are two seperate things. The term lycan is short hand for lycantrophy, which means a human transforming into a wolf. Where Werewolves are humans that turn into a hybrid wolf-man.


Lycans=Skinwalkers essentially

I dont know where you got that. Lycan or Lycanthrope come from the words lycos meaning wolf and Anthropos meaning man. Lycanthropy Is really a catch all term for Therianthropy or basic human to animal transumtation. Any Human to animal Transmutaion would fall into Therianthropy and more commonly called Lycanthropy, wither or not there was a full transutaion or just a half transmutaion. Also Lycanthropes have been described in mayny shapes and sizes from large wolfs to Wolf men (a more common image due to the success of the early wolfman movies). The "true" Lycanthropes do not transufure Lycanthropy though wounding a victum but they would rather maul and kill there victum. The Original Form of Lycanthropy was beived to be orginaly obtained by wearing a magic animal pelt or striking a deal with Satan. About 80% of whats known about Lycanthropy was made up by Hollywood, due to the lack of any great novels about them. One of the most famous "Lycan" stories is the French story of the Beast of Gevuandan (sp?) which was rumored to be everything from a Liger (half lion half tiger) to a Lycanthrope. The term Werewolf is common term used in the middle ages to describe Lycanthropes

The first time I heard the term Lycan was in the preveiw of the second Underworld movie. I honestly have Mixed feelings about this movie series and I honsetly dont think I will see either.


And my credentials for anyone who want to start a debate are 10 years of Therianthropy study and a thing for Cat girls

[edit on 21-1-2006 by masamune_of_bevenia]

In folklore, Lycanthropy is the ability or power of a human being to undergo transformation into a wolf. The term comes from ancient Greek lykánthropos (λυκάνθρωπος): λύκος, lýkos ("wolf") + άνθρωπος, ánthrōpos ("man"). The word lycanthropy is often used generically for any transformation of a human into animal form, though the precise term for that is technically therianthropy.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by WolfofWar

Originally posted by masamune_of_bevenia

Originally posted by WolfofWar
You should note that Lycans and Werewolves are two seperate things. The term lycan is short hand for lycantrophy, which means a human transforming into a wolf. Where Werewolves are humans that turn into a hybrid wolf-man.


Lycans=Skinwalkers essentially

I dont know where you got that. Lycan or Lycanthrope come from the words lycos meaning wolf and Anthropos meaning man. Lycanthropy Is really a catch all term for Therianthropy or basic human to animal transumtation. Any Human to animal Transmutaion would fall into Therianthropy and more commonly called Lycanthropy, wither or not there was a full transutaion or just a half transmutaion. Also Lycanthropes have been described in mayny shapes and sizes from large wolfs to Wolf men (a more common image due to the success of the early wolfman movies). The "true" Lycanthropes do not transufure Lycanthropy though wounding a victum but they would rather maul and kill there victum. The Original Form of Lycanthropy was beived to be orginaly obtained by wearing a magic animal pelt or striking a deal with Satan. About 80% of whats known about Lycanthropy was made up by Hollywood, due to the lack of any great novels about them. One of the most famous "Lycan" stories is the French story of the Beast of Gevuandan (sp?) which was rumored to be everything from a Liger (half lion half tiger) to a Lycanthrope. The term Werewolf is common term used in the middle ages to describe Lycanthropes

The first time I heard the term Lycan was in the preveiw of the second Underworld movie. I honestly have Mixed feelings about this movie series and I honsetly dont think I will see either.


And my credentials for anyone who want to start a debate are 10 years of Therianthropy study and a thing for Cat girls

[edit on 21-1-2006 by masamune_of_bevenia]

In folklore, Lycanthropy is the ability or power of a human being to undergo transformation into a wolf. The term comes from ancient Greek lykánthropos (λυκάνθρωπος): λύκος, lýkos ("wolf") + άνθρωπος, ánthrōpos ("man"). The word lycanthropy is often used generically for any transformation of a human into animal form, though the precise term for that is technically therianthropy.

en.wikipedia.org...

yeah if you read trhough both articles on Lycantropy and werewolfs no where id thay say they are 2 diffrent things... ones english name and ones a greek name..... btw thanks for turning me on the thouse... never even thought to check wikipedia....

