The history leading up to current events in the Middle East

OK, after my flawed attempt at starting another thread (that shall remain nameless) I thought I might try a more even handed approach to this forum

As the forum deals with the War On Terrorism and the War On Terrorism is currently (largely) being fought in the middle east, I thought I might add a link that will hopefully shed light on why we have such problems:

en.wikipedia.org...

This link points to an unbiased resource that desribes the events leading up to today, or more specifically with the Fuel Crisis of the 1970's but will possibly help to give an idea of why America would even want to be in the Middle East today. Given that most people believe that the WMD reason is total BS and that the US is really after oil, this link will hopefully present why that might be considered important by America. Please note that this article also tries to provide a point of view from the Arab members of OPEC and that neither side is over-represented

I urge anyone who reads this thread to follow the link and post any other link that provides an unbiased view of the current situation here. Or perhaps, more specifically, it provides reasons for why the US might want to interfere with the Middle East and thereby anger people who would then launch terrorist strikes in retaliation for US interference. Both sides of the story

Thank you


ps. I hope people don't think this thread is not relevant to the forum. I think the history leading up to the war on terror is imprtant and worthy of consideration

[edit on 11/1/2006 by HumanBean]

Originally posted by HumanBean
This link points to an unbiased resource

Perhaps you should read this first:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wikipedia, just one edit away from an agenda.

[edit on 11/1/2006 by Mirthful Me]

OK, I've tried to compile a synopsis of events leading up to 9/11 and the birth of modern terrorism. If anyone has anything they feel should be added, or any corrections to make (including spelling) then please let me know and I will makes the changes

* World War II - The UN (or it's predecessor) creates the state of Israel, displacing Palestinians from Jerusalem
* Arab world is angered that some countries have had land taken from it to give to the Jewish
* Syria and Egypt invade Israel
* Some countires help supply Israel which angers other Arab countries who view it as just getting their land back and regaining access to Jerusalem
* Most Arab countries view America's policies in the Middle East as being arrogant and overbearing, including the very low price of oil that makes Western oil companies a lot of money whilst providing little to the countries that actually produce the oil
* Arab countires band together as a sub-group within OPEC to dramatically raise Oil prices and therefore exert pressure on the US and other western counties

Fast forward to only a few years ago

* Many people view various betrayals by the US government (such as pulling out of Afghanistan and leaving them to the mercy of the Russians), and interference within Palestine as unwelcome. They decide that this is unfair and that the only way to get the attention of the people who vote these leaders in is to directly attack such people, hence the birth of modern terrorism


Naturally the issue is more complicated than that so any (positive) contribution is welcome. Thank you

[edit on 11/1/2006 by HumanBean]

Perhaps you should read this first

Well, I read it through and thought it was a very good article (the link I provided). I didn't think it had any agenda other than trying to explain a situation to the reader from both points of view

Originally posted by HumanBean
Many people view various betrayals by the US government (such as pulling out of Afghanistan and leaving them to the mercy of the Russians), and interference within Palestine as unwelcome. They decide that this is unfair and that the only way to get the attention of the people who vote these leaders in is to directly attack such people, hence the birth of modern terrorism

The 'birth' of modern terrorism predates Soviet-Afghanistan conflict...

most 20th century terrorism stems from the post colonial problems of the early post ww2 period becoming embroiled with the cold war...

...localised conflicts with ex-empires or intercommunual ones within territories formerly owned by empires became the new playgorund of cold war indirect conflict.. hence why terrorist groups could rely on weapons and support from both superpowers...

all this 'modern' terrorism is just a hang up from this situation which has been hijacked by the more conservative western govts in order to have a new enemy since the demise of the USSR (Anti American/Israeli terrorism has been going on long before 9/11, the WTC attacks were a particularly extreme, one-off example of this phenomenon).

