Your Opinion Please on Aliens and Abductions? - Skeptics?

I know, I know - you came here with the fervent hope that you would be provided with that elusive piece of evidence - that picture or that recording or SOMETHING that FINALLY proves aliens are real and what they look like.

I've created this thread as a calling to all those out there with a firm grasp on reality - but a realization that something is going on here...and we want to know the truth....

This is how I feel - and please tell me if you feel the same way. Imagine we're all standing together in a pitch black room. You can't see a single thing. Suddenly, you hear whispering, and the person next to you tells you that someone a few rows down just got attacked by something with claws and is now laying on the ground injured. You haven't seen or heard a thing. Suddenly on the opposite side, someone tells you the same thing. Someone a few rows down just got attacked. You start moving and suddenly more and more people are telling the same story, yet another attack - then another and another - people in all different directions, honestly and sincerely relating story after story of what happened to them or someone they know. Maybe you've even felt or seen a glimpse of the ellusive creature yourself...

Suddenly, you've got a group of people in one corner of the dark room who are screaming at the top of their lungs that we're all being attacked by mutant monsters from the third dimension who are hungry for the 3rd virgin child in the room. You've got a group of people in the other corner screaming that there is absolutely nothing at all going on and everyone is lying so just shut the heck up! You've got another group, coming together in the center and talking among themselves to try to figure out what the heck is really going on here???

I'm new to ATS, but not to the field of aliens & ufos. Like many of you I look to the skies and have come to the realization that given the size and mulititude of planetary systems in our universe, to think that nothing is out there would be as egotistical as thinking the earth is the center of the universe and everything rotates around us.

I see this forum sort of like that dark room. You've got these people with all kinds of theories - illuminati, the Galactic Federation, the masons, Project Serpo, Prophet Yahweh, the list goes on and on.... Then you've got the skeptics, god bless them, who take apart those fanatics piece by piece and shred by shred. It is the presence of skeptics that made me decide to join this thread - skeptics keep a place real. They attempt to hold back the insane rantings of people with a shaky handle on reality.

And finally, you've got the third group, and I'm very happy to see so many of them here. Looking for answers based in reality - whatever that reality may turn out to be - even if it isn't the one accepted by society at large.

My question to you - to the skeptics and to the "searchers of truth" here in this forum. Are we any closer? Have we gotten anywhere?

I've been following the trail, as many of you have, for many years... Gone down the Illumati, Masons, even the Galactic Federation roads - only to find that at the end of every path there is nothing solid or tangible - but there does seem to be "something" going on. It's hard to describe - maybe some of you can describe it - but there is a common thread woven in the middle of most of these theories - almost interconnecting them... The illumati theory seems to have a ring of some truth to it... and so many abduction stories are too real and too honestly told by good people to be all false....and many of the ex-military "whistleblowers" who have given statements tend to back up many parts of each others stories - or even seem to back up stories that I've read of individual abductees who have told their stories in the most obscure places. Many of these people never had any interest in ufos or aliens before they were abducted, so had little to no knowlege of the facts of those other stories.

So the question is - many of us do feel that there is something going on - that there really is something in this dark room with us - but are we any closer today than we were 5, 10, 15 years ago to finding the truth? Or is this just the way it will be for the foreseeable future...

Thanks to ATS for this fantastic forum - thanks to the believers and the skeptics alike for tearing apart every story fact for fact and being never-ending in their search for truth...

All the best,
-rdube02







[edit on 13-1-2006 by rdube02]

Hi rdube02,

Could you please change the title. It's far too misleading.

And please don't use full caps in a title.

Thanks.

[edit on 13-1-2006 by John bull 1]

You need to change the title, it waste members time looking at your post which contains no proof of anything. The only reason I viewed your post is because of the title.

I personally do not believe in Aliens and don't read posts concerning this issue because I believe it to foolish to think there are Aliens after nearly 60 years of bogus claims and not "ONE" piece of solid evidence.

