US Air Strike Kills Iraqi Family of 12

Man o Man Souljah,
As I have stated that I do not like the killings or the death. I do not like the Waco incident or any of the others.
You question weather the US goverment would perpetrate such actions on US soil against Americans.
I have now provided you information that the US has done this in the past to it's own people. Just as they have opened fire on Unarmed citizens like the students at Kent State back in the 70's
Again, I sorrow for the deaths, but I will support the troops. No matter how evil / idiotic you try to try to paint them.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Man o Man Souljah,
As I have stated that I do not like the killings or the death. I do not like the Waco incident or any of the others.

[-snip-]

Again, I sorrow for the deaths, but I will support the troops. No matter how evil / idiotic you try to try to paint them.

And you ARE Critical toward these Events - yet you STILL Support when the US Troops do it to the Iraqi Civilans?

What part do you not get?
that I support the troops?
That I do not support the actions that the goverment takes against americans or Iraqis or any non criminal?


And you ARE Critical toward these Events - yet you STILL Support when the US Troops do it to the Iraqi Civilans?

Originally posted by Souljah
OK - let ME Break it down for You:

1) Three Men are seeing Digging by an UAV. Nobody said 110% that they were installing an IED or planting a Landmine. Therefore, that is a SUSPECION that these 3 People were Insurgents A.K.A. Terrorists. Maybe they were Construction workers - did the US Marines Core check with the local authorities if there is any Construction going on?

So before any action is taken to investigate they need to alert the local authorities, get premission, get a translator, get a local officer of the law THEN go and see what there up to?

2) WRONG. The Report say, that the three men were tracked to a building, meaning that they did NOT Run away to the Building, but were only Tracked to it - that means that they Walked to the House. Again, what you said is a SUSPECION, that these 3 Men were actually Insurgents and not some Workers.

Since when does "tracked" men not runing?
Does the report state what MPH or KMPH they where traveling?

3) You have Said this Statement Correctly: MAY HAVE BEEN INSURGENTS. So, what do you do, in a may have been Scenario? Come on, you're an Ex Soldier - what would YOU do?

NONE of these 3 Points you made are not PROOF that these 3 Men were actually Insurgents, or as you prefer Terrorists. So, what gives the RIGHT to the US Military Forces to Label that house as an Insurgent Stronghold, where there are several Well Armed Enemy Combatants, ready to Engage the US Forces with all they got, including a planeted IED by the Road, so that they BETTER Armed Marines, have to call AIR SUPPORT to level this House and Eliminate the Problem by Eliminating the People? Isn't that the Stalinistic Way to solver Problem; No People, No Problem?

So because they "may" have been a threat that means we should not act, then in retrospect what we did on 7/7 was correct and we should have LET them kill those people yes no?

There was NO Mention of an Minefield, and the IED is also only a Possibility that you would love it to be True.

And there is no mention NOT of a minefield ethier, the IED is a possibility, or do you not take them into account?

This Event is a Perfect Example of the Ammount of Care to the local Iraqi Population, that the US Armed Forces have in this War. The Urban Warfare is no longer a House to House Combat, where the Infantry play a Leading Role. Problems are Solved via Command Screens, when the Marines use a Laser Deisgnator to Illuminate the Suspected Enemy Stronghold (in this case a Hose with 12 Family members, including 3 Women and 3 Boys younger then 10 in their Jammies) and call to their Air Support; probably a Marines F/A-18, with Laser Guided DU Bomb, who also only sees the Enemy as a little dot on his Head Up Display, and when the onboard Targetting computer says Fire, he presses the trigger and his Job is done. He never saw the Faces of his Target and he never will. And those Marines also.

So let me get this striahgt, your complaining about american tactics but kidnapping and head chopping is an ok?
Or the other insurgent warcrimes?
No lets focus on the marines "Tactics" and use hindsight to its fullest.
Mabye we should start with insurgent tactics on civilians which will have the highest fear inspiring ability but low tactical effectivenes.

That is the Video Game Approach to Solve this Problem.

No its called modern warfare.

America was engaged in an illusion that it was fighting, much as the mind engages with a video game, where the experience tricks the consciousness into believing it is an active participant in something that is not happening.

Oh here we go, blame it on video games now?

The US armed Forces did not want to Face the Real Problem of this Scenario and do some Face to Face combat with it - but instead they used what they know BEST: a Simulation, just like in the Computer Game.

How would you know? Eh? Your not there , you only read reports in a nice far away place where war once was, you read reports by biased reporters.

That is, as Gazrok has said eariler, as if the LAPD dropped a Hand Granade through the Window of Suspected Criminals somewhere in downtown LA. How would that make you feel, as a Civilan living in Los Angeles?