Q

Originally posted by Qoelet
The 'birth' of modern terrorism predates Soviet-Afghanistan conflict...

most 20th century terrorism stems from the post colonial problems of the early post ww2 period becoming embroiled with the cold war...

...localised conflicts with ex-empires or intercommunual ones within territories formerly owned by empires became the new playgorund of cold war indirect conflict.. hence why terrorist groups could rely on weapons and support from both superpowers...

all this 'modern' terrorism is just a hang up from this situation which has been hijacked by the more conservative western govts in order to have a new enemy since the demise of the USSR (Anti American/Israeli terrorism has been going on long before 9/11, the WTC attacks were a particularly extreme, one-off example of this phenomenon).

Q

Cool. Can you provide this in a point form that I can slot in to the above post? Any supporting evidence would be great too (despite the fact that I know you're right, others may not)

Thanks

Well i'm presently sitting here at work trying to look busy, but when i get home I'll post some book titles and a few links to things that cover this period and topic... it's all a bit all over the place (as much of it is my disseration material from 2002) in my spare room at present..

mmm lots of paper!

Some good papers can be found at The Conflcit Studies Research Centre although this stuff is quite Soviet/Russia/E.Europe/C.E.Asia specific... but there is some archived stuff on Africa...

but a good way of examining this question is to look in depth at the original conflicts that are now viewed as 'fronts' in the war on terror like :
Chechnya / Transcaucasia
Sudan
Pakistan
Phillippines
Afghanistan

and the TONNES of stuff on the web about the MiddleEast...

PLEASE NOTE: These sites are mainly picked off the top of my head... some are really in depth and some are just overviews of conflict histories which serve as a rough guide to further research...

Q

Another very interesting angle to look at in ME conflict is the massive Nazi connection influence.Often overlooked to.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini was very close to Hitler and head of the SS Muslim Hanzor division he insisted on playing a big role in the Genocide of the Jews, He was the Uncle of Yasser Arafat.
A little research soon links this man and his followers quickly and easily to Sadaam Hussein, The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden --- Nazism and its ideals live to this day, just a new name IslamoNazism .

Good starting link here ...
www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com...

Actually this quote is very important in your research i think ....

Read the timelines of TELL CHILDREN THE TRUTH and you will discover that
Before Amin Al Husseini, there was no Pan-Islamic Jihad against the West and the non-Muslims.
Before Amin Al Husseini, there was no hatred between the Jews and the Arabs.
Why did Osama Bin Ladin say in his speech on Al Jizira that this Jihad
has been lasting for 80 years?
Because 80 years ago, Amin Al Husseini, the man who officialized Islamic hate, declared Holy War on the West and the Jews.
Bin Ladin and many other terror chiefs are only believers in Amin Al Husseini, who have dedicated their life to his ideology.
www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com...

Pretty Scary to think that it can be pointed back to one man like that hey ?
And there lays our present problem, we are fighting Islamonazis that have been preparing for 80 years ...

Now hang on a minute...

you cannot blame the whole thing on one Nazi sympathiser...

and I'm not entirely sure that Arab anti-semetic figtures like this one owe genuine alliegance to the periodic western movements that they ally themselves to for the sake of expedience...

Just as in the Cold War, there were powers who's vaguely connecting goals made them attractive to lobbying for support... all that was required was lipservice to ideology and a committment to using weapons/money in line with the similar goals of that power...

Look at Afghanistan... would you say that Osama is an Islamo-Reaganite? Because he happily accdepted US support.. much in the same way as your man did off Hitler..

Compare it if you will... to the anti-colonial struggles and civil wars in Africa... all one had to do to get money from the USSR was to have 'People's' or 'Worker's' in your name... or just a really long acronym (pref with Lenin in there somewhere) and wear a red beret.

