Can the creation arguement and evoulution coincide, are they both true to some extent.

Originally posted by Adrianay
So many people say that Genisis is just a picture of what happened, sybolstic and nothing more, how can this be? it is either truth or lie.

Not everything is black and white, atleast not with God. The Genesis account delivers truth on every level, from 1 day=1billion to 1 day=1day.

[Quote] Evoulution and the creation theory can not coincide. why? because in Genisis it contradicts science, light (1st day)was made before the stars(4th day) , there was nothing for the light to come from.

Again your intel is limited. You do know that Genesis is the creation story of this Heaven and this Earth. If you rebuild scientific accounts from universal to terrestrial view or perspective, they both agree close to 100%. There was light on Earth before the two "eyes of of God" and all the "angelic stars" became visible through the atmosphere. Makes perfect sense and coicides with science. It is also true if you believe in the Big Bang. First there was only darkness, then boom, everything was burning light. Later the light formed the elements, planets and stars were formed, and in the meantime God who is pure spirit and is the only one who Creates as the Bible says. Light existed before the stars. There was an explosion.

Also it says God saw all this was good, how is millions of years of death, famine, chemical reactions, pain and suffering good, its not.

Again you show imaturityy. Without God we would never have existed. God saw that it was good. Who are you to judge God and his work? A blacksmith creates a hammer. It's a perfect hammer for it's purpose. But then a thief comes, steels the hammer and kills the blacksmith's son.... Is it the hammer's fault? Is it the blacksmith's fault? Or is it the sinner who transgressed against them?

now you could say, the bible is compleat lies, that the big bang caused everything. Where did the chemicals come from? Where did God cme from? both of these are strong arguements, therefor it takes jst as much faith to believe in science as it does in God, apart from the fact of the complexity of the universe, science knows very little still, we do not know how every part of our cells work, we do not know the chemical reactions for storing memory, science is not a compleate theory, whereas the bible is,

Wow, man, where did the chemicals come from? The elements of course which came out of the ur-particle, probably a macro nucleus which was split. A macro version of a nuclear chain reaction. And you are wrong about the bible. It's not a theory at all. It is spiritual observation, it's the account of God when he made these things we call reality. While science is the tool to proove his testimony.

science is what I believe to be the foundations for Gods creation, his laws, but if he created them why is it that ppl find it so hard that he can brake them by rising from the dead? If Genisis is but storys how do u explain the Jewish nation? if the bible is false how did a man over 80 years old become a farther by a woman the same age to give birth to the Jewish nation? Finnaly then how can we know what parts of the bible are true and which parts are not, we know all to be true because we know parts to be true, and if the rest were not true the other parts would make no sense, believe in full or dont believe, but yeah, what are ur thoughts on creation, do u believe the 7 day creation theory or the evolution theory? speak!

Evolution is based on the assertion that there is no God. Rather than intelligent design, it speeks about random patterns sooner or later forming systems that in the greater scale again, separates from chaos. This could work in astronomical measures and physics, but not in biology. We are created. If you can't see that, I won't trust you in anything. I'm a designer, and the perfect proportions of especially the human body is astouning. How it it factors down to simple geometry composed and sculptured by a master of all sciences known and probably twise as many unknown. The complexity of the human body and mind together with how we work and look and of course how our DNA is without any doubt programed prooves that we are created intelligently. Studies show that the telomeres that ends every DNA string in all our cells are programed to limit the expected life span of of the human body to 120 years like the Bible told us thousands of years ago. Evertime a cell generates it looses one telomere until there are none left, and the cell stops regenerating. It is not unlikely that we one day can charge water (which 70% of our body is made up of) to reverse this through a created fruit which also has medical properties we can only dream of (btw, science speeks already today about designing fruits with medical properties, like blue bananas curing cancer etc.). Anyway the Bible speeks of such water, enabling us to live eternally. Running water, rivers and canals etc. is always used in the Bible as a metaphor of wisdom, just like light always represents the truth. The trees are always people, and fruit always their works. The wisdom of Life: The Water of Life -- The Tree of Life: The creation made living through truth and and knowledge. This is child's stuff....

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Actually one would think that God could do anything, even creating the conditions in which blood and guts gives us the power to think

My impression is evolution is real and made possible through creation, it is known the universe like the earth and all other aspects of this reality spins about its axis. As a result the Universe has the equivalent of a day.

What is known of the Universe is a sphere about 14 billion light years in circumference; as a result a day is much longer at the present time.

Fact of the matter is all things are different, so with respect to snowflakes, the phenomenon of each of them being different is no real mystery.

Any thoughts?

