Can the creation arguement and evoulution coincide, are they both true to some extent.

So many people say that Genisis is just a picture of what happened, sybolstic and nothing more, how can this be? it is either truth or lie. Evoulution and the creation theory can not coincide. why? because in Genisis it contradicts science, light (1st day)was made before the stars(4th day) , there was nothing for the light to come from. Also it says God saw all this was good, how is millions of years of death, famine, chemical reactions, pain and suffering good, its not. now you could say, the bible is compleat lies, that the big bang caused everything. Where did the chemicals come from? Where did God cme from? both of these are strong arguements, therefor it takes jst as much faith to believe in science as it does in God, apart from the fact of the complexity of the universe, science knows very little still, we do not know how every part of our cells work, we do not know the chemical reactions for storing memory, science is not a compleate theory, whereas the bible is, science is what I believe to be the foundations for Gods creation, his laws, but if he created them why is it that ppl find it so hard that he can brake them by rising from the dead? If Genisis is but storys how do u explain the Jewish nation? if the bible is false how did a man over 80 years old become a farther by a woman the same age to give birth to the Jewish nation? Finnaly then how can we know what parts of the bible are true and which parts are not, we know all to be true because we know parts to be true, and if the rest were not true the other parts would make no sense, believe in full or dont believe, but yeah, what are ur thoughts on creation, do u believe the 7 day creation theory or the evolution theory? speak!

[Edited on 28-9-2003 by Adrianay]

This thread is about to get really ugly Adrian so I'll go ahead and throw this in right now...

The main foundation and "evidence" of the evolution theory is the fossil record which in fact contradicts itself.
The belief by the seventh day adventists that God's seven days were actually seven steps is false.
There were no Neanderthals running around yelling "hu-hu HU AH HAHHAHRREEEE!!!"
Man has been and always will be a sentient being.
If you need evidence for the creation side let me know, I was transferred through four biology teachers in high school and they hated bringing up evolution because they would get stumped every single time.

Creation.
- Tass

The attached link should make for a good start...

web.mit.edu...

Wow,where to start.As I look around at the things around me I see life in one form or another.Intricate life.Life that is so diverse and beautiful it begs to be recognized by the rest of Creation.the delicacy and hardiness so interwoven and complex we (humanity)want to duplicate it.We want to design life.We want to be as the Creator.We want it to be perfect,like the creator.
Genesis 3:1-6 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The emphasis here is in vs.5.
Is the Bible correct in its account of creation and everthing else that has followed and is to follow?Yes.
Mankind has not changed sinceGen 3-vs 5.We still want to be god(s)and because we cannot we deney the existance and diety of God the Father,Jesus The Christ and the Holy Spirit.

[Edited on 29-9-2003 by preacherman]

This next link is extensive but does pretty well in presenting the issue from the context of the
evolutionist.

It would be very interesting to view the responses in respect to this one...


Creation Science Debunked

[Edited on 29-9-2003 by Toltec]

LMAO!

People who believe in creation crack me up. It's really kinda cute, actually, but funny at the same time.

Not trying to be disrespectful here, I mean, I have family members who believe the same thing. But I can characterize these family members all the same way: the go to church at least 2-3 times a week, yet have never been to college. They teach "bible study" courses, yet they hold no certification for indicating they are qualified to do so. They are mostly over 55 years of age. They mostly have very little else in their life besides their church and their belief system.

Go to college, take some courses in biology, geology, and archeaology. If you dont like your teachers, try another school. Gain knowledge through the accepted mainstream, then go outside and pick up a few rocks. Engage your mind and THINK about what you are looking at. Is it mysterious? Is it heavenly? Does it require a LEAP OF FAITH?

NO! It is just a rock. A rock, maybe, with a fossil of a trilobite imbedded in it. Use your knowledge. Figure it out.

God put us on this planet with a thinking and problem-solving mind so that we could grow, nurture each other, and become closer to him as we journey through life. Evolution is not heresey, no more than any other scientific theory such as gavitation, matter and energy. These are all things that God created for us. He wants us to explore our world, discover new things, and understand His universe. As we uncover more and more, we understand more and more about the nature of God and the universe he created.

Science is the lens by which we gaze at God's glorious hidden creations.