Didn't make these movements really 'Soviet' movements.. unlike ones with proper Moscow patronage (like in Mozambique for example)...

nah... this is all too simple

Q

[edit on 11-1-2006 by Qoelet]

[edit on 11-1-2006 by Qoelet]

Its not 100pc that simple but keep searching this line its truly amazing.

search " banna nazi "

oh oh oh you have to read this article written by the Lawyer who launched 1 trillion dollar lawsuit against the Saudis after 9/11
amazing!!

It always seems a little strange to have an Irish-Catholic talking about Yom Ha Shoah.

I had an unusual education in the Holocaust. When I was working for the Attorney General, I was assigned to do the classified research about the Holocaust, so I went underground to a little town called Suitland, Maryland, right outside Washington, D.C. and that's where the US Government buries its secrets - - literally.

There are twenty vaults underground and each vault is one acre in size. Anyone see the movie “Raiders of the Lost Ark”? The last scene of that movie is what the underground vaults are really like, only not as organized as they are in the movie. And in those underground vaults I discovered something horrible.

I learned that many of the Nazis that I had been assigned to prosecute were on the CIA payroll, but the CIA didn't know they were Nazis because the British Intelligence Service had lied to them. What the British Intelligence Service didn't know was that their liar was Kim Philby, the Soviet communist double agent -- a little scandal of the Cold War. But our State Department swept it all under the rug and allowed the Nazis to stay in America until I was stupid enough to go public with it.
frontpagemag.com...

seriously you MUST read this it will answer alot !!

I probably should of made a whole new thread with all this, last time i made a Terrorist/Islamonazi thread it near turned to WW3 lol.

If you dance with the devil you will eventually answer to the piper.


[edit on 083131p://55018 by NumberCruncher]

Originally posted by NumberCruncher
Its not 100pc that simple but keep searching this line its truly amazing.

search " vanna nazi "

oh oh oh you have to read this article written by the Lawyer who launched 1 trillion dollar lawsuit against the Saudis after 9/11
amazing!!

What's the link to it? The one below it didn't seem to work

seriously you MUST read this it will answer alot !!

Read what, the lawsuit one or the other one?

I probably should of made a whole new thread with all this, last time i made a Terrorist/Islamonazi thread it near turned to WW3 lol.

Ha! You and me both

Fixed link, yes maybe start with Lawsuit one it will go on to tell you loads ! its answers alot about the age of Terrorism we live in.

I can never work out how to break peoples quotes down into seperate boxes like you just did, is there a button?

When you reply to someone, their text will be like this in the edit box:

[quote]blah blah blah[/quote]

All you have to do is change it to this:

[quote]blah[/quote]
Your own text
[quote]blah[/quote]
Your own text
[quote]blah[/quote]
Your own text

The curly braces are actually square brackets. Get what I mean?

BTW, I still don't know how to find the lawsuit article. The link goes to an article about nazis


[edit on 11/1/2006 by HumanBean]

[edit on 11/1/2006 by HumanBean]

Yes , got it now, thanks alot.

Now heres another quote from that article to help motivate you people to go read it

And we have to end the evil in this world. We have to recognize that al Qaeda simply didn't spring up on its own. The evil route was Nazism. The al Qaeda Doctrine is the same as the Arab Nazis held. They hated Jews, they hate democracy, and they hate Westerners for Western culture. Al Qaeda is nothing more than the religious expression of Arab Fascism. We allowed this branch of the Nazi trunk to survive, to flourish, and it has come back to haunt us.

We must do a better job. Look at these children. They are our legacy. If we are to keep our children safe, we must teach them the lessons of the past. Every generation should know what these candles mean. Not only that one of the greatest tragedies in the history of the world really happened, but the evil that caused it -- Nazism -- survived because we didn't fight hard enough. We didn't finish the job

frontpagemag.com...

*whistles* Man, that is some heavy stuff

[edit on 11-1-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

You dont think it could be slightly biased? Islamonazi? Are you kidding? The middle east has been stepped on stomped on raped of it recourses and you try and link those poor people with Nazi?