Every photo is suspect, no proof whatsoever.
It is one of the biggest con games perpetrated on the gullible shepeople of the world .(sheep people, being led to slaughter)

This thread is misleading - your just babling on about things that make this entire section!
Id say this is more probably a trollish attempt to hijack everybody and see how many readings you get.....
Please try again :-

A few ideas.... you could say that film stars are greys using somekind of face changing technology, short and sweet.

You could ask if television is infact brain washing people/non beleivers about the posibility of aliens being real - ask yourself why people who didnt beleive not so long ago, now seem to favor such a possibilty...after all so much these days on tv is alien invasion stuff...

in essence - lots of waffle but no true content. - sorry fella

Originally posted by John bull 1
Hi rdube02,

Could you please change the title. It's far too misleading.

And please don't use full caps in a title.

Thanks.

[edit on 13-1-2006 by John bull 1]

Thanks for feedback - I've updated the title.

To the previous responses - all from full-blown skeptics - I appreciate your time. I'm trying to get an idea of how many full skeptics there are on this site as opposed to those who are simply cautious in their choice to believe. So far we've got 2 or 3 outright full fledged non-believers. Which is fine - by the way - I'm not sensitive, feel free to blast me or call me names, just please offer your side of it too. Just because a skeptic isn't flexible in their beliefs doesn't mean I'm not - I actually like hearing other opinions and value the views of others as much as I value my own.

Thanks,
-rdube02

[edit on 13-1-2006 by rdube02]

I think aliens and UFO's have no room for skeptics.... When it comes to the vastness of the universe, we're merely a molecule of sand on a beach the size of jupiter times 10,000.

If the new planet finding instruments find an abundance of planets and 5-10% of those planets exist in the "life band" orbit, I think we will see a lot more people admiting that aliens exist. I believe they exist but I can't fathom how strange the galaxy might be if it is full of different aliens that have evolved at different times. How do space traveling aliens, that are the "Amazon natives of space" able to exist with your more advanced "Euro-aliens"...and that still isn't probably a broad enough description of the technical separation that may exist. How does everyone get along without certain aliens dominating? Or maybe they don't get along?

Abductions...not sure on that. I would like to hear from someone who has taken '___' and also been abducted. Is it the same? Why are aliens (more specifically: greys) seen when '___' is taken?

I would not call myself a skeptic. Just someone who wants to know the truth.

Are we closer to knowing the truth?

Nope. None at all. The best evidences so far are the admittance of UFO by official govt sources from Russia, Mexico and only a few more handful of countries and the information is:- it is unidentified flying objects, not theirs but who the pilots of such crafts are still unknown.

Many skeptics demand the truth, nothing but the truth but i doubt if they will accept the truth if it is shove right under their nose. Truth is only a perception of the mind, and as we all know, we have different perception on what we see based solely on what we believe. For example, a chalk is just a chalk to some, to others, it may be a work of art, limestone, $$$ opportunity,etc, a difference of views and no 2 humans can agree fully to something.

Therefore, there is a need to come into agreement first on what basically constitutes 'truth', so as to subject a sighting to a comprehensive test to determine the veracity of the object. Influential witnesses? fake proof cameras and softwares?

As long as we dont have such measures, skeptics will readily thrash ANY sighting as a hoax, even if they are real sightings and we will forever be denied of the truth as long as those in power who have the means to give better recorded evidence has no desire to disclose their findings.

Genuine Abductees:- I pity such people, for very often it is their words against the world. Shunned by others as hoaxers, their tales copied by opportunitists to con others, and ridiculed as druggies, they have no other recourse but to live with such memories burning in their minds as long as they live.

Therefore there is an immediate need to educate to mankind on what to do should an abduction occurs. Perhaps, a token from the experience, a phrase from the abductors on the planets which can be verified through astronomy, etc..