Well if your out, at nite, digging around an aera which they believe has mines in it , what they hell do you expect them to think?
Oh mabye its NOT mines, mabye its NOT IED's , maybye its 4 men digging at night?

Would you LIKE that Police?

[edit on 7/1/06 by Souljah]

Would you like police that cut off your head if you backchat them or critisise them?

Originally posted by devilwasp
So before any action is taken to investigate they need to alert the local authorities, get premission, get a translator, get a local officer of the law THEN go and see what there up to?

That sounds Okey.
My point was, that the potential Suspected Insurgents are quickly attacked, and wiped off the map - quickly eliminate them, and then leave them under the rubble; they don't do bodycounts, you know.

Since when does "tracked" men not runing?
Does the report state what MPH or KMPH they where traveling?

Mister Kenshiro said they were running away, as if they were Guilty of the crime and were running to get shelter or get away. The Article does not say that. That was my point.

So because they "may" have been a threat that means we should not act, then in retrospect what we did on 7/7 was correct and we should have LET them kill those people yes no?

If it MAY have been a Threat to the Peace and Security of the Iraqi people - by All Means INSPECT the situation - but do not Bomb it and wipe it off the face of this Earth.

So let me get this striahgt, your complaining about american tactics but kidnapping and head chopping is an ok?
Or the other insurgent warcrimes?
No lets focus on the marines "Tactics" and use hindsight to its fullest.
Mabye we should start with insurgent tactics on civilians which will have the highest fear inspiring ability but low tactical effectivenes.

This Thread is not about Kidnap or any Head Chopping.

It is about how, an US Air strike killed a Family of 12 or 14 Innocent Civilans. Why? Becuse they were ordered to by a senior officer, who does not have the time or the balls, to act like a real Security Force, not an OCCUPATIONAL force, for thats how it looks like. Occupational forces bomb houses without any real evidence, just based on a Hunch that they had.

And if you want to go even Further - you do not have a problem, with Illegal Information Extraction Techniques that CIA uses in their Secret Detention Camps? All is allowed in the name of Democracy and Freedom ey?

No its called modern warfare.

No - that is called VIRTUAL Warfare, which has little to do with REAL war.

How would you know? Eh? Your not there , you only read reports in a nice far away place where war once was, you read reports by biased reporters.

What Power do you have, to label the news I read Biased?

Ofcourse youre Goverment and Military Sources are completly Independant and without Agendas, right?

Would you like police that cut off your head if you backchat them or critisise them?

Would you like the Police that Bombs your Home and then says we're Sorry?

Originally posted by Souljah
That sounds Okey.

Also physically impossible but heh.

My point was, that the potential Suspected Insurgents are quickly attacked, and wiped off the map - quickly eliminate them, and then leave them under the rubble; they don't do bodycounts, you know.

You see people digging a hole next to a road , in a warzone, in the middle of the night...wouldnt you become "slightly" suspcios?
Well how can they do know who killed who with body counts?
Or should they take insurgent kills under thier duristiction too since they obviosly dont do them ethier.

Mister Kenshiro said they were running away, as if they were Guilty of the crime and were running to get shelter or get away. The Article does not say that. That was my point.

No your point was that the report doesnt state if they walking or running , more precisely you where stating that it could be that they where walking.

If it MAY have been a Threat to the Peace and Security of the Iraqi people - by All Means INSPECT the situation - but do not Bomb it and wipe it off the face of this Earth.

How do you "inspect" something in what looks like a minefield ?

This Thread is not about Kidnap or any Head Chopping.

It is about how, an US Air strike killed a Family of 12 or 14 Innocent Civilans. Why? Becuse they were ordered to by a senior officer, who does not have the time or the balls, to act like a real Security Force, not an OCCUPATIONAL force, for thats how it looks like. Occupational forces bomb houses without any real evidence, just based on a Hunch that they had.

This thread is about the above yet you dont report any of the other side of it, THATS my point.

Also you have no evidence to support any of the above, and the Coalition forces are not security forces, never have been and never will be.

And if you want to go even Further - you do not have a problem, with Illegal Information Extraction Techniques that CIA uses in their Secret Detention Camps? All is allowed in the name of Democracy and Freedom ey?

Is it ok that iraqi's steal police officers and fire officers from thier homes, hold them hostage, kill them and set traps for their families when they find the body?

No - that is called VIRTUAL Warfare, which has little to do with REAL war.

Real war?
"REAL" war died out with the invention of the machine gun, this is life, this is reality. Ethier accept it or live in the past.

What Power do you have, to label the news I read Biased?

I have the power of being free, some thing which you "claim" to fight for.

