Radical space propulsion: warp drive for real?

I read somewhere that there could be( knowing what we now know about the development of the Universe) civilizations that are 1-3 billion years old somewhere in space.

And given the exponential effect of compounding knowledge, a trillion years ahead of us.

I trade at night(currencies) so I'm always up at this time.

a billion year old civilization, this would be like babylon 5, just how advance would we be in say a million years (well knowing us, I dont really see us lasting that long, in say 15,000 we would spread out like a cancer in space if we dont destroy each other) I mean, they had culteres in that show that were millions of years old, they had evolve to almost god like status, I could almost see how we might be in a couple of thousand of years but much beyond that, everything would be really up in the air.

Well, I avoided Babylon 5 references because...Well, we're talking science here, not "technobable", and I've already made so many references to sci fi shows. That was, however, the original source from which I heard the seeding concept.

There's a problem, though, with billion year old civilizations. If they exist, Darwin was dead wrong. Personally, in my research into evolution, I agree with this sentiment, though I don't necessarily dismiss evolution. As popular science goes, though, Darwin is king and his model reigns supreme. If we are to believe Babylon 5 or the other source, evolution must happen very rapidly on some planets, and intelligence must be the focus from bacteria to whatever. By all the evidence we have here on earth on how life may develop, there is no reason to believe this beyond sci-fi stories. To believe what you've proposed, we have to say Earth is the exception, and other planets develop intelligent life far faster and far smarter. What possible reason would we have to believe this other than Star Trek is cool? Yeah, great idea, fun idea, novel idea, but the time lines don't mix.

As to the trillions of years beyond, that's inaccurate. As you stated, technology, so far as the 20th century goes, advanced parabolicly. Therefore, if a race had 935,000,000 years of development before we did, we would only be 935,000,000 years behind them...Assuming we're complete equals. However, while technology today is advancing very rapidly, there have been times in human history where technological development doesn't only stagnate, it backtracks. Again, what is the reason to believe we are the exception and not the norm? All of these theories hinge on Earth and humanity being distinctly unique in the Universe, and all other life developed differently and faster than us. Even though the contention is that humanity is pathetic compared to all other species on the planet, that's just as arrogant as believing we could be first for FTL travel. Humanity being the scum at the bottom of the barrel is just as likely as us being the gold plating on that cast iron ring.

So other than sci-fi stories and con men, what scientific reasoning is there to believe Earth is the exception and not the rule?

Earth had no multicellular life for most of its history.

Our solar system formed 5 billion years ago, but it is quite feasible
for other solar systems to have formed 10 billion years ago.

So having a billion year head start on us is very simple.

If this "radical warp drive" propulsion (to get back on topic) is permittible
by the laws of physics, and if there's a billion year old civilization, then one
may have expected that the entire inhabitable Galaxy would be colonized.

Actually over that length of time the original civilization could easily have split
into many and both natural and artificial biological evolution changed many of them
from their original forms.

That's actually one argument against such a thing and ETs in general.

The sky should have lit up in structured EM radiation the night that we
first turned on a radio telescope. Of course there could be other
communication forms we don't yet know about but still the EM band would
be useful for some things still. And with a galactic civilization with massive
diversity and energy use the evidence should have been startling and overwhelming.

Like a stone age jungle villager stumbling into Hong Kong or something.

Even if almost all such planets didn't emit in the EM, the tiny minority who did would be
very significant.

Doesn't EM dissipate with distance? We could be bombarded with intelligent signals right now but so degraded that they look indistiguisable from the background. What would be the max range? What would be the EM window(by that I mean the amount of time a civ uses non-coherent EM frequencies as their primary communications method)? Would it be 50 years? 100? Laser communications would not be detected by use unless it was aimed directly at us and that may be the most desirable method of communication for aliens to use(assuming that FTL communication is impossible)

When did this become a stellar astrophysics and cosmological discussion? I'll chime in: Has anyone thought of the possiblity that life on Earth is the first and so far only life to have existed anywhere in the universe? We could very well be trying in hopeless hopeless vein at finding life outside our atmosphere which may not become present or evolve for another 10 billion years or ever!

Originally posted by Frosty
When did this become a stellar astrophysics and cosmological discussion? I'll chime in: Has anyone thought of the possiblity that life on Earth is the first and so far only life to have existed anywhere in the universe? We could very well be trying in hopeless hopeless vein at finding life outside our atmosphere which may not become present or evolve for another 10 billion years or ever!

Just because we don't know if life is "out here", doesn't mean we don't try to find it.

Like someone on this thread said earlier, Christopher Columbus tried to get the Portuguise government to pay for his expedition to find a new trade route to India and he was told the route didn't exist so he went to Spain and got funding.

If we didn't atleast try new things and explore new ideas just because of a few naysayers we would still live in caves, eating raw meat (don't want to try that new fangled contraption called fire) and be dying by age 25.

Besides even if there is no life outside of Earth, if we develop the means to travel to other stars and find planets that will atleast support life then we could populate it and spread life all across the galaxy. Then natural selection and evolution will take hold and in a couple thousand years from now new species will sprout up that can only live on the new planet and then we will have created our own aliens.

Originally posted by Frosty
When did this become a stellar astrophysics and cosmological discussion? I'll chime in: Has anyone thought of the possiblity that life on Earth is the first and so far only life to have existed anywhere in the universe? We could very well be trying in hopeless hopeless vein at finding life outside our atmosphere which may not become present or evolve for another 10 billion years or ever!