Disclosure project:- We have seen the power of UN and it leaves much to be desired - without power and riddled with neopotism of cushy and unnecessary jobs. In such an absence, it would ideally be left to the representive of people - the govt to appoint an agency to handle such disclosures. Unfortunately, we have seen the power of money and the influence it could do to sway opinions and truths, there seems little likehood the truth will be known should such truths conflicts with the ideals or operations of the wealthy.

Our only last hope and recourse is the internet to force the issue of disclosure. Alone we may not be able to achieve anything, but combined and in one voice, we may be a force to be reckon with. Those who do not favour disclosure are definately only a minority, even though powerful, wealthy, cunning, seemingly benovelent but toughly ruthless to protect their rights, and certainly not stupid to sit idly by and wait for us to act as one.

....

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
Therefore there is an immediate need to educate to mankind on what to do should an abduction occurs. Perhaps, a token from the experience, a phrase from the abductors on the planets which can be verified through astronomy, etc..

That's a good point, and I don't even know if that would work. Look at Betty Hill - she was able to draw out a star map that the aliens had shown her giving the location of their home planet. At the time (the 60's) astronomers could not duplicate that star map with any known planetary system. I think it took until the Hubble telescope was available where the planetary system and the matching star map was available. Did it bring belief for her and her story? Maybe among a very small community of the population, but definitely not the population at large...

You make some excellent points - it really is hard to "prove" the truth, even when it is the truth...

-rdube02

I consider myself a true skeptic. of the fence-sitter type.

I'm sure there is some type of phenomena occuring that warrants research & investigation, whether physical or psychological, or to use the words of Dr Lyall Watson some form of "Supernature" is something I don't think anybody truely knows yet.

(Supernature, rather than Supernatural refers to the school of thought that what we consider paranormal is just a form of science for which we have no current understanding).

As to visitation, I still can't imagine any mundane reasons for an advanced technological race to expend the energy required to visit us. If it turns out that Sarfatti and his ilk are new pioneers of a scientific renaissance rather than academic heretics then I'll probably re-evaluate this.


Anglo.

It is interesting that he asks for both points of view. That is a plus. Somebody went looking for the star map drawn by Betty Hill. You need to check this person out. Not Betty Hill, but the people who claimed to have found it. What other kinds of claims has this person made before? Get my point? I've never checked it out. So I may be wrong.

I take abduction cases with a grain of salt. I would put abduction cases in line with a very religious/faithful person getting a stigmata. A person of devout belief can bring on their own physical lesions and bleed.
With abductions I see it the same way. There is an overriding, openess/willingness to be taken in. It doesn't have to be fervant belief, but the acceptance that such an event can occur.

I've read people's account here and these personal accounts are more about a willingness/openess to such an event. They are believers. Their accounts read more like a fortunate event topped with mystery and intrigue. A form of initiation.

EDIT The Hill case is one of those cases that defies complete explanation. Gazrok did a pretty solid review of this case which is well worth reading. I'll also mention that in interviews with Betty Hill, she noted the amount of falsified abduction cases in the wake of her and Barneys' experience. The Hills did not go about seeking publicity.



[edit on 16-1-2006 by nullster]

Originally posted by grasshopper
It is interesting that he asks for both points of view. That is a plus. Somebody went looking for the star map drawn by Betty Hill. You need to check this person out. Not Betty Hill, but the people who claimed to have found it. What other kinds of claims has this person made before? Get my point? I've never checked it out. So I may be wrong.

Thanks for your response. I actually prefer responses from skeptics because I find that they are more grounded...if you know what I mean. I guess deep down maybe I'm a skeptic - but personally see a pattern that I believe points to something real. I just wish that the "loonies" (for want of a better word) wouldn't muddy up the water so much.

In regards to the star map - this is Betty Hill's map drawn in 1964:



And here is the real starmap discovered by Marjorie Fish in 1969:



Which of course is of Zeta Reticuli - the system where most "believers" claim the aliens come from. I posted the images from paranormalnews.com, although you can find the comparison of these star maps all over the internet.

