Hamas Claims the Spanish Town of Seville for Islam

Originally posted by noisy_brit_kid

I agree with some of your points but,
you have got to remember, its not ALL muslims that want this,it is a small and elite minority that promote it, and,im not defending hamas' actions, far from it but,it was the palastinians lands before it 'became' isreal

It was Israel's land, under the Jews, before it became Palestine.
It was then Christian land before the muslims invaded and took it over.
The Christians launched the Crusades and reclaimed Palestine and kept it for hundreds of years before the muslims invaded again and retook it.

It was then owned by the Turks, then the British and now the Jews again.

The muslims don't want to give up any of the land that they conqured from other people , be it Palestine, Al Andalus, Constantinople, Cyprus, etc...

Originally posted by noisy_brit_kidyou have got to remember, its not ALL muslims that want this,it is a small and elite minority that promote it, and,im not defending hamas' actions, far from it but,it was the palastinians lands before it 'became' isreal

true, not all muslims agree with groups like hamas and the comments made that paint a broad picture of all of the islamic faith subscribing to the same beliefs are wrong.

in 614 the persian invasion took place and Jews were allowed to control Jerusalem. In 617 the policy was changed and jews were expelled from the city

In 638 Caliph Umar conquers Jerusalem and Jews are permitted to return under islam.

so, they took it away from the jews, which, in effect, means they weren't there first.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

True its been exchanged multipt the isrealies really could have been nicer to the palestinians when taking over their land because now, NO-ONE can positivley commit a pilgrimage to jeruselam, which is very sad. I just think the isrealie goverment could show a bit more tact.


P.S-Sorry if my history a bit foggy-im only in the 2nd year of secondary school.

[edit on 6-1-2006 by noisy_brit_kid]

Originally posted by noisy_brit_kid

P.S-Sorry if my history a bit foggy-im only in the 2nd year of secondary school.

Well your pretty dammed smart for such a young kid, just keep debating in ATS and you'll get alot smarter.

Isreal always seems to be the bad-guy in European history books, while the Palestineans are made out as the victims. The Palestineans violent actions have put them in this position....their pretty much walled in like mad-Dogs, cause nobody wants them in their country.

If you act like a Mad-Dog, society will lock you up like a Mad-Dog....its that simple.

Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus


If you act like a Mad-Dog, society will lock you up like a Mad-Dog....its that simple.

Maximu§

And eventualy that mad dog will be put to sleep.

Originally posted by noisy_brit_kid
True its been exchanged multipt the isrealies really could have been nicer to the palestinians when taking over their land because

when reclaiming the land that was once theirs?

Incidentally, so that you can understand how the two sides think, take a look at what happened in gaza when Israel took over. they left the mosques alone, built temples, houses and greenhouses. when they turned over the land to the palestinians, they left the greenhouses intact so that the palestinians could use them to grow crops.

the palestinians burned the jewish temples to the ground and looted the greenhouses for parts. the area has become practicaly lawless with arms and drug smuggling apparently rampant.

so, they got some land they claimed was there's and they are doing everything in their power to destroy it.

give a man an inch....

You'll find, brit, that under Jewish control, all religious beliefs are respected. The only time any travel or visiting is curtailed is when there is a threat of violence, and the violence isn't initiated by the Israeli government.

Contrast that with the ability to visit Bethlehem under Islamic control.

A very good idea before throwing rocks (pardon the pun) at the Israelis is to compare their behavior to the Arab behavior

First, thanks for the compliment.

I understand what you guys mean,but lets face it,we can discuss this all reasonably,but the ignorant racists in inner-city london(where i live), take this as an incentive to distribute more anti-muslim properganda.

What needs to happen in my opinion, is the media to clarify, that its the minority of both sides bombing civillians, or shooting children, and not them all to be generalised as bad guys.

We need this especialy in this time of anti-muslim sentiment,or the racist attacks in london will escalate to an unbearable point.

Originally posted by noisy_brit_kid
What needs to happen in my opinion, is the media to clarify, that its the minority of both sides bombing civillians, or shooting children, and not them all to be generalised as bad guys.

I don’t know what you mean by “minority”, but there is a difference between the two sides. One side attacks to defend its interests and does not actively seek to kill civilians. By interests I mean they only attack those who are threatening them. The other side targets the softest targets, to what end I don’t know. I guess it can be chalked up to racism and religion as the Palestinians seem to echo a lot of Nazi like rhetoric. If those arent "bad guys", then I dont know what is.