We are in the middle east because the Partnersip For the New American Century and its Miltary Industrial backers and Oil company backers wanted a new enemy because our old one, (the u.s.s.r.) was defeted. War is profit and the profiteers of war are making the agenda. Al-ciada is nothing but the CIA operating in order to keep the American people in fear.

"Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall

... that whatever like-minded links between anti-Jewish sentiment of these extremist Muslims and the Nazis, the fact is that you would be hard pressed to find Wahabiism properly reconcilable with ACTUAL National Socialist doctrine. Aside from disliking Western democracy, hating Jews and Christianity, and being willing to kill people on the say-so of half-baked ideas, there is little actual ideological similarity...

For starters: The Nazis largely viewed religion as effeminate and weak, and would probably have only found the 'war' element of the 'holy war' idea interesting. Largely speaking, anything that preached any kind of mercy, compassion or charity was laughable to to the Nazis. More pertinent to the discussion is that religion looks to a higher, non-earthly power as the supreme source of law and moral guidance (even wacky violent Islamic movements). This is TOTALLY at odds with Nazi ideology, as this questions the idea of the supremacy of the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer should be the sole inspiration for the will of the Volkgemeinschaft, executive direction of, and the legislation of the state. National Socialist doctrine was so strong on this point, that the Nazis even re-invented the traditional Northen German Protestant church in the communual sense, replacing the actual religion with a Nazi ritual cult, glorifying war and the will of the Fuhrer (bibles replaced with Mein Kampf, Swords instead of crucifixes etc.).

Another irreconcilable point is the basic symantics of Nazis rejecting theology and the Wahabiis rejecting ideology... it's a minor point, but one I think needs to be made. No matter how wacky Osama and his chums may be, in theory it is still inspired by the will of Allah, how they see the Quoranic texts, Shariah etc.

National Socialist ideology is arguabley quite distinct even from Italian Fascism, even though the former being earlier in it's formation gave it's name thus to that end of the political spectrum, even though I think that this is okay, as one could also argue that National Socialism is a more in-depth and specific manifestation of Fascism, which can be viewed as a larger phenomenon, related more to political structural elements (statism)rather than ideological ones. (hmm... one whole sentence... nevermind I push on!).

A absolutely core tenant of National Socialist ideology centres itself around the eugenic ideas and racialism of the 18th and 19th century. People like Spencer, Robineaux and others, who believed in the inherent superiority of the white Indo-European peoples over the rest (with the exception of the Irish for some reason, probably down to the percieved 'eugenic cause' of the Irish being largely poor and oppressed.. e.g. because they were 'naturally inferior' despite being indo-European) shaped much Nazi ideology with their 19th Century pseudo-science. Interestingly enough, Winston Churchill was a fan of Spencer and Robineaux, as he believed (earlier in his career you understand..) that the poor of Britian were bringing down the nation as they were 'weakening the stock' of the nation and actually advocated forced sterilisation of the 'feeble minded', i.e. poor single women with dependants and their offspring (a practice that was actually executed in post war Sweden!!!!) for the sake of the UK. But back to the Nazis...

... the importance of this racialist heritage is that is is the cornerstone of many other core National Socialist beliefs. It guarantees the need for continuing the pseudo-science of eugenics and racial selection, as well as bolstering the need for archealogical evidence of 'aryan' superiority (hence the faked articfacts and evidence of early advanced Germanic civilisations)... both things ardently pursued by the Nazi regiume. But this is just the micky mouse stuff... a world under Nazi tutelage, the total destruction of the inferior Jewish peoples and their 'untermenchen' counterparts (I need not list them... but it would probably have eventually included the Arabs once the Nazis had won the war) with the remaining kept for slave labour to rebuild the post-war Reich. The supposed genetic superiority of the German people and their Frankish/Angle/Saxon/Norse/Jute counterparts would allow the colonisation of the East (d'ya think they would stop at the middle-East or Caucuses if they had the power?) and is one of their ideological justifications for continual expansion, similar to the ideas of the Roman Republic shortly before the Caesers.

