The witch trials

I'm looking at this program on Swedish television today about the witch trials during the 14th, 15th, and 16th Centuries. It was pretty bloody in Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia, and I doubt most of those who were executed were witches.

But my question is, do you think that some of the women who were executed as witches could actually have been possessed by demons or evil spirits? I haven't looked into it very much, but it seems strange to me that people can slaughter so many innocents without any "substantial" evidence that they were really witches. But if there have been some who have actually been possessed by a demon or maybe even the big Mr. Satan himself, then it is a little more understandable that the panic spread as it did.


Rambling again, I guess.

Anw, what do you folks think about this?

My understanding of the Salem Witch trials here in America were that a lot of people were just seeing things due to furmented or rancid Ergot.

Toxicologists now know that eating ergot-contaminated food can lead to a convulsive disorder characterized by violent muscle spasms, vomiting, delusions, hallucinations, crawling sensations on the skin, and a host of other symptoms — all of which, Linnda Caporael noted, are present in the records of the Salem witchcraft trials. Ergot thrives in warm, damp, rainy springs and summers. When Caporael examined the diaries of Salem residents, she found that those exact conditions had been present in 1691. Nearly all of the accusers lived in the western section of Salem village, a region of swampy meadows that would have been prime breeding ground for the fungus. At that time, rye was the staple grain of Salem. The rye crop consumed in the winter of 1691-1692 — when the first usual symptoms began to be reported — could easily have been contaminated by large quantities of ergot. The summer of 1692, however, was dry, which could explain the abrupt end of the 'bewitchments.'

Ergot Poisoning- The Cause of the Salem Witch Trials

Ergot is a type of rye or something like, i know it's a grain, and when it goes bad, eating it will give you the same effect as taking '___'. And it seemed that the whole town was eating it, so they saw a lot of things that weren't there. And those early settlers attributed anything outside of their realm of comprehention (sp?), to the devil.

That makes sense, at least for Salem. But I still can't understand how it could have spread as much as it did. I believe there was some witch trials in Germany as well, and probably in a few other European countries as well. But I guess one can blame the church and pure fear for that.

Actually, ergot is a fungus. Other than that, the rest of your post was correct.

Lysergic Acid Dyethilamide ('___'-25) was a derivative of the many lysergic acids in ergot.

Plants that also contain forms of lysergic acid are morning glories and hawiian woodrose.

I'm not sure if the witch trials in Europe were caused by this particular poisoning or not or were just mass superstitions. About a woman being possessed. I think the demon or devil would have protected the woman in question. That is if possession is real.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by Griff]

Yeah, a little OT here, but regarding possessions, I've heard about this movie (supposedly "based on a true story") about a woman who was possessed by a demon or something like that. I can't remember the name of it, but it seems that some priest of the Catholic Church tried to do some exorcism on her. Don't know how it ended, though... Anybody know of it?

"The possession of Emily Rose" or something like that. I haven't seen the movie though so I can't speculate.

The trials eh.......
Let me say this...
Before our times the church acted as a form of policing
against behaviors such as those that we have as laws today thou shalt not whatever.In regards to being a good person I agree with the church but man kind is corrupt.No one these days (almost) can hear the truth of god.Man follows mans ideals..The officials of religion have power.Power with no one but god himself to answer to..Power corrupts absolute.If people appose your riegn what would you do.or even just to scare the population into rule .Kill in gods name(cause you angered god)jeeze give me a break.Anyone who utters their thoughts towards another with intent to change ones point of view in the name of god.Cannot be further from understanding what "god" truly is.


THere were alot of witches burnt because christians are the most confused bunch(i think)...God would not punish those who dont believe in him or his son.All human conduct is the will of "god"You cannot add up the total good or bad of a human soul then categorize them into two kinds then send them to an appropriate place to suffer or live happy.What kind of Human fanasy is that come on.....What ever im expecting the villagers now..(torches and pitchforks)

Originally posted by David_Reale

But my question is, do you think that some of the women who were executed as witches could actually have been possessed by demons or evil spirits? I haven't looked into it very much, but it seems strange to me that people can slaughter so many innocents without any "substantial" evidence that they were really witches......