[edit on 6-1-2006 by Dronetek]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
but Islam saw Spain back down once before

radical militant islam made spain back down, not islam in general. Spain was probably better off under the rule of the enlightened moors than the backwards european kings of the time, but these jihadis have nothing in common with the sensible and adaptable moors that ruled old Andalus.

ace of base
The threat of Islam to Europe

The threat of radical militant islamists is real. Islam on its own doesn't pose a threat. Islam on its own is just a religion.

COle
Has it not been said Islam wants to take over Europe?

All religions want to spread to everyone in the world, and radical militant islam wants to militarily conquer and forcibly convert europeans. Not Islam in general. Lots of muslims couldn't give a damn if americans and europeans didn't convert, just like lots of americans and europeans don't give a damn if muslims convert to christianity.


By not focusing on the problem, radical, militant islamists, the three of you are undermining your own protection.

noisy_brit_kid
I just think the isrealie goverment could show a bit more tact.

The thing is the israelis lived in israel and fought against the british colonialists just like the palestinians. After wwii, wherein one nation tried to exterminate all its jews, it became painfully appparent that the jews needed a homeland, and since they already were a native people in British Palestine, that became the jewish state. In the process a lot of palestinians were kick out of their houses and into the seperate Palestinian State. The real problems arise when, after this, multiple arab nations form a league, which unites its armies and goes to war with israel. The israelis managed to win that war, and all subsequent arab-israeli wars, and in the process they occupied conquered territory, such as what is not the west bank.
So the israelis really aren't under any obligation to return any of that land. The Palestinians lost the war and lost their nation in that war.
Guess they shouldn't've started the war in the first place.

Originally posted by marg6043
The Spain issue hit more closely to me due to the fact that my grandfather was born in Spain.

I always remember my grandfather hate for what he called the "Moors" he didn't call them Muslin but the old name moors.

Funny I have a Spanish friend and she said that when she was growing up in Spain her mother would tell her to stay away from them.

I don't think that many Spanish people in Spain will allowed them to take over at all.

Spain is very Catholic and they will not change that easy.

As you can tell from the name, I live in Spain. I learnt very early on in my time here that the Spanish have a name for anything they consider dirty, evil, dishonest, unpleasant or nasty. Ask any Spaniard and he will tell you that name is 'moro', short for Moroccan, i.e. Moor.

The number of illegal Moroccan imigrants here is a real problem and the Spanish really do despise them generally. They are everywhere, and quite often whole families of them will live under trees with cardboard for a roof, making a living from petty crime and begging. Even thus, they consider themeselves to be much better off than they would be back in their own homeland.

If immigration continues at this rate, then the next logical step will be for these people to populate whole areas and make them 'no go' areas, like some cities in England now have. Wherever they gather in numbers, they try, and succeed, to pose a threat

The Spanish government have now acted, and have an agreement with the Moroccan government whereby they can return illegals without having to go through all the legal niceties which have caused Britain so many problems. Nevertheless, to prevent Seville, and many other locations in this beautiful land, from being overrun, they need to do more, and start sending back the illegals filling the streets.

Equally, the police here don't take any nonsense from them and are happy to use whatever means necessary to ensure they do not step out of line. Britain could learn a lot from Spain.

Spain is indeed a proudly catholic country. It seems to me, an atheist and a more recent arrival, that their catholicism is a force to unite them against the hordes which they still perceive as a potential threat several hundred years after they were first removed from the country.

Yes the right Spanish word is Moro, he used to talk about his roots and the evil moros.

Because I grew up in the Caribbean in PR we never got influence by the "moros" but I remember my parents specially my mother talking about the "Arabes" or Arabs even in PR they were also moving in not by great numbers but mostly only business man.

So you could tell who they were because they will be in their traditional outfits.

Yes Spain history and experiences with them has been a bitter one, take in consideration that Spain was once a powerful country.

Now the struggles are a differenct kind, just like US and the migration from mexico.

Originally posted by Nygdan

radical militant islam made spain back down, not islam in general. Spain was probably better off under the rule of the enlightened moors than the backwards european kings of the time, but these jihadis have nothing in common with the sensible and adaptable moors that ruled old Andalus.

I disagree with that.
It was not all rosy under the Moors.
There were many ateempts at insurrection against them during their rule because many of the Spanish did not want them there.