Also it says God saw all this was good, how is millions of years of death, famine, chemical reactions, pain and suffering good, its not.
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Again you show imaturityy. Without God we would never have existed. God saw that it was good. Who are you to judge God and his work? A blacksmith creates a hammer. It's a perfect hammer for it's purpose.

Okay, everyone, follow this: GOD is GOOD. GOD is PERFECT. GOD cannot make a mistake, because HE is GOD thee ALMIGHTY.

Please...

God saw the world was good, and made man in HIS image. Each of us, therefor, are touched with the Divine... SO then, why did GOD get pished off with HIS perfect creations? HE knew we'd eat from the Tree of Knowledge. If GOD is perfect, how can HIS creation be imperfect (ie, trying to kill all of us, because we didn't measure up). "And GOD looked down upon the world and saw that it was good". Yeah, okay. Remember, GOD is perfect, HE can't make mistakes, right?

GOD created the angels, AND DID NOT GIVE THEM FREE-WILL. How the heck did Lucifer convince a bunch of the angels to turn and rebel, IF THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE CHOICES (free-will) FOR THEMSELVES?

God is NOT PERFECT (that's why we have the platypus). GOD may have started a spark... but as an experiment; right now, HE is observing HIS culture tray, examining us... HE is doing what any biologist would do... let things run there course; and if that means evolution, then so be it.

"Can the creation arguement and evoulution coincide, are they both true to some extent."


Sure they can, so some think anyhow, including the Pope:
"Evo-Creation: Creation through Evolution"
Link:
www.mwillett.org...

"Quite surprisingly, there are still some scientists who make an attempt to demonstrate the good old method of reconciliation between God and man through science. These religious scientists claim that evolution is the definition of creation, concluding that God created all the living organisms through evolution. They argue vigorously to affirm Evo-Creation as the only possible theory which can explain the diversity and unity of life through natural selection with a definite initial divine intervention. At the same time, they use objective evidences such as comparative anatomy, embryology, and concepts such as homology and adaptive radiation to pinpoint evolution as the only explanation for biodiversity on Earth.

This kind of scientific-philosophical approach to the concept of creation through evolution reveals the fact about human struggle to find an answer to the question of �why� and �how� life originated on Earth. Frederick Hegel, a 19th century German philosopher, was the last thinker who used philosophy to reconcile God and man by presenting a systematic theory of existence. In spite of 30 years of thought experiment, Hegel failed to meet this objective. In the same manner as Hagel, some scientists from the late 20th century, attempted dynamically to conciliate both points of view, creation and evolution, about the origin of life. Theodosius Dobzhansky was one of those great scientists who failed to do so. Dobzhansky was a religious biologist who tried to understand that creation is realized in this world by means of evolution.

In his scientific papers, Dobzhansky uses divine fabrication of evidence as the antithesis of his argument, thus resurrecting the Hegelian concept of using a thesis and antithesis in order to create new knowledge through a synthesis of the two propositions. Divine fabrication of evidence is a very poor notion because the supposedly all-good creator should not seek to deceive his or her creatures. At the time (1973), Dobzhansky�s synthesis was a new concept known as Evo-Creation. However, he does not offer any evidence to support his claim. Dobzhansky instead distracts his readers by overwhelming them with facts and evidence about evolution rather than by elucidating the relation between God and evolution.

The title, �Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution� does not relate to the thesis of the essay in any way by articulating the simple truth about biology and evolution. That is how Dobzhansky cleverly diverts the thoughts of the readers and attempts to invalidate the concept of evolution without God. On one hand, Dobzhansky�s essay (Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution) is full of scientific facts that support the theory of evolution. On the other hand, it lacks any science that substantiates the notion of creationism, an issue which could and should have been discussed. In fact, diversity of living beings, unity of life, homology, species mutational distance, and adaptive radiation are among the evidence in support of evolution not of creation or the relation between evolution and creation.

On the whole, Dobzhansky�s claim is an ideal means to reconcile God and man through evolution. However, he does not offer any objective evidence of such an existence. Dobzhansky wants the best of both lives � life on Earth and life in heaven (if it exists at all). His essay is a philosophical abstract with overwhelming scientific facts and evidence about evolution while the scientific proof for creationism is treated inadequately in the article. The major assumption of the essay is the acceptance of the existence of God, the unconditional creator of life. Science refuses to deal with any abstract notion such as God, simply because abstraction does not exist in the realm of science.