Despite what the Bible says, most rational, education people do not believe that the world was created in 7 days. Nor do they believe that the Earth is about 10,000 years old. Science has revealed that the Earth is much older, and that God's master plan to create us out of the nothingness of the Earth's dust took slightly longer than a moment.

That in of itself does not diminish God's divinity in any way, nor does it affect the beliefs of millions of God-fearing people who accept the standards of world science.

The science/evolution people "crack me up" sometimes as well because they have gone from forming hypothesis, doing reasearch, and presenting facts to covering up non-supportive research, politcal favoritism, and defending a debunked theory because of who formulated it. Not true scientist mind you but those in power, mostly politicians who fight every last breath to keep their pet theories taught in classrooms while at the same time knowing how false they are. Charles Darwin himself abandoned evolution before his death as further research he did began to question many things that are today spouted as truth. Ever hear a Geologist try to expalin the weathering of the Sphinx to an Egyptologist? Its a riot and usually ends with the Geologist wondering why the hell they even called him out there to begin with.

I'm not saying its all wrong but so many Phds with so much riding on defending their little theories and grant money, they can't let truth be told. For my two cents, I think these two can and do relate but the people on both sides who mire the truth for their own purposes will never let it be known. The missing link will remain missing because it never existed..not in nature. I think there is a big picture to all this that relates creation to natural selection and that time and its measure may be the key.

i think the "creation" theory isn't even creation, it's symbolic of the beginning of life, it's perfect till u eat the apple of realization of earthly #, then the rest of the biblical writings are to assist people in "the quest for the holy grail" which is the oneness, the perfection of eden. i think the bible is but a writing of the old ones which has been passed down through the ages to assist people in discovering the knowledge of the ancient world, so i believe that the "creation" story can easily coincide with evolution, i don't believe the bible to be historical fact any more than i believe fairy tales to be true, however they hold the same meaning(s) in some way or another

Evolution and Creationism can be shoe-horned together, but only if you're willing to ignore facts... Oddly enough, many are perfectly comfortable doing so. Can they co-exist? Yes. Can they co-exist logically? No.

The Bible Was Written By The Same People That Believed The Earth To Be Flat. this Among other Things Should Say A Whole Lot About How Truthful It Is. The Bible Is Just Some Ones Opinion. Some One Long Ago Decided To Write A Book Saying how The Felt On Issues Involving God And Now We As A Society Worship Around It

Originally posted by tealc
The Bible Was Written By The Same People That Believed The Earth To Be Flat. this Among other Things Should Say A Whole Lot About How Truthful It Is. The Bible Is Just Some Ones Opinion. Some One Long Ago Decided To Write A Book Saying how The Felt On Issues Involving God And Now We As A Society Worship Around It

Ok yres people at that time believed the earth to be flat. You got one thing right. U say that The bible is just someones opinion, someone long ago decided to write a book involving God and now we as a society worship it. The bible was written by 40 authors over a period of 2000 years, so it is not one persons book. The bible was written by people and may just seem to be boring, bt I ask you have you ever read it? do you even know wat you talk bout when u refer to the bible. It contains an extreamly accurate history of the Jewish nation which can be traced, also contains songs, it is a love letter from God to his world that has turned its back on him.

i don't believe the bible to be historical fact any more than i believe fairy tales to be true (banjoechef)

Then how do u explain the Jewish nation, Jesus, the fuffilment of prophacies, the life changing effect God has on ppl through it. it backs itself up even from the beggining, if any of u can be bothered find the origional meanings for the names in Genisis up to Noah, it shows Gods plan for the saving of the world. If it were only fairytales, why is it that still philosiphers do not understand many parts in full, why is it that a carpenter born in bethlehem is not only remembered but the whole dating system is around his birth, why is it that the words of one man were so influencial that they are still remembered today and known by billions?

Before you say I am one sided, which is true coz iv made up my mind on ths matter, you have to know that I found the 7 day creation theory hard to believe at first, bu like someone on this post has said, darwin didnt even believe in his theory, there are many things missing in science and we do not have all knowledge. We do not know for example how memorys are chemically stored or how and why they are lost. I love learning about science, I belive it imortant to understand as much about it as possible, but the fact of the matter remains in my eyes as clear as day that evoulution is being taught religiously, it is but a theory, I could be wrong in thinking the 7 day creation theory is tru. People are taught that evoulution is absoulute truth when it is only a theory and can not be proven to the extent of certainty, for example we do not know how the cell wall first came to being and allowed more complex chemical reactions to take place. Evoulution has many holes that blind cover with fear of real truth.