I know this is Wikipedia but it's still a good time line of the muslim history in Spain:

Timeline_of_the_Muslim_occupation_of_the_Iberian_Peninsul a

one thing that hasnt been discussed here is israels strategy in giving up gaza, and a very good strategy indeed. they gave it up for two reasons:

1. to build a barrier around the "palestinians" to keep them out of israel proper and therefore increase the safety of their citizens.

2. to show the world the barbarism of the "palestinian" people. the israelis knew damn well what would happen when they pulled out, and wanted to rest of the world to see it for themselves. of course, the burning of synagogues and the destruction of crops that could have been used to provide work and food for themselves didnt get a whole lot of attention in the liberal press.....go figure.

the fact that pulling out of gaza was one of the "palestinian" requirements to restart the peace process was just an added bonus.

Originally posted by snafu7700
one thing that hasnt been discussed here is israels strategy in giving up gaza, and a very good strategy indeed. they gave it up for two reasons:

1. to build a barrier around the "palestinians" to keep them out of israel proper and therefore increase the safety of their citizens.

2. to show the world the barbarism of the "palestinian" people. the israelis knew damn well what would happen when they pulled out, and wanted to rest of the world to see it for themselves. of course, the burning of synagogues and the destruction of crops that could have been used to provide work and food for themselves didnt get a whole lot of attention in the liberal press.....go figure.

the fact that pulling out of gaza was one of the "palestinian" requirements to restart the peace process was just an added bonus.

which is why the opposition to this plan came as such a surprise. Sharon's thinking was rather genius in my opinion.

It will come to the crunch point soon my friends fear not, you will have your war.

Just look at the Palestinains now. Abbas is a joke. He has no power and is too scared to take on the extremists. Palestinian society is polarising into what can only be described as Hamasistan but then thats what decades of Israeli occupation and incompetance by the PA do. This is what Sharon saw and why he was getting out while he could. I hope his sucessor does the same.

As for Europe, I always laugh when Islamic groups make statments like this. And as for you Americans saying to Europe wake up, you cowards I laugh as well. And why? We in Europe have a habit of producing the most extreme and violent right wing groups in the world and when the time comes Im sure we'll be able to produce them again.

You people have no idea how right wing France is at heart, just look at Le Pen and as for Spain, it would still have a right wing Governemnt if the Governement at the time didn't botch the whole Madrid bombing afair by saying it was ETA. As for Germany, well we all know what happened in the 1940's and we Brits well, we have the BNP, National Front etc and we sure get angry when the Daily Mail prints something! Crikey looks like we're gonna have a cracking little war on soon! Oh yeah, look at the Balklands there a lot of anti Muslim feeling there. Cor Blimey we're showing them who's boss!

My advice, ignore things like this unless you can actually speak arabic because I sure as hell don't know what they are jabbering on about and Im not about to trust some journalists soundbite as to what it says because that Ladies and Gents is how our Governements so expertly manipulate us. Thank you and good nite.

Originally posted by enslaved83
As for Europe, I always laugh when Islamic groups make statments like this. And as for you Americans saying to Europe wake up, you cowards I laugh as well. And why? We in Europe have a habit of producing the most extreme and violent right wing groups in the world and when the time comes Im sure we'll be able to produce them again.

Why do you say we're cowards, exactly?

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by enslaved83
As for Europe, I always laugh when Islamic groups make statments like this. And as for you Americans saying to Europe wake up, you cowards I laugh as well. And why? We in Europe have a habit of producing the most extreme and violent right wing groups in the world and when the time comes Im sure we'll be able to produce them again.

Why do you say we're cowards, exactly?

I was voicing, and berating the opinion of certain people on this board who seem to think that we Europeans have no backbone i.e. people who keep telling us to wake up to the Islamic threat because we are getting taken over. (I threat that I fail to see every day when I walk down the streets or Travle over the country)

Certain posters also seem to think that Europe is suffering an invasion of Islamic Imigrants who are infiltrating our society in order to destroy it. They also seem to think that we are doing nothing about it. Yes there are problems, but the extremists are minorities in their own populations and the best way to combat them to assimilate Muslim populations into society rather than creating Muslim Ghettos which is what has happened in the past. In some was Europe is waking up to this.

I for one do not think Europeans are cowards at all because if I did I would be branding myself a coward.

enslaved83

When I call Europeans cowards, England is not included in those comments and most will admit the English are anything but cowardly, but if your trying to convince us the French are not cowardly...well you have your work cut out for you.


Maximu§

I don't see this as a part of this topic. Can we get back to it?