Anw, what do you folks think about this?

It is possible... or they could have been ezqizos ... and because the dezease want known at the time, people would think they were possessed.

anyway, ignorance is still alive, just in other forms...

As to the "proof" you talk about, the sad thing is those people actually thought they had proof...

here are some examples of how they got their "proof" :

1) If you set a person on fire and they scream, ITS A WITCH

2) If you set a person on fire and they bur, ITS A WITCH

3) If you put a burning iron cross against their body, and it leaves a mark ITS A WITCH

4) If you put their head under the water and they struggle ...ITS A WITCH

5) If you put their haed under water and they arent alive after 5 minutes, ITS A WITCH

and the favorite of all times

6) Strip them naked, and if they have any birth-marks in their "lady business" ITS A WITCH... Satan's mark may very well be soemwhere else, thats why you must make sure you strip them naked ....

I had a discussion with a good friend of mine on the witch trials in north america - he was very convinced that most of the women convicted of witchcraft were wealthy widows with lots of land that either wouldn't give up the land or give up their booty... I haven't researched much on the subject, so I can't validate, but seems plausible to me..

If you actully spend a little time studying the witch trials you will see that the officials were quite leniant to those that confessed to sorcery. If they confessed and returned to the church they were simply let go.

If they refused to confess and denied that they were a witch they were usually put to death.

The irony in this is the ones who refused to confess were most likely the ones that were actually upstanding christians. The end result was christians were killing falsely accused christians who would not confess to sorcery.

I tried to explain this to a group of witches once and was damn near burned at the stake myself. They hold the burning years as their own martyrdom and to say it was anything less then their own, horrible agony is a big no no to them.

Still, its an interesting topic.

Love and light,

Wupy

Don't blame Christians for witchhunts, it was just satan sacraficing some of his 'front line' along with many innocents. It was a master plan that has worked well.

Today, I know too many truely nasty, selfish, deceitfull, cruel, dangerous and outright 'evil' wiches and warlocks, but thanks to those horrible and unjust witchhunts, they now have a, 'get of gaol free card'.

No one wants to be accused of "going on a witchhunt" but somehow this has devolved to mean, " accussing a witch of anything illegal, immoral or unjust", which makes it very hard to get any good old fashioned justice, where these people are concerned.

Try and explain to police or others in the justice system that harm, threats and property damage are 'motivated' by Occultists practicing their 'faith' against Christians. No don't. You'll end up the one who has to 'pay', while they gleefully cackle away.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Try and explain to police or others in the justice system that harm, threats and property damage are 'motivated' by Occultists practicing their 'faith' against Christians. No don't. You'll end up the one who has to 'pay', while they gleefully cackle away.

Wow, All rise for Judge Mental......

Hehehehe....

Wupy

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Don't blame Christians for witchhunts, it was just satan sacraficing some of his 'front line' along with many innocents. It was a master plan that has worked well.

Today, I know too many truely nasty, selfish, deceitfull, cruel, dangerous and outright 'evil' wiches and warlocks, but thanks to those horrible and unjust witchhunts, they now have a, 'get of gaol free card'.

There are not any Warlocks that is just made up. All people that practice in Witchcraft weather male or female are witches. Witchcraft means "craft of the wise" and has nothing to do with your Satan.

As to the witch trials, they were done because the R.C.C. didnt want the competition, the reason witches wear black is the same reason priests of the R.C.C. wear black. It is a magick color that brings you closer to the creator. The witches were the "wise ones" that people went to in time of need, weather it was spirtitual or medical. The church would not let this competition to there priests be. The church wanted it all, so they slaughtred all those inoccent women that were helping their community.

Witches are not possesed, or evil, or do they worship or even believe in Satan. The wiccan rede is "an harm none, do what thou wilt" and this is a very hard thing to do. It doesnt mean you can sin, and then repent so you can get your get out of hell free card.