I think a quest for ETs would be a far better enterprise than a brand new weapon of mass destruction. You can't communicate with nukes.

Originally posted by mbkennel
Earth had no multicellular life for most of its history.

Our solar system formed 5 billion years ago, but it is quite feasible
for other solar systems to have formed 10 billion years ago.

So having a billion year head start on us is very simple.

I don't follow...Where was the astrohphysical timeline I presented so wrong? Also, again, what reasoning do we have to believe we are the exception and not the norm?

As to sidetracking from the original subject, we didn't change the topic. We were discussing the liklihood of possible outcomes of this technology. Not off topic at all, just a smaller subset of the larger topic at hand.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Doesn't EM dissipate with distance? We could be bombarded with intelligent signals right now but so degraded that they look indistiguisable from the background. What would be the max range? What would be the EM window(by that I mean the amount of time a civ uses non-coherent EM frequencies as their primary communications method)? Would it be 50 years? 100? Laser communications would not be detected by use unless it was aimed directly at us and that may be the most desirable method of communication for aliens to use(assuming that FTL communication is impossible)

Some kind of quantum subspace communication might be possible and has some support in theory.

There are certain frequencies, the resonating freq of hydrogen, that when used for communication, would be enhanced and amplified by all the hydrogen in the universe.

The SETI site might have something, as there may be other frequencies for other reasons.








[edit on 1/21/2006 by bodebliss]

For those concerned with the possibility that humans or any other organic and or artificial things would be unable to cope with the massive acceleration I put forth the following: devise a method for creating a protective "gravitic sphere" within the craft. One which mathmatically computes the modulations of the acceleration in real time and uses varying degrees of gravitic modulation to constantly update the field within the "life pod" to be in proper phase or non phase with the out side accelerated speed. I think that due to the reduced mass of the "life pod" the energy required to maintain a livable environment would be downscaled to a degree of negative magnitude to the energy expended to achieve acceleration.

I just hope it comes to something
If so, it'd be the bridge to the next "level" of technology and science, imo
Imagine what new technologies and ideas could be ushered in if we could travel to other star systems? hell, even other planets in our own system
A 5? hour trip to mars and back is an amazing thought.

You'd like to do amazing travel , huh?

Well I have just the ticket for you and it only cost ten dollars.

You can when near death(if it's possible) travel to the future, be made young again, and live as long as you want as a $$trillionare$$.


www.timetravelfund.com...

Don't say I never gave you anything. Ten bucks! Can't be beat!

PS: Be sure to read the whole site.

HI ALL

this is my first post here.please excuse
any bad grammar or spelling on my part English is not my first language

first for anyone poo pooing this theory and calling
it crack pot please keep this in mind

1 it can be tested super string can not as yet be tested

2 unlike string theory it correctly predicts particle masses to within the margin of error of current
measurements.and that ante bad for a long forgotten
theory from the 70`s

i turned 41 last august i am in very good
heath my family are all long lifers
and i am financially very well set

so i may yet live to see the first starship live our
world

i just hope we name the first one enterprise


DON

PS.

WATCH OUT YOU LITTLE GRAY BAST**ARDS HERE COMES
THE RACE OF MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're 40's .

You might live long enough to see eternal health.

This is the age of the exponential growth of knowledge.

Gooogle: The Singularity


PS: Welcome Aboard!








[edit on 1/25/2006 by bodebliss]

Originally posted by bodebliss
You're 40's .

You might live long enough to see eternal health.

This is the age of the exponential growth of knowledge.

Gooogle: The Singularity


PS: Welcome Aboard!



Thank you for the very kind welcome



DON

Originally posted by bodebliss
You'd like to do amazing travel , huh?

Well I have just the ticket for you and it only cost ten dollars.

You can when near death(if it's possible) travel to the future, be made young again, and live as long as you want as a $$trillionare$$.


www.timetravelfund.com...

Don't say I never gave you anything. Ten bucks! Can't be beat!


PS: Be sure to read the whole site.

Hey I am a member

Originally posted by sardion2000
Doesn't EM dissipate with distance? We could be bombarded with intelligent signals right now but so degraded that they look indistiguisable from the background. What would be the max range? What would be the EM window(by that I mean the amount of time a civ uses non-coherent EM frequencies as their primary communications method)? Would it be 50 years? 100? Laser communications would not be detected by use unless it was aimed directly at us and that may be the most desirable method of communication for aliens to use(assuming that FTL communication is impossible)

We are looking for radio signals, now think about it. Its our primary method of communication but.... Most of our technology just evolved over a little more then a hundred years and look how far we have come in that short period of time. Now imagine what we will achieve in the next 1000, 5000, 10000 years? Your mind cant even imagne the stuff we will have and I am positive we will not be using radio waves. Now what if most of civilizations out there are are 100,000 or more years ahead?

Now what if most of civilizations out there are are 100,000 or more years ahead?

Well if they are you can times that 100,000 years by 1,000,000 or a 1,000,000,000 because of the exponential the effect of compounding knowledge.

In otherwords they will either be living 100 billion or 100 trillion years in our future at our current pace of development or they will be wiped out by their own technology.

We are on the threshold of a major upturn in tech that will look like a chart that goes straight up.

picoscience.8m.com...

Hey I am a member

I'll see you in the future!