[Edited on 29-9-2003 by Adrianay]

From reading Genesis, the 6 days of creation are a fundamental guide to "evolution".

1. The heavens were first-the universe came into being.

2. The sun-as the msses of dust gathered, some would attract others, growing in mass... the larger the mass, the more energy... ie the stars.

3. The earth-the sun's gravitational pull gathered more of the clouds to itself, forming comets, planets.

4. the waters-with the earth forming, comets crashed into the surface, releasing its ice... gases from the subsurface were thrust into the air... turbulance, storms, rain.

5. the creatures of the sea-basic lifeforms... simplest bacteria, plantlife (algea). Oxydition of the air.

6. the creatures of the land-life escaping the seas, adapting to enviroments... evolving.

7. the creatures of the air-read #6.

8. man-most evolved of the animals.

Now, I know I listed "8" steps, as opposed to the "6"... but as writing in the bible, this is the order in which things were created. Expand on the ideas, and you have evolution. Simplify them, you have creation. What's the difference? Text.

(Personally, I believe we were genetically created to be a slave race... made whatever sources were available, but that's just me)

Something, somewhere, had to start something. We've seen bacteria evolve in labs, mice have been shown to carry ancestorial memories, improving maze times... fruit flies mutate and evolve what... every other generation? Evolution is proven... but what it can't prove is where we all started from.

That is where God comes in. No matter how he did it, from sneezing out the universe, to scratching dandruff to form the stars, there had to be a spark. God gave up on us... what... two times? Why couldn't he just went *bam*, formed the world, and left it as that? (two times, ie, the flood, and Jesus).

Now, the question I pose to you, is where did God come from? If He always existed... then why couldn't the universe have always been as well? Maybe, just maybe, our beliefs in Him was what created Him in the first place? They always tell you, if you believe in something hard enough, it'll happen...

Originally posted by soothsayer
God gave up on us... what... two times? Why couldn't he just went *bam*, formed the world, and left it as that? (two times, ie, the flood, and Jesus).

Now, the question I pose to you, is where did God come from? If He always existed... then why couldn't the universe have always been as well? Maybe, just maybe, our beliefs in Him was what created Him in the first place? They always tell you, if you believe in something hard enough, it'll happen...

Jesus coming down was not God giving up on us, it was his rescue plan for the world. You ask me where did God come from, where did the chemicals to create the big bang come from, these arguements level each other out so I prefer to leave them aside. U say if you believe in something hard enough itl happen, how can you explain someone who had been dead for 3 days being risen from the dead by the power of God? Belif alone cannot raise the dead. Finally the bible says that the light was created before the stars, therefor creation and evoulution can not co-exist, although i do as many others belive in adaption rather than evoulution.

I have several point I always like to make when discussing this particular topic. They make you think about things from both sides of the puzzle.

1. The bible does not say how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. It very well could have been a very long time before they were kicked out, and forced into mortality.

2. It does not say the Garden of Eden covered the entire Earth. As a matter of fact we are led to believe that the Garden of Eden did not in fact encompass the entire earth. After Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, and an Angel was placed there to keep them from comming back.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If the Garden of Eden did not cover the whole planet, during this unkonwn period of time, things could have gone on quite normally on the rest of the planet.

3. Where are all the missing links in the evolutionary theory? If you say that a Dolphin evolved from a sea animal that mutated into a prehistoric land herbivore, then mutated and returned to the ocean... there should be a link between these three animals.

There should be a land mammal somewhere in the fossil record that has some aquatic charasteristics. It did not one day just drop its fur, add a layer of blubber, and sprout a dorsal fin.

I am not quite sure about this whole speciation thing. Natural Selection maybe, but not speciation.

4. Dating based on elemental decay (such as carbon-14) assumes a set ammount of the element to be present in the atmosphere at the time the thing was formed or lived. Nobody really knows what happened in the history of the earth, or what crazy stuff happened to raise, lower, or otherwise fluctuate carbon levels in the atmosphere.