And I was wrong, it wasn't the invention of Hubble, it was in 1969 when the Gliese Star Catalog came out, that the two stars were found to fit the map. Here's an exerpt from the article on paranormalnews.com:

"A quote from the December 1974 issue of Astronomy Magazine reads: "The pattern discovered by Marjorie Fish has an uncanny resemblance to the map drawn by Betty Hill. The stars are mostly ones that we would visit if we were exploring from Zeta Reticuli. The travel patterns make sense."

Does this make a believer out of me? Not 100% - but it does make one wonder how in the world this woman, who has always been an upstanding respectable honest individual, could draw up a star map that wouldn't be discovered for years....

This is just one good example of why I just can't say I don't believe we are being visitied regularly... On the other hand, I can't say I believe either - I guess the jury is still out. Although I love to see if others are able to dismantle these clues or "patterns" as I call them. Many times - they can't...

-rdube02



[edit on 16-1-2006 by rdube02]

One thing to bear in mind though rdube, is that there could be other explanations for this.

For one, read up on Carl Jung's theories of "Collective Consciouness".

IMO these creatures are not extraterrestrials, even though they may be residing on other planets. Their origins are from in and around earth. They have been around since before man, before the earth was formed.

They are fallen angels and demons, spiritual beings with vast knowledge and abilities from a higher plane of existance. Demons can possess bodies may they be animal, insect or human. Fallen angels can take any form and appear as a relative of yours, if they wish.

Originally posted by Ycon
IMO these creatures are not extraterrestrials, even though they may be residing on other planets. Their origins are from in and around earth. They have been around since before man, before the earth was formed.

They are fallen angels and demons, spiritual beings with vast knowledge and abilities from a higher plane of existance. Demons can possess bodies may they be animal, insect or human. Fallen angels can take any form and appear as a relative of yours, if they wish.

That's a theory that I've considered as well Ycon... considering that there's so much supernatural activity witnessed by so many people such as house hauntings and such... If one accepts that there are beings from another dimension which can slip in and out of our dimension at will - then the theory that these types of beings could appear as ghosts, angels, or aliens aren't that far fetched... Trying the Ouiji board, you get a sense of how real these beings could be - although that could also be explained by the theory of collective consciousness as well...

Ycon - do you have any personal experiences that you could share that made you draw these conclusions...?

-rdube02

I don't have any personal experiences with demons or aliens. I have been researching this subject for years and have come to those conclusions. To me, it's the only conclusion that makes sense.

Originally posted by nullster
I take abduction cases with a grain of salt. I would put abduction cases in line with a very religious/faithful person getting a stigmata. A person of devout belief can bring on their own physical lesions and bleed.
With abductions I see it the same way. There is an overriding, openess/willingness to be taken in. It doesn't have to be fervant belief, but the acceptance that such an event can occur.

grasshopper replies: I take what I hear by people who investigate ufo cases with a grain of salt. If they aren't some kind of counterintelligence then they are somebody looking for fame much of the time. Many people looking for fame are "believers". Somebody comes along and claims to have discovered the star system spoken of by Betty Hill then you should take that person with just as much a grain of salt as the person who claims to be abducted. I don't think your other statement is correct either. I don't think most people who are abducted wished for such an experience. I think there are a lot of people who don't get abducted and who claim to have been abducted wish for such an experience. They don't know what they're asking for.