Quick note:
The wahabbiis do not see ethnicity as an issue, as theirs is a theological movement, we could all become nutty wahabbis with their blessing...



The statism of Fascism does greatly apply to National Socialism, although not in the Corporate Sydicalist rip-offs of Mussolini's fascists, but of a more complex totalitarian system with the Reichs Chancellory at the head. The system (which we have to say loosely, as in reality it was quite chaotic) was designed both the adapt to the continually shifting will of the Fuhrer (as his word literally became law by the middle of the war) whilst maintaining that no major concentrations of power that would ever challange the Chancellory. This element to Nazi statism is actually borrowed from Stalin funnily enough, as an Autarkic war economy system with political power diffused between rival departments and industrial complexes. The unifying idea of the system was the will of the fuhrer and the cult of total war (hence why despite the chaos, great technological progress in warfare and industrial production was achieved despite bitter personal power plays and bloody rivalries).

Despite a 'getting back to the country/nature' element of National Socialism, harking back to a bygone age (simialr to wahabiism's fixation with going back to middle ages civilisation), a key factor of Nazi ideology was harnessing the productive forces of capital for the collective good of the volk, as well as the advancement of the German will over their enemies. This could only be achieved by class harmony (hence getting rid of all those pesky reds, trade unionists and other class agitators), the peasant in the country, the worker in the towns and the capitalist in the office complex, all coming together under the leadership and inspirationo of the Fuhrer in order to surpass all other nations. In reality, this simply meant that the bosses of the State had yet another higher echalon of power to answer to, but as nazi ideology guarenteed their place within the status quo (as long as they all worked towards the aspirations of the volk, as imbodied by the Fuhrer) the profits could but only be a benefit to the state, and themselves.

ohh.. I'm getting a bit tired now...

...and my boss clearly can see I'm not working...

okay... point being... if you can reconcile this with Wahabiiism, I'd be very surprised... many jumped on the Nazi bandwagon because it suited their political/economic/military needs... some like old Admiral Horthy were pseudo fascists, others were simple opportunists... doesnt make them all national socialists...

It takes more than a salut and a rabid hatred of Jews to make a nazi... and while I accept the links between early 20th C radical wahhabiism and the Nazis, I don;t see them as formative or particularly significant, just convenient...

Ask Osama what he thinks of the above and let me know...

Q


PS For those who will go 'aww where are your links blah blah...' go read any booklist for a college political philosophy course... Nazi ideology is a greatly talked about subject with much material... go read...

[edit on 11-1-2006 by Qoelet]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You dont think it could be slightly biased? Islamonazi? Are you kidding? The middle east has been stepped on stomped on raped of it recourses and you try and link those poor people with Nazi?

The Author of that article is John Loftus, i doubt that he is bias, but you sound like you have made your mind up already, more power to ya i say.

It is possible that John Loftus may know more intelligence secrets than anyone alive. As a former Justice Department prosecutor, Loftus once held some of the highest security clearances in the world, with special access to NATO Cosmic, CIA codeword, and Top Secret Nuclear files. As a private attorney, he works without charge to help hundreds of intelligence agents obtain lawful permission to declassify and publish the hidden secrets of our times. He is the author of four history books, three of which have been made into films, two were international best sellers, and one was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize. In 2002, the SHOWTIME channel will begin filming “SECRET WARS,” the pilot of a television series based on Loftus’ life story, starring Jon Voight and Aidan Quinn.
www.john-loftus.com...

Qoelet - Im still researching alot of this, but for a fair demostration of the family tree ...

Wahhibi Islam > Muslim Brotherhood > Uniting with Nazi Third Reich > Arab League
good starting point is here
www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com...


Nazism and Extremist Islam imho was the perfect Marriage, and i fail to see there ever being a divorce.