Ofcourse youre Goverment and Military Sources are completly Independant and without Agendas, right?
[/qutoe]
No not once did I say that, YOU on the other have repeated several times that your reporting "impartial" news, tell me what is "impartial" news?

Impartiality in war does not exist.

Would you like the Police that Bombs your Home and then says we're Sorry?

If I was outside digging a hole next to a route used by US forces , in the midle of the nite and putting something in the hole and then moving away from it , it would be my own dammed fault!

We were losing the war against the Japanese until we became more ruthless than they were. We didnt have the support of the Japanese people if i'm not mistaken.

Apples and Oranges isn't it?

This was a COMPLETELY different political and military situation....

And the "ruthlessness", such as dropping the A-Bombs is something that will likely always be debated... personally, I used to be all for it, but given the intentional civilian fallout, I don't really feel we were justified in choosing the targets we did. We could have easily have achieved the same objective with a more remote purely military target, showcasing the destructive power of the weapon instead....

Well if your out, at nite, digging around an aera which they believe has mines in it , what they hell do you expect them to think?
Oh mabye its NOT mines, mabye its NOT IED's , maybye its 4 men digging at night?

Still doesn't give you the right to automatically assume guilt and assign a sentence of "death", when a simple call to the local authorities would allow THEM to investigate it... Or, if such authorities aren't there, just who exactly have we been training and equipping for all this time??? After all, that's what Bush said was taking so long, right? Thing is, bombing houses based on even strong suspiscion, is NOT something that should be done without the host country's permission, when said country has had elections and has rights of sovereignty.

[edit on 12-1-2006 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
I don't really feel we were justified in choosing the targets we did. We could have easily have achieved the same objective with a more remote purely military target, showcasing the destructive power of the weapon instead....

But could we have really been sure it would have had the same effect? They might have thought, sure, they have a powerful weapon, but they don't have the stomach to use it on our cities. I'm sure it was a tough call for those in that position.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Still doesn't give you the right to automatically assume guilt and assign a sentence of "death", when a simple call to the local authorities would allow THEM to investigate it...

What authorities? You mean the ones that are in the pocket of the insurgents?

Or, if such authorities aren't there, just who exactly have we been training and equipping for all this time???

Well we've been training a country wide force, theres bound to be gaps.

After all, that's what Bush said was taking so long, right? Thing is, bombing houses based on even strong suspiscion, is NOT something that should be done without the host country's permission, when said country has had elections and has rights of sovereignty.

[edit on 12-1-2006 by Gazrok]

Well should they as I have said, gathered local security, interpreters, flash lights, a digging crew and even a court order to investigate 3 guys digging a ditch, in the dark, in a warzone, next to a road.

Well should they as I have said, gathered local security, interpreters, flash lights, a digging crew and even a court order to investigate 3 guys digging a ditch, in the dark, in a warzone, next to a road.

No.

Instead of using a bomb that costs likely more than many members' salaries combined, perhaps we could have used another high-tech device....I believe it's called "radio"...to notify the local police...the same as we'd expect any democracy to do. We are trying to say there's a democracy there, aren't we? The local police would then investigate.

Lets see...
1. Bomb the civilian area, hope you're right, and kill a few bad guys...or
2. Risk an international incident and possible death to innocents, all to nail a couple of baddies you THINK may be in there....

Gee....tough choice, right?

Thing is, we are not still claiming to be operating in a warzone...so our tactics must reflect that. If we allow ourselves to execute "suspects" on the spot, then we are no better than the regime we ousted...no matter how much you try and justify it....

Thing is, we are not still claiming to be operating in a warzone...so our tactics must reflect that.

What are you talking about? Any place they go to and fire from automatically becomes a legitimate military target. People like you need to stop giving terrorists the idea that if they fire from a civilian house they will be safe from retaliation .

Originally posted by Gazrok
No.

Instead of using a bomb that costs likely more than many members' salaries combined, perhaps we could have used another high-tech device....I believe it's called "radio"...to notify the local police...the same as we'd expect any democracy to do. We are trying to say there's a democracy there, aren't we? The local police would then investigate.

So your going to wait on the local police doing it and letting hundreds of soldiers be at risk from a possible weapon?

Lets see...
1. Bomb the civilian area, hope you're right, and kill a few bad guys...or
2. Risk an international incident and possible death to innocents, all to nail a couple of baddies you THINK may be in there....

Gee....tough choice, right?

...? They are both the same.....

Thing is, we are not still claiming to be operating in a warzone...so our tactics must reflect that. If we allow ourselves to execute "suspects" on the spot, then we are no better than the regime we ousted...no matter how much you try and justify it....

I guess the old USAF phrase is right huh: "One "Oh ****" sounds louder than a thousand "Nice job guys"