Ironically, evolution as a factual process has shaped not only our physical bodies but also our minds and abstract beliefs such as Dobzhansky�s idea of Evo-Creationism. No wonder Pope John Paul II has accepted the idea of evolution as a divine process of creation. Having said all this, do you think that we can learn anything from Hegel�s philosophical failure to reconcile Man and God through science? Or was Hegel right when he said that we learn from history that man can never learn anything from history? I let you answer these two questions."


regards
seekerof


[Edited on 4-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Tassadar
This thread is about to get really ugly Adrian so I'll go ahead and throw this in right now...

The main foundation and "evidence" of the evolution theory is the fossil record which in fact contradicts itself.
The belief by the seventh day adventists that God's seven days were actually seven steps is false.
There were no Neanderthals running around yelling "hu-hu HU AH HAHHAHRREEEE!!!"
Man has been and always will be a sentient being.
If you need evidence for the creation side let me know, I was transferred through four biology teachers in high school and they hated bringing up evolution because they would get stumped every single time.

Creation.
- Tass

Then what about all the skulls and skeletons of Neanderthals and the one australopithecines skeleton? How do you explain those?

*15,15*
This may take a while, I'll be all in depth this time...


1. The Fossil Record.
The fossil record provides evidence for a complex, instantaneous creation. Why?
A: The lower geologic layers reveal a sudden proliferation of complex life forms with every phyla represented. This Cambrian Explosion or �Big Bang� of life is preceded by no simpler forms.
B: Today�s living forms show no change from their supposed ancient ancestors.
C: There are large and systematic gaps between the different kinds of fossils rather than gradual, evolutionary changes.

2. Irreducible Complexity
Prepackaged, highly engineered systems exist in our bodies that are so complex they defy evolutionary explanations. These systems involve integrated multiple parts and reactions that work together only as a whole. If you eliminate any one piece, none of the system works at all. Evolution supposedly operates by natural selection perfecting less developed systems. However, natural selection requires something working and in place to perfect! Examples in the human body are the immune system, blood clotting, and any one of hundreds of biochemical pathways.

3. Gaps in the Living World
If isolated members of a species change by evolutionary processes, the main population group can still continue. We should be able to read the history of the evolutionary progression right across the very top of the evolutionary branching tree. We can�t! Just as the fossil record contains large systematic gaps, the living world does too. We see evidence for creation of distinct kinds � not one kind changing into another.

4. Laws of Probability
The odds are enormously great against the successful occurrence of each of the myriads of needed evolutionary changes! Even the probability of 1 small protein occurring by accident is 1 chance out of 10260. Since we have thousands of even larger proteins, it is inconceivable they all happened by chance. Coupling that with intricate structures like eyes, wings, hearts, lungs, etc., the laws of probability scream out, �Creation!�

5. Law of Cause and Effect:
The Law of Cause and Effect is one of the best documented principles of science and of everyday experience. Every event must have a sufficient cause. Since the origin of the universe and the origin of life are events, they too must have a cause. The physical universe consisting of time, space, energy, and matter must all have a cause outside themselves. Likewise, life must have a living Cause. Following this reasoning to its logical conclusion, leads to an infinite, eternal, powerful, intelligent, living First Cause--our awesome Creator!

6. Chicken or Egg Principle
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? This question has plagued philosophers for a long time. The question is even deeper, however. Chickens have many proteins. Each protein is coded for by the DNA/RNA system. However, many specific proteins are needed in order to manufacture DNA/RNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA/RNA? The logical explanation is that they were both created.

7. Intelligent Design
Intelligent Design demands an Intelligent Designer. The airplane, computer, and digital camera originated not by random, undirected, chance processes, but by engineering genius. Such sophisticated acheivements however, pale in comparison to the extremely complex, systematically ordered, precision regulated systems of living tissue. The superior flight of the dragonfly, the mind boggling information mega-processor of the human brain, and the eye as a self-focusing, fully-automatic, high resolution, 3-D motion picture camera are the natural prototypes for our acclaimed tech marvels. It is scientifically inconceivable, unreasonable and illogical to credit blind, brainless chance as their maker. God alone is wise without limits, and deserves the Glory.

8. The Anthropic Principle
The Anthropic Principle observes that the universe, including our beautiful, blue planet appears to have been specifically designed for man to inhabit (just as Isaiah 45:18 says). Without the delicate balance of multitudes of physical properties, life would be impossible. Examples include the strength of the four basic forces in the universe (gravitational, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear forces), the size and shape of the earth, the distance from earth to sun, the tilt of the earth�s axis, the concentration of atmospheric gases, and the presence of abundant liquid water. It couldn�t just happen.