It means to harm none. Including yourself, and what that ultimatly means is that it makes you responcible for your own actions. The whole darn religion of wicca is based on nature, and believes god works through them to help make positive changes. Everything else is just lies mades by the Christians. There is no Satan, only postive and negative energy.

Wow, All rise for Judge Mental......

I had to edit this post to put that quote in there. wupy that was really funny!


Judge Mental...I think I had him once, he threw the book at me.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by LoneGunMan]

I think demonic or other types of possessions have and do occur, but I also think that they are extremely rare. I've never seen one myself, but I have talked to one man I trust who has (he is a priest and had to perform an exorcism), and I've heard a few other stories from less reputable sources, as well.

I think that the vast majority of the "witches" killed in the witchhunts were people who were either mentally ill, on some kind of mind-altering substances (I wonder what this mushroom tastes like...) or were people that were just plain unpopular, and falsely accused out of spite. I've worked in a psychiatric ward, and let me tell you, I've seen people act really strangely at times, and I can see how superstitious people a few centuries ago could have easily mistaken such for possessions.

In regards specifically to the Salem case, I remember seeing a documentary several years ago where they thought that some hallucinogenic herb (forgot which one now) had gotten mixed into their food by accident, into their bread, I think it was, which sounds a lot like that ergot theory mentioned earlier.

I also seem to remember reading once that not that many people were actually killed as witches, at least not as many as most people think. I think the numbers were several hundred or a few thousand at most, but I'd have to research that to be sure.

I haven't read the other replies, so maybe i'm gonna repeat things already posted here.

Anyway, to have a better understanding of that period of time, we have to consider 2 elements:

1- ignorance
2- struggle for power and control by the Church

Now... first of all, the art of witchcraft (whose name is of celtic origin) was quite widespread throughout the villages (the word Pagan is from the latin PAGUS, that means village). There were many forms of popular magick (we still have demonstrations of it, for example the typical "granny's soup" you take when you catch a cold... probably it was a pagan -with the meaning i just said above- alchemical recipe, and it managed to last till nowadays) and no, people didn't worship the devil.

Think of it: the idea of Satan was given us by the Christian doctrine, right?
Ok, now think of a village that hasn't been reached by Christianity... how can its inhabitants worship the devil, if they don't even know who or what it is?!

I'm not saying everyone was kind and friendly, i'm not saying no one ever used magick in evil ways; i'm just saying they couldn't worship something/someone they didn't know.

Usually, those pagans worshipped natural deities, such as the Sun, the Moon, masculine and feminine aspects of life/nature, the cicle of birth and death (for example, you can find such elements in the Wiccan phylosophy... perform a quick search here on ATS or read some Scott Cunningham's books to find some good informations about it).

Now, back to inquisition... as i said before, i think the major causes of it were Church's eagerness for religious power and ignorance. Why? Simple:
First of all, in order to gain power, a relatively young Church had to delete traditions much "older" than it was (popular magick had been probably used for several thousands of years, while Church was just 11 hundred yrs old): in order to properly defeat an "enemy", first of all you have to discredit it, before wiping it out, especially if its a thousand yrs old tradition, don't you think so?

So, Church connected witchcraft/pagan magick with Satan (think of the common image of Satan, half human, half goat: where does it come from? In the Holy Writings Satan is described as a snake, nothing more; in truth, the half human half goat image is from Ancient Greece's Satyrs, manifestations of masculine sexual power ---> it think it may be an attempt to discredit sexual freedom), in order to demonyze it, and then, when enough people were converted, they begun hunting the "rebels".

Now, about the ignorance: in that period there was very little medical and psichological knowledge: particular diseases, such as epilepsy, schizophrenia (spelling?), or other particular psichological disturbances could have been easily mistaken for demonic possession. And people affected by such diseases could have been easily seen as worshippers of Satan, as witches.

People using alchemy/herbology (spelling?) to heal others were also hunted, probably because these were remedies from those traditions Church wanted to eradicate.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

There are not any Warlocks that is just made up.

Don't be so sure...................