For starters...think about this. Science studies fossils with radiocarbon dating which basically studies at what rate a carbon molecule decays when irradiated...using present rate of decay in our atmosphere. So...let's say this...back before the Great Flood and Noah's ark...the atmosphere was different...more plants...jungle like...with no oceans...the water is beneath the dry earth...no rain.. so it would be misty. That would aslo mean that the atmosphere was made up of differently that today's chemical compound...therefore decays at a different rate. In essence...radiocarbon dating doesn't prove anything...dinosaurs and all living creatures (except for what was on the ark of course) were wiped out in the Great Flood...settled to the bottom of the waters that covered the entire earth...and then were churned about in the layers of mud before the waters receded. The Great Flood occurs by the earth splitting open and releasing the majority of the water onto the dry earth and even into space...including chunks of rock....being today's meteors...and water...being today's comets. This also caused the earth to change shape and become more volatile forming volcanoes...oceans...mountains...etc. I don't think Darwin would have a good answer for "Which came first...the chicken or the egg?"...do you? They both came at the same time...they were created by God. Here's a clinker...how did the complex eyeball evolve? Evolutionist don't have the faintest idea where to start with that one. Anyhoo...check out this website...Creation Science ...it goes into much more detail than I could explain...Check it out!!

[Edited on 30-9-2003 by xenongod]

to understand?

Any "thinking" individual surely by now realizes that evolution and creationism go hand in hand.

To think that one "day" man just popped in as God snapped his fingers are taking the writings of man way to literally.

God did snap his fingers and got all this started. However, over a period of billions of years we have evolved into what the world is today. It continues to evolve as does man.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Any "thinking" individual surely by now realizes that evolution and creationism go hand in hand.

God did snap his fingers and got all this started.

To prove that for the "thinking individual" you have to prove (without using Bible or other religious sources) that God exists in such a way that's replicatable and proveable. In other words, that the ONLY solution to the problem is "god" and you identify some being called "god" and show measurable evidence (no religious books, no "feelings" allowed as proof) that can be repeated (as in you call out "Hey God!" and thunder sounds every single time.)

It also has to be Falsifiable -- there has to be a counterargument destroyed and in this case it's "God did NOT create the universe." It has to be done by measurements and observations and you can't use any religious books and it has to be repeatable.

Our existance is a test to see how we will act outside of his presence. The whole point is to see if you will believe or not. Will you follow him or not. To have physical proof of his existance would defeat the purpose.

Besides, If I were to say that I had seen God, or I know of someone who had physically seen God, you wouldn't believe me anyway. If I were to tell you that someone saw him in the woods one morning, or say that I did have some type of proof, you would laugh and tell me that I was crazy. If I were to say that he had delivered a new piece of scripture, or written me a letter, or something, what would you do? See what I mean? You are most likely already laughing.

What type of proof would satisfy an unbeliever? None. Without faith, nobody would believe the hardest piece of physical evidence. All they would do is brush it casually aside in some faithless fashion.

God does exist. I cannot prove it. And if I could it wouldn't matter, because without some type of faith you would not believe me anyway. This entire post is a waste of time.

[Edited on 1-10-2003 by lonestar]

Someone once told me a long time ago that God, in all his wonder, had many names. But perhaps the best name ever devised by man for Him is "The Prime Mover".

All matter and energy in the universe is in a constant state of flux, resonation, and movement. No matter is ever really still, or motionless.

To me, creation can be best described as the FIRST time something move. Before creation, there was NOTHING. True void and lack of motion. Then something MOVED. From Point A to Point B. What could possible do that? Turn empty, motionless void into vibrant, chaotic matter and energy?

The Bible tells us:

"And the earth (universe) was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep (existance). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (universe).

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

Genesis describes (albeit somewhat vaguely) what I just said. The Prime Mover is God, and God is The Prime Mover.

Much of what the Bible tells us is essentially true, it is just oversimplified due to the lack of understanding of the men who were inspired to write it. I won't condem the Bible as wrong, because the great men who wrote it were of a simpler time, where science was only in its infancy. On the same token, the Bible is full of gaps and questions, and science is helping us to understand what the Bible authors left out.

Look in the mirror, look around you,.

Why is each of trillions of snowflakes different?

Very simple answers.

Why does one close their mind to the existence of God?

What makes you think?

You do realize everything in this universe is an illusion don't you? Held together by God.

What gives one the power to think, to feel? Certainly not blood and guts.