9. Information Theory
Information has intelligence as its source, not haphazard chaotic chance. A computer programmer instills purpose, plan, and design by implementing and organizing recognizable bits of data into an understandable language framework. In biological systems, information is encoded as DNA, the programmed software of cells. As evolutionist Dr . Micheal Denton says in his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, �The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram.� Since raw organic molecules have no intrinsic cognitive capacity, who injected the information into the DNA? God alone is able.

10. Extreme Complexity
Complexity beyond comprehension characterizes all life forms, including the so-called �simple cell.� As Dr. Micheal Denton states referring to the cell, �...we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity...beyond our own creative capacities.� Everything, from atomic structures to cells, organs, organ systems, and living creatures speaks of incredible order, balance, and unity as a whole.

Damn that was long!!
Anyone who has read that, I owe you a cookie...
Cheers,
- Tass *40 feeling good*

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye
Then what about all the skulls and skeletons of Neanderthals and the one australopithecines skeleton? How do you explain those?

*15,15*
Sorry maynard, just saw this...

You must have been misinformed my friend, for of the thirty one different "Neanderthals" found to date, only three have at least eighty percent of their bone structure...
Most of them are simply toes or fingers.
In a recent edition of National Geographic, a "feathered dinosaur" was illustrated on the front cover...
Beautiful drawing, the evidence, you'll laugh at the site

The foundation for this feathered raptor was one head, two wings, and a claw found together spread out over a two square mile area.
Talk about disinformation...
I expect they'll dismiss it as a hoax once they recieve enough letters to the editor.

*Side note: National Geographic was foudned for the purpose of proving evolution*

Cheers,
- Tass *40*

Actually, whales and dolphins are not good examples to suggest that the fossil record lacks intermediate types. In recent years numerous fossils of flippered quadrepeds have been examined, with a full range of types between land runners to streamlined swimmers. Not every dead animal gets fossilized and dug up and catelogued by a palentologist; It is actually something of a miricle that any do.

*15,15 stand strong*

Whales and dolphins hey?
Where did I use whales and dolphins? (or are you reffering to seek?)
Yes, they are perfect examples, as flippers do not appear on fossilized quadrapeds.
Flippers are skin and nerve tissue.
They are not preserved...
- Tass *40*

Edited because I thought I was in a different thread...I wish that "editing" also included the ability to completely delete a post like this...


[Edited on 4-10-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]

i dunno if i can trust the bible writings amanita muscaria use was popular back then, they could'a all been trippin out n seein this crazy # from god

With all knowledge available on genetic construction and DNA, as well as tracking our own species, and much simpler ones such as bacteria and viruses... it is impossible to deny the process of selective mutation and evolution, in principle.

Whatever any divine creator lent a hand in is a moot point. Think through this. No living human will ever have the accurate, conclusive answer to creation, frustrating as that may be. It all must still amount to dogma.

I say verily unto you - the bible is a BOOK. It is subject to all of the same human malformations, deformations, mistranslations, abject declarations, misinterpretations, collusions, re-interpretations, invalid validations, depredations, recreations, and whoring that any other book that is some 2000 years old is subject to. This is aside from ignoring the very obviously relevant other Christian/non-Christian (have you a problem with this fact? does your faith precede you? Do you not believe IN YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS?) interpretations of the Bible from such diverse religious sources as Protestantant, Catholic, Methodist, Quaker, ugh, must I go on? Must I mention the Nestorians? If you of ?neccesity pick a piece of history to go by unequivocally you could not have picked anything worse than the bible. It has been the most polictically contested piece of verse arguably in the history of western culture. I take that back; its not arguable. It is the single most contested piece of LITERATURE in western civilization. Period. I take this as self evident. As such, you truth seekers would be well advised to SEEK ELSEWHERE. Let those of you with ears hear me. Let those of you with eyes see me. The idea of the bible being somehow, somewhere, inarguable , is so sotted with riven dis-belief rot that I cannot begin to begin. The fish rots from the head. If you believe, wherefore so has your belief begotten you? In the immortal words - "God also hates fools." Think you not the revelation is DAILY! and what verily unto that hast thou rendered any bread unto the mouth of reason? Think you not that "he" thinketh ALSO? Those of true piety would immediatly recognize the human possibility (not certainty!) of frailty. Would this not also remonstrate your lack of faith in God"s certainty that you also should also Think? Why would he bless everyone with the ability to reason were it not also necessary? Your lack of "faith" disturbs me. The refusal of " our daily bread" is not a sin of omnision, it is a sin of commision by those who feel that the idolators are correct - let us worShip Gods faith in money, let us worship Gods faith in power, let us worShip Gods faith in falsehood. The inevitable collusion between the characters of ancient worShip and the modern lie is exposed before us all. None of us are taken by it, yet all are taken by it. How is this so? If you thought you had a God, then, do you not think he would require of you ONLY the best? why should he settle for those who think but nought and nigh? I say verily unto you: the chosen are not those who are chosen, they are those who HAVE chosen. Many are called but few CHOOSE. Pay heed. "He" has a care only to those who have a care. Is God's wrath so inscrutable? " For I have carried the fire only in his name, and verily I do so say unto you: only those who have also carried the Holy Flame shall pass. Those meek unto the flame shall not pass, and shall not be carried accross. For the flame burns, and: shall you fall into the holy circle of flame, and be lifted to the red eagle, or shall you fail, as unto yourselves, and be not lifted, only to the darkness? Only the holy flame shall carry, and those who do not raise themselves to the holy flame shall perish. And let it be said, that; that holy flame is reason. Reason inflicts the wounds that our creator god has decreed, and , that, who so ever resistith those wounds shall be cast out, as unto the darkness. and, who so ever shall perish in these wounds shall be risen up, as unto the mythical cross, the targeted analysis of YOUR OWN CREATOR "GOD:" you shall cease upon the ridiculous analysis of YOUR OWN WOUNDS.