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

here are some examples of how they got their "proof" :

1) If you set a person on fire and they scream, ITS A WITCH....

My personal "favorite" was always: to bind their arms and legs, then throw them in a lake.

If he/she floated.... a witch that must be "stoned" or burned at the stake.

If he/she sank...... innocent, and god would "save" the soul.

:shk: Death by accusation.



[edit on 1/6/06 by redmage]

O.K. first, alot of people say Christians are, "just made up", but those who identify and live as one, would and do strongly disagree. There is one proudly self proclaimed 'warlock' I know in particular, that I bet no one would dare tell to his face, he was anything but.

Mr. Wupy, well at lest you've ceased with the foney, "love and light" when insulting me, good, progress....
Now, there are more than enough threads on ATS alone, discussing the child sex slave trade and that it does supply children to occultists, so please don't try to hijack this into a, "all occultists are only good and love and light" lie. "Messing with" people who dare to give support to survivers of 'dark art' occultists is not uncommon. Explaining this as the reason for suffering criminal violence and property damage etc., from people otherwise 'not in your life', gets even kind, open minded people making insulting, "judgemental" comments like yours, and just not bothering with a dillegent investigation.

As to the point of innocent, devout Christians being put to death as 'witches' where the 'real' witches would lie their way out, one witch I knew didn't get 'upset' about this but laughed about all the future generations of Christians that wouldn't "be bred". This woman was particularly boastfull of how 'to plan', satan was running the show and these decades later her boast that "the witch trials" were instigated by satan to hurt Christians more than occultists, is proved on ATS daily.




[edit on 6-1-2006 by suzy ryan]

Wow, thanx everyone for the replies. I'll try to comment some of it.

As for the proofs, I can just say one thing:

But the theory with the church trying to crush old religions made some sense, and so did the one stating the people of Salem suffered from '___' That certainly would explain why they saw what they saw. Pretty freaky, dudes...

And regarding warlocks and child sex trade and all this (and now I'm walking right in on the NWO/Secret Society forums where I'm a regular), I think it's quite common knowledge that the so-called Illuminati/Freemasons/NWO, whatever you want to call them, which means many of our leaders these days, take part in dark religious rituals involving children, many of them in the so-called Bohemian Grove. Now, I'd say that is the closest thing to warlocks we can come these days. I hate those guys...

Anyway, thanks for the attention. I enjoyed it. Keep it coming

I had a discussion with a good friend of mine on the witch trials in north america - he was very convinced that most of the women convicted of witchcraft were wealthy widows with lots of land that either wouldn't give up the land or give up their booty... I haven't researched much on the subject, so I can't validate, but seems plausible to me..

There is some documentry evidence to support this assertion.


Today, I know too many truely nasty, selfish, deceitfull, cruel, dangerous and outright 'evil' wiches and warlocks.
discussing the child sex slave trade and that it does supply children to occultists,

As has been stated Warlock is a Hollyweird term not much used in "Witchy " circles, unless it is used in its strictest form. That being defined as Betrayer,liar,and untrustworthy. Seems to me in most cases this term would be or should be used in reference to and synonamous with Christian.


I think it's quite common knowledge that the so-called Illuminati/Freemasons/NWO, whatever you want to call them, which means many of our leaders these days, take part in dark religious rituals involving children, many of them in the so-called Bohemian Grove.

This is such a load of Bovine Feces all I can say is
1 it is off topic
2 Provide Verifiable source material and evidence.

Now for those who are interested. For a look at the mindset and mental ( perhaps that should be MENTAL ) workings of the xian world of the witch hunts I suggest reading the legal
opinion of the day (from the mid 1500's )as i recall, Malleus Maleficarum by Heinrich Kramer and
James Sprenger.( both officials of the Holy Office of the Inquisition)

RE the "Test" mentioned above, I have read a different but simular version. In the version that I know a stone is tied around the neck. If the Victim floats both they and their FAMILIES are KILLED as witches.
If the VICTIM drowns then they are innocent and their family is free to go. either way if you are the accused YOU DIE.