Originally posted by TheBlueSoldier

Another famous example of the Catholic church being corrupt dates back to the crusades. The Knights Templars, which were extremely devout warriors of the Church, took hold of a castle while battling the enemy. Inside of the castle walls, they found the (im not sure if they really are) lost chapters of the bible. These were later to be called the apocryphal bible and had books by Mary Magdalene and various others. When the church found out, they accused the Knights Templars of heresy. The Catholic Church ordered the apocryphal bible to be hidden again, and accused the devout Templars of practicing witchcraft, conspiring against the Pope, urinating on the cross, disobeying the will of God, and other absurd activities. Thousands of Knights Templars were rounded up and put into prisons. These knights fought and died for what they believed in, and the church had no right to do this to them. They were all tortured for weeks on end, and finally slaughtered on October 13, 1307. This is also why people consider Friday the 13th unlucky.

Right on th money about the Templars, you know they started with a membership of 9 in the year 1111, (some say thats why 9/11 happened that day) they then went on to become freemasons. Yes they do practice magick but it is negative magick.

The church made the practitioners of Witchcraft look evil because they were who the people went to for spiritual/physical healing. They wanted the RCC Priests to perform the role of meduim between people and God.

The word Witch is derived from the word Weeche, translated "the wise ones" and Weechecraft was "the craft of the wise". It was changed to Witchcraft, and the church performed a smear campaign to make the "Wiseones" look evil, so they took the Witch male god whom was a God of male fertility and was wild and horned. They made this diety their devil. It worked and that wonderful work done by the ancients was nearly all destroyed.

I dont know much about Vampires, but I will say that Lycans are believed by Native Americans and South American natives. They believe you can get there through different forms of herbal induced meditations.

oooooh- the Templars found a few nonsensical gnostic/pagan fairy tales on Mary Magdalene and a few other Biblical characters and had to be "Taken out". How historical is that? I'm not even Catholic and dislike the papacy but this BS on the "Secret hidden gnostic gospels" sure gives me a rise. Why? Because every single reputable scholar of Christendom knows these texts were bogus and derived from Neo-Platonic sources, but the media in a campaign to slander Christians is attempting to claim these are the "true" gospels (and depending on people's ignorance on the facts) and that we are "hiding" the truth from others. Please...... These texts were common knowledge in Europe (Cathars anyone? Paganism anyone?), the Templars didn't find them. They did practice idol worship in the Temple (or maybe even Islam. Baphomet was a slanderous name given to Muhammed in Europe at that time, and the papacy purposely grossly distorted Islam so they could muster more people for crusades), Philip the fair then used this as an excuse to steal their (Enormous) wealth. Make no mistake on how wealthy the Templars were, they had boats pointing to the Atlantic for instance (trade with natives of other continents? that would be an interesting conspiracy).


[edit on 21-1-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by masamune_of_bevenia

Originally posted by WolfofWar

Originally posted by masamune_of_bevenia

Originally posted by WolfofWar
You should note that Lycans and Werewolves are two seperate things. The term lycan is short hand for lycantrophy, which means a human transforming into a wolf. Where Werewolves are humans that turn into a hybrid wolf-man.