Originally posted by rdube02


Thanks for your response. I actually prefer responses from skeptics because I find that they are more grounded...if you know what I mean. I guess deep down maybe I'm a skeptic - but personally see a pattern that I believe points to something real. I just wish that the "loonies" (for want of a better word) wouldn't muddy up the water so much.


grasshopper replies: they are counterintelligence. If someone says there are germans at the north pole then you'll shortly see a story about germans at the south pole. I can spot these guys pretty quick. That's because they have done this sort of thing to me for a very long time. Many times what they say, the exact opposite is the truth. Other times they take a few things, or maybe one fact, and change it just a little and still the rest of it from you. It is hard to say that they are with the government or not. But I'm certain the government knows the kinds of things, like eavesdropping, that they are doing and do nothing about it. The media is full of these kinds of people. You are never given the real truth if you listen to shows like Coast to Coast. The only kinds of guests that appear on this show are fakes and usually into eavesdropping. It's just one hoax after another with these guys. There is some good info on Linda Howe's website, "Earthfiles.com" It costs money. And even she doesn't seem to spot the counterintel guys and posts there stuff as well. I don't know anything about CointelPro.

I would take an uneducated guess and suggest there are probably just as many "fake" intelligence guys out there who really aren't with the government but who pose as government guys in order to try to intimidate people and get information out of them. Probably just as many fake government spies as there are fake abductees. Just like the fake abductees who wish they were abducted the fake government spies wish they were with the government. Whether they work for the government or not they actually wish they did and are quite willing to share whatever info they might find with the government like good little patriots. They invade our privacy and eavesdrop on us in what is probably highly illigal activities but are tolerated by the government because possibly the government thinks they can get good info from them from free? Who knows. The thing to do is to feed them false info in my opinion.



Which of course is of Zeta Reticuli - the system where most "believers" claim the aliens come from. I posted the images from paranormalnews.com, although you can find the comparison of these star maps all over the internet.


grasshopper replies: Such a conclusion was confirmed by Ptaah who was one of Billy Meier's contacts. Such a statement by Billy Meier or Ptaah would almost make me think that they aren't coming from Zeta Reticuli. These guys confirm lots of our beliefs and conclusions that turn out to be untrue. That's not a knock. But it does seem to be a pattern with them.





Does this make a believer out of me? Not 100% - but it does make one wonder how in the world this woman, who has always been an upstanding respectable honest individual, could draw up a star map that wouldn't be discovered for years....

This is just one good example of why I just can't say I don't believe we are being visitied regularly... On the other hand, I can't say I believe either - I guess the jury is still out. Although I love to see if others are able to dismantle these clues or "patterns" as I call them. Many times - they can't...

-rdube02
grasshopper replies:
I agree that we are being given clues. And the reason for such clues is never obvious, at least at first. Some day we may understand the reason why we are being led to believe that they come from Zeta Reticuli. It could turn out that we go looking for these guys and in the process find another world that is inhabitable. Something like this could of actually been the reason. On the other hand, it could be some sort of trap. Or it could be that they want us to think that that is where they are from because in our way of thinking that would seem a logical explanation that would make sense to us and therefore be believeable. When in actuality they are from somewhere else. I don't think the aliens are really going to tell us how to find them.

[edit on 16-1-2006 by rdube02]

[edit on 16-1-2006 by grasshopper]

Grasshopper,

I do understand where you're coming from. It's hard to know who or what to believe, especially with all of the hoaxters. However, if we get into our minds that EVERYTHING could be a lie and, and any person could either be a government spy, or wannabe spy.... then there is no way for us to find the truth because everything could be a lie. It's almost a paranoid scitzophrenic mind set where everyone is out to get you and everyone is spying on you...

Could the aliens really have let Betty Hill know where they're from? Why not? It's not like she has the ability to get there. We still have a hard time getting to our own moon, let alone an alien planet light years away. She asked them where they were from and they showed her. I can think of very few reasons why they would lie to her.

As far as the government - who knows what in the world they are up to - I beleive you there. Just reading about all of the counterintelligence they used during the cold war - leads one to distrust all information coming from the government. I agree with you 100% there. I read the news every day and whenever I read "a highly place administration offical stated...." and the rest of the sentence to me can not be taken at face value. It's either a lie or a half-lie to meet some agenda.

Some great points there...my question is, how do we know what to believe and what not to believe then? And who to believe....there has to be some criteria of determining who is lying and who isn't...

-rdube02