I have a belief about how at least some of evolution and creation can coincide. I can't explain dinosaurs. Maybe there was a pre-adamic kingdom. But here's my personal belief:
When God created man he made him out of the dust of the earth and with age old enough to tell him to be fruitful and multiply. Therefore he did not create him as a baby, but with the power to procreate at a mature enough age to say go have sex. Eve was created with the age to bear children. He made the animals with an age. So what came first the chicken or the egg. According to the bible the chicken came first and then the ckicken lays an egg! So why do scientist want to move so far back wards and say where did the egg come from if it was before the chicken. Absurd. This is simple time-perspective reference anyone can fiqure out.
So here it is god making everything as with an age.
So what if he created the earth with age? And many things in it. I mean just how old is dirt anyways when you can make dirt?
What if he made the earth in motion revolving around the sun as we all know. Of course he didn't make it at a stand still because we know it says he made day and night.
What I'm saying is maybe it's just somewhat a clockwork universe he created.
And even if the big bang is correct then who created the infinate space beyond it at the so called beginning of time. The bible says he alway was ,is and always will be!
What if God made the galaxy far away with light already in motion. It says he created light. What if he made that galaxy too with age?
Basically I think the more complex that you make something, then the more it can possibly, but not always, loose it's real value. Simplicity Rules.
Take for instance a pop song with only a few different cords with simple lyrics that anybody can play,sing or memorize... now it becomes popular and everyone loves it.
Then take Chopin playing a million different notes and it gets complex... you loose the majority of the American population. Only a few people can appleciate complexity and all it's forces. (by the way I have 40 classical CDs and like the stuff too)

I'm not saying the bomb never landed and pearl harbor and advanced knowledge is false. I'm simply saying what if we all study and theorize this stuff so much that we all turn into a slim-faced starving looking 'Data' on Startrek. How much would you pay for real food like a common hamburger in space when there isen't a cow around. Are we going to bring a cow up to space with us now?

So god even says he let adam name the animals. We didn't come from speechless humans. He made adam and eve with decision making abilities. And speech abilties to name every living thing at the time.

However, here's a middle of the road line... Aren't you glad adam ate the apple and we do have the knowledge of good and evil. I mean free will and discernment. He maybe we won't live for ever now, but now we have cars, houses, toilet paper for god's sake. If they had never ate the forbidden fruit then we would all still be living in the forest butt naked having wild sex and using a leaf to wipe our butt!
So I think free will is good. And who really know the truth that far back in life what happened unless you were alive thousands,million,billions of years ago and are still alive today.

The word Evolution simple means to change. I still believe in things like how natural errosion can happened and things like that but once again what if god created the Great Canyon with age.

Maybe all this is just to leave people in amazement and adventure the rest of our lives.

I'm a christian and I really don't care if God comes back tomorrow or a million years from now. I really don't want to die and go to heaven. I want to stay alive as long as I can and enjoy life on the earth as we know it. And then I hope maybe he lets me in when its my time as to say.

One of the things that really made me think hard about my beliefs was the concept of a mental institution.

What did man know about mental illness 2000 years ago? I know they recognized that some people were out of it but what did they use to determine someones sanity?

They really had poop nuggets in the way of medicine to deal with mental conditions. Using the Bible as an example but not to be the only example of Creationism, someone coming up to you telling you they saw a bush on fire talking to you I mean come on. Whats up with that?

I just do not think you can put that on the same shelf as a study of fossils.

Burning bush talking to you VS. Categorization and study of the fossil record

How do you put them together?