Lycans=Skinwalkers essentially

I dont know where you got that. Lycan or Lycanthrope come from the words lycos meaning wolf and Anthropos meaning man. Lycanthropy Is really a catch all term for Therianthropy or basic human to animal transumtation. Any Human to animal Transmutaion would fall into Therianthropy and more commonly called Lycanthropy, wither or not there was a full transutaion or just a half transmutaion. Also Lycanthropes have been described in mayny shapes and sizes from large wolfs to Wolf men (a more common image due to the success of the early wolfman movies). The "true" Lycanthropes do not transufure Lycanthropy though wounding a victum but they would rather maul and kill there victum. The Original Form of Lycanthropy was beived to be orginaly obtained by wearing a magic animal pelt or striking a deal with Satan. About 80% of whats known about Lycanthropy was made up by Hollywood, due to the lack of any great novels about them. One of the most famous "Lycan" stories is the French story of the Beast of Gevuandan (sp?) which was rumored to be everything from a Liger (half lion half tiger) to a Lycanthrope. The term Werewolf is common term used in the middle ages to describe Lycanthropes

The first time I heard the term Lycan was in the preveiw of the second Underworld movie. I honestly have Mixed feelings about this movie series and I honsetly dont think I will see either.


And my credentials for anyone who want to start a debate are 10 years of Therianthropy study and a thing for Cat girls

[edit on 21-1-2006 by masamune_of_bevenia]

In folklore, Lycanthropy is the ability or power of a human being to undergo transformation into a wolf. The term comes from ancient Greek lykánthropos (λυκάνθρωπος): λύκος, lýkos ("wolf") + άνθρωπος, ánthrōpos ("man"). The word lycanthropy is often used generically for any transformation of a human into animal form, though the precise term for that is technically therianthropy.

en.wikipedia.org...

yeah if you read trhough both articles on Lycantropy and werewolfs no where id thay say they are 2 diffrent things... ones english name and ones a greek name..... btw thanks for turning me on the thouse... never even thought to check wikipedia....

Well, When I was reading it, maybe I just read into it too much, but I interrupted it as being more related to full human to animal transformation, like wendigos or skinwalkers. But I can see where I got confused

Wow Nakash, great post. By the way, thanks for flooding me with all that hard evidence and proof.... oh wait you didn't have a shred of evidence, just the usual rantings of someone who hasn't done the research or info.

Could I just make a request here?

Please don't use the word 'lycans'. Its from a somewhat cheesy movie. No one calls werewolves lycans except the characters from the movie.


I mean, of course, use whatever terms you want, you're free to do whatever you want. But, seriously, lycans?

Blue soldier, you want evidence? How about the fact that Gnostic Gospels were around way before the Templars were even founded. Example: Pistis Sophia circulated in parts of Europe and the middle East before the Templars, it made the same claim as all the Nag Hammadi texts (and the counterparts you CLAIM the Templars found), in fact it's just a summary of them. How about the fact that Valentinus was the founder of this heresy in the first place ? He was preaching this nonsense (after a shipwreck that made him crazy) in the 5TH CENTURY A.D.- Guess the Templars were a half dozen centuries late no? Blue, read those gnostic Gospels and see for yourself that they have nothing to do with Christianity- they are PAGANISM. This is what get's to me- nobody is "hiding" anything, it's just that these texts are so blatantly heretical and ridiculous that they don't even merit being part of the Apocrypha (a useful set of texts which though not "inspired" in any sense shed some light on accepted Canon).

Oh Nygdan, that was exactly what I was thinking. "Lycans", sounds like a Blade movie not a bunch of superstitious inquisitors lol!!



[edit on 23-1-2006 by Nakash]

Wow! When was the last time that I had internet? Well, I've got it in my new apartment, so I'm back reading what few old threads that I had. Thank you for not letting this turn into a religious debate, but it did. That was foreseeable. When enough people get together, there will always be talk of religion and politics. Hollywood has definitely shaped the world of the otherworldly for us, for instance, the word "lycan". Personally, I use the word "lycan" in favor of "werewolf" because I don't like the sounding that the letter "f" makes at the end of the later. I also like the way that Kate says "lycan", she's just not as tempting when she says "werewolf".

I guess it's time to look into some conspiracies